Well, you're right, I don't like emus very much. Their simple nature makes them low hanging fruit for DTG and not very interesting to drive for players like me. I decry the way TSW has become an ever-shrinking circle of commuter routes and traction. It started out 7 years ago as a fairly well - rounded mix of diesel loco, dmus and some electric trains, and the very definite promise of steam. Seven years later there's very little variety. I also realize that those of us who want steam, diesel and freight are banging our heads against a brick wall. The profit motive and demand for what I call " toy trains " is unstoppable. Doesn't stop me complaining and campaigning though. I have my opinion and you and others have yours. That's how the forum works, right?
Steam adds plenty of realism, they still run often on the mainline doing heritage tours here in the UK. It's not just that though, there's a lot of potential in steam era routes just sitting there due to DTG's recent (bad) decision on steam traction. They need to start working on the steam core, that needs to happen. Even if DTG don't make anymore steam routes or locomotives, they should at least provide a good foundation for third parties to work from. Calling steam a waste of time is complete and utter nonsense.
I want DTG and partners to make a variety including one handled EMUs and steam engines. Clearly one handled EMUs sell otherwise they wouldn't make them. I like driving them but don't want them to be the only items in DTGs catalogue going forward, which I doubt will be the case but probably heavily skewed in that direction. I do think DTG have neglected older traction too much and their pronouncements regarding steam are regrettable and short sighted in my opinion. Despite it's faults I marvelled at the experience when driving a Jubilee on SOS the first time, it had great potential. The noise, the swaying and movement of the cab, the view forward (so much better then TSC). It is a great shame it has all been shelved. I hope either DTG think again or third parties take up the mantle as I feel TSW should be a sim showing off the variety of railways around the world over the years, as much as is reasonable to expect of course. I think it is going in the wrong direction if it becomes more niche in the future and mainly reflects the present day.
Abandoning steam was a major mistake in my opinion. Between the abandonment of steam and US freight, the variety of DTG's TSW DLCs seems to shrink. The only positive trend of DTG's DLCs for me right now is the (apparent) increased willingness for (semi-)vintage German content.
I mean I cannot speak for the official third parties as it might be that they have different support and documentation avalaible, but at least for the people in the PC Editor community who maybe would even want to produce more such locos, simply can't because DTG never really explained their own simugraph system and teached how to use it. That's the core issue, why the potential of TSW will never be as high as possible. Because they literally prevent the people interested in doing that, from doing that. There is a recent question regarding exactly this issue: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/dtg-please-help-with-simugraph.80017/ What is Simugraph? Once I read through the DTG have abandoned Steam thread but correct me if I'm wrong, but no DTG employee ever stated in that thread or everywhere else here in the Forum officially that steam sold poor. People cite a source from the Discord servers if I recall correctly, but where is the official confirmation that steam wouldn't sell? Where is it? Maybe the reason why steam isn't the best choice is because it takes way more effort and cost to create it in comparison to a one handle EMU. Research and the special production of steam might be the real reason why it isn't DTG's best friend, but not the actual sales.
I believe PFR didn't sell well, from what I've read but I suspect that might have been down to a) steam not being in the best state and b) the route being, not an odd choice but the scope of the modelled area being unusual. I might be wrong. Then again if it sold poorly why is a third party making an add-on for it? Steam is popular in TSC, the freeware and third party scene is buzzing I would say. There was much excitement in the build up to SOS so I find it hard to believe that route was a failure. I don't have the figures though. Maybe it didn't sell well, however the sparse timetable missing services didn't help. I thought simugraph had been adapted to work for steam, but I might have misread that and it is far outside my area of knowledge to know for certain. Steam will take more effort as it is more complex and of course period routes take more research so I guess you need to have a bit of a historian in you. But I would hope the reward of recreating a piece of history would be motivation enough, with the caveat of course that it sells.
Exactly, DTG had our backside annoyed telling us how great and wonderful steam would be and to have in our collection, then the next minute they declare it is our fault for not buying it and they dropped it. Same will probably happen with the suspension.
SOS didn't sell well because it was abandoned straight after release, evidenced by nothing being added to the route since. PFR didn't sell well because the steam physics were botched up worse and the scope of the route was weird. Neither didn't sell well because people didn't want them, they didn't sell well because they were abandoned and the steam physics were botched. That's a broad assumption. I play TSW to experience what I can't or don't in real life, and I imagine others do the same. Either that, or they want to relive a bygone era. Might be a bit of a shock to you, but not everyone wants to drive modern trains. There's probably those outside these forums who want something different as well.
I was really looking forward to driving steam in TSW. Finally, my opportunity to get behind the controls of a steam engine became a reality rather than a dream.. Then, everything else happened.
Why is it shortsighted? I also play race games and they are also not filled with Benz velo's and Ford T models. The tracks are not the dirt tracks used back in the day but the modern updates. They don't even include chariots whilst everyone knows the chariot is the OG nascar. The game is called Train Sim World not The History of Trains or Steam Train Simulator and we all know Train Sim Classic was already taken. I think a dedicated steam train game sounds more logical than trying to put steam trains in a game that is mostly about "current" day trains. I'm not saying there is no place for steam trains in video games but TSW did not make me fall in love with steam trains. Presentation wise it just clashes. TSW doesn't look like it was built to play with steam trains. It's like "just pretend you are in the olden days" TSW did not bring me to the olden days.
I suspect the real reason for steam's abandonment is that steam routes are more complex and expensive to make. Look at the Liverpool routes and Peak Forest - more track, more signals, more stations, more station buildings, more yards than an equivalent modern route. Since the 1960s most stations and track layouts have been reduced in size and complexity because of a fall in general goods traffic and to save costs. That reduction in complexity saves sim developers money too... Remember 1950s historic routes also take more effort to research. You can't just look out of the window or find a cab ride video on the internet.
This. The trains in the area where I live are a wonderful mix of GWR Hitachi (when not on strike) a 158 or 165/6 on the Melksham Flyer or 59/66 on freight workings. But I can think back to my younger days and travelling around behind and observing a rich variety of motive power, particularly on trips to the north and west of Scotland. Now admittedly I’m not that old I can remember steam in service on the main line but I have popped my head round the door at various preserved railways plus the odd trip on the main line (before it got priced out the market) and it was glorious. To me both of those are far more important when simulating railways as part of a hobby. Or to put it another way, if I was to build a model railway (something else in danger of pricing itself out of existence), I highly doubt I would be filling the layout with 21st century rolling stock.
Yes and also unlike a modern train service where you can pop into a station to get dimensions and references, see trains etc. Dovetail have to try and dig up the past by looking at historic documents and what they can't find I am sure they fill in the blanks as much as they can, but I am sure they can't get it 100% right and maybe this is why the vintage tracks are sparce? They are not sure what to put in?
This! I was very surprised with the Blackpool route because this route brought me to a time that I could imagine although I have no knowledge of that route. I did not have that feeling with Spirit of Steam. To me SOS looked like a theme park ride instead of some historic route.
Blackpool Branches is a perfect example of a historical route that's been given the care and attention it deserves. Unfortunately, steam era content hasn't been given that sort of chance. DTG saying in the preview stream that they didn't improve the steam simulation between SoS and PFR was a red flag, it would've ruined PFR's sales before the route even came out. Same again with Flying Scotsman, only this time they removed the animated fireman... Despite DTG saying in the SoS lead up articles that "Steam locomotives will get the care and attention that they, and the players deserve" - They certainly didn't walk the walk, the whole thing is a mess and it needs fixing.
Thats a valid factor for sure, more effort for research and less informations available. Getting the cab rides out of books . That leads to the question who is paying for a higher price on steam / era related dlcs? I for my self would pay double for a solid steam route in the quality of blackpool branches. But only if there is a full steam experience with the manual firing.
And I thought I was a cynic! I believe DTG is more than capable of creating a highly realistic steam train given the right tools and however much time it takes. The initial attempt at steam wasn’t great but I feel like it’s in a much better place now. Think of it how Matt put it some time ago; they have the basis for steam now so it can only improve from now on. (If, that is, DTG does begin to work on steam again in the future) they won’t have to start from scratch again.
Not sure how it is in a better place now, it has been stopped, no more development, it isn't in any place at the moment. Unless the whole announcement was a red Herring or they have changed their minds I see no improvements coming and see no reason to believe there will be any more DTG steam content, maybe by third parties. They don't appear to be able so fix the issues with steam as they stand or they have given up for some reason, maybe the departure of Mr. Jackson and the new owners was the reason. Whatever the reason is, it is short sighted in my opinion. Normally I am a glass half full person where TSW is concerned but I see no reason to be where steam content is concerned, at the moment.
I meant the locomotives currently in the sim. One thing for example, I’ve fallen completely in love with the 4F on Peak Forest. The 8F is really great fun as well. DTG could, for all I care, continue to build and release future stream to the same standard as the ones listed above and I wouldn’t be dissatisfied. But that’s not to say the current concerns are not valid. I recognize that steam is not perfect but for a some players it seems it’s “good enough” not to cease production of it altogether.
I think you fundamentally don't understand how SimuGraph works. If you have the ability to add new nodes - which you can't in the public editor - then SimuGraph doesn't force you to do anything. You could exactly imitate the steam simulation of TSC. Fundamentally all both are doing is moving numbers and altering them.
That's what a computer does - altering numbers. Still not every software is suitable for any task. For the reasons I gave (which are of course my humble opinion) and DTG's own statements plus statements of other developers who rejected the idea of improving the Steam simulation, saying it's fundamentally "borked", I think the matter steam engines is closed for TSW.
Before any more steam which we have a fair amount of we need a electric loco!! Just something that isn't a 66
To be honest I wouldn't be bothered if they continued to release steam in the state it is in, it is driveable. But they won't, they have said they won't. There is so much potential DLC they could make, especially for SOS which is empty and is a route I have uninstalled as I can't see me playing it again. After the hype over it I do feel DTG have let us down a bit, well a lot to be honest. The one aspect I wish they would fix, if nothing else, are the silent AI steam engines, when the new class 104 pack comes out it is going to be very immersion breaking passing silent steam engines hauling heavy trains.
I also wonder how much experience DTG staff have of railways before the 1980s. Some of the scenery on SOS was very questionable. DTG even claimed lineside fencing didn't exist on parts of the route in 1958 - actually fencing has been a legal requirement on all main line British railways since 1844. That's an obvious point if you lived through the steam era of the 1950s, but no so obvious if you were born in 1983.
Vintage trains and routes are some of best stuff a simulation can bring. Because you cant see them in their authentic historical environment anymore today. So trainsims give us the opportunity to get into a time machine to get something from that former time. And that not like by watching a documentary. No it give us virtual interaction with that historical environment. Sure not all is perfect simulated. But what is ever perfect in real?
Thank you for explaining what a vintage route is but as I said: It's filled with vintage trains. Vintage trains is not something absent from TSW. There are even many steam trains. It's not like steam is forgotten part of rail history in TSW. But there is a lot of stuff still missing from TSW. Japan for example is at this moment still entirely missing from the game. I prefer more countries over steam. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was never an intention to build American steam because of many issues that come with it. If I think of steam trains I think of the wild west. From a commercial standpoint that would be a steam route that is still missing from TSW. Steam means another UK route. Nothing against UK routes I love them but so many places still missing from TSW that I rather have them investing time in bringing new countries to the game over another steam route set it in the same era in the same country.
This. By putting the kybosh on future steam traction they have effectively killed off any further period routes, like the Somerset and Dorset, Great Central or even a nice GWR branch line to potter along. Also effectively means no Welsh narrow gauge as previously mentioned, no one is going to want to drive the Festie or WHR with a diesel. And that’s just for the UK. No steam means no Brocken mountain line for Germany or a heritage line in the USA/Canada. Think they are being more than a bit pig headed over this and I would certainly compromise my expectations to get another iconic steam route in there with different traction to what we already have. Maybe go back to the drawing board and do what they should have done rather than “Jackson’s Folly”, a short but interesting branch line with a couple of tank locos, see how that sells.
Yes, I don't particularly want routes I can travel every day. I want to experience the Midland and Great Northern Joint from South Lynn to Cromer, the GC London extension or the Bath branch of the Somerset and Dorset - legendary routes that closed before I was born. That's why the Peak line is my favourite... despite some poor steam physics.
Indeed. PFR is one of the few routes I actually finished Journey mode on. That it apparently failed commercially was no fault of those of us who purchased it. No the flawed implementation, running from nowhere to half somewhere, the lack of a green diesel layer and no Buxton shuttles was what pushed it down. The 4F was tragically under utilised being largely confined to shunting and banking duties when it should have been allowed to get a bit of main line service in. Should have layered across to SoS maybe even getting its own Journey element. Being able to experience long closed routes is one of the things I enjoy most in these games. Why I built the SMJ network back in MSTS and enjoy routes like the Port Road and Wycombe line in TSC.
A very good example of what I mean. The "what now?" routes This probably is all very historic in the UK but it is very niche. No historic value to me whatsoever. Seen one, seen them all. The Orient Express I know. Makes more sense to me to build that one than some railway that used to run in someone's backyard.
But that is down to the game catering for all tastes. I happen to enjoy the overall experience TSW offers, so why should I have to go to TSC or even older MSTS/OR to drive a steam train or vintage route? Also an option not available to console users. And assuming you are from Belgium (great country, even greater beer), wouldn’t you like to see something like the Vennbahn to drive in TSW?
I have been advocating already along time to do one of the most iconic railways in the world. Antwerp - Brussels. You could do that line in all the era's. Going from steam to vintage to modern day. You would have a blast with this rolling stock trough the era's. But that's my backyard so maybe a bit to niche
It's about expectation levels again. I agree that they have over promised and under delivered on quite a bit of the steam era stuff, but as above, I'd not completely abandon it. Currently I would settle for a whole group of new steam trains, without the fireman or improved physics. Give me the Mallard, Duchess of Sutherland, Castles, Halls and Manors, saddles and panniers. I would love to see the SVR as the next heritage railway to run these on. I'd happily take that as it is now. But 90% of the people on here would loose their shite over it and put DTG on blast for multiple things. As such it's an unwinnable argument and they don't invest in it. I would love to see something as busy as BML but in the steam era. I also think PFR is a great route, very scenic, just needs layers to fill it out. Just look at the recent release threads or Roadmap comments, bunch of grumpy old men!
Years ago I played the SIAM vintage Brighton traffic simulation game. Loads of trains with both EMU and many steam hauled services. Constant flow of trains, locos on and off shed, shuffling around on carriage pilot duties etc. Problem is, to do it justice would need four or five new train types and not just the steamers.
I think there are historic routes that could be done for a viable cost. Take the Midland and Great Northern Joint: The physical infrastructure of the route is covered in the minutest detail in a two volume study. Plus there are albums and albums of photographs, a historical society and a museum to support research. The infrastructure was relatively simple as it was a country railway endlessly swapping between double and single track. Apart from Melton Constable, track layouts were simple. Yet the holiday trains made it a very busy and hard to operate route. Keeping time was often difficult with "block to block" working - so lots of signal checks. By the end in 1959 one type of locomotive ran most of the serviced - the Ivatt 4MT. However the 8F, 4F and 101 all appeared, which we already have. The research resources are there, the route is very busy yet relatively simple, most of the rolling stock already exists, it requires just one new loco, and it's very famous because the North Norfolk Railway has preserved the seaside section. Surely that would be viable?
Honestly, I'm in agreement here. I was fine that steam wasn't complete on Spirit of Steam's release as my expectation was that there would be improvements to the physics, manual firing, sounds, AI, etc with each following release. I feel the initial release of steam was biting off more than they could chew. Just dropping it like they have really left a nasty taste and has really dented my opinion of DTG overall. I've said before but I would've gone for a rural GWR branch, a pannier tank (maybe a 14XX for a second locomotive), some coaching stock, a few plank wagons and a toad van. Then do a few follow-up GWR releases that build off the foundation that the first route started, eventually culminating in a TSW Riviera in the 50's using all the stock released so far for layers. Instead DTG, went for the busy mainline route first without building up the stock to fill it in.
If steam returns via DTG or a 3rd party, I'm hoping the first new loco is some sort of shunting/minor goods engine. I'll be a little disappointed if it's yet another large tender engine. I'm definitely in the mood for the likes of a Pannier/Terrier with a couple of coaches.
There's no evidence that those devs were blaming Simugraph rather than DTG's specific implementation of steam within it, though. DTG promised to finish steam. They did not promise to add more electric locos.
Me too. Not necessarily in the form of updates but certainly in the form of future routes. Take the German Br 185. The initial models on RSN and MSB were pretty unsatisfactory in terms of physics. However, DTG didn’t abandon 3 phase AC electric locos but instead built upon the earlier iterations delivering good results with DRA’s 185. That is what I expected to happen with steam.
