Fictional Or Half-fictional Routes: Would You Buy It?

I must persuade my wife it’s time to watch this again.

 

There are some very good fictional steam period routes on TSC clearly very relatable to similar real routes.

If they are realistic and have a relatable story with them then I don't see why not. If they are clearly just fantasy then they would not be for me personally.

 

My personal idea for a fictional route is have something inspired from real but improve what in real life isn't perfect...
I'll explain: take for example a classic line with 2 track and some station, this line run always between tunnel and station out of them and have several speed limit change...
Well, I prefer reproduce it more out of the tunnel, maybe on the coast where it was located a lot of year ago when it was a single track, before the update, but always with the modern characteristics.

In this my first project, build just to know the UE better, as I said, I've reproducing a single track line from Italy to Germany and is totally fictional.... but this is my opinion on the fictional line..

 

I'd happily settle for a what if' styled routes too.
Running in the S&DJR in a 170 or one of the various closed Norfolk lines in a 156/153 would be a pretty good unique experience!

 

I recall "Seaview" on MSTS, with underground bases, island hopping bridges, dolphins leaping out of the water, bigfoot, and many other things to discover and enjoy. A fantasy route like that would be fun.

 

In my project, which should be a real replication, I have some places where I don't really know what do with it. I want to reproduce everything as it is in real life, but there are cases where reproducing the exact real location is either really boring, not exactly possible and/or I just want to create some nice little gimmick out of the few assets DTG provides to me (Revealing a secret: DTG is reusing assets a lot - was shocked first about this when I looked through the DLCs files - and you can be lucky for new each individiual one).

For example, the trashyard on the left and the freight terminal to the right. Both of these places do not exist like that in real life, yet this is my interpretation and I just let out my fun with it by creating the route.

Not quite sure whether something like this would make a route meant to be real half-fictional to be honest. Might be worth a different question, but maybe asking it here fits quite well. What would you say, is this already half-fictional? Would you ditch these places and change them to be exact replications? Does it make a difference when this will be released only as freeware product?

 

I think "what ifs" could be interesting. Those railways that fell through and never reached fruition, or only lasted a short time then went bankrupt so they never made it to historical events/modern times. There are a LOT of those out there (especially the lack of financing part) so they would be "real" in the sense that the places exist and there were plans drawn up for them. They would be "fictional" in that they weren't actually built. They wouldn't be built any different than the "abandoned" ones however, since much of those lines too are built over at this point.
Another type of "semi-fictional" would be the "can't license" or "wrong time period." The former I'd say would be a commuter service that actually exists on Oakville ("GO transit") with just a different logo for licensing issues. It DOES exist, and the trains are MOSTLY the same (MP-54 vs MP-36, or the wrong subtype of F40 engine...but 95% correct)
The other example would be that Class 66s still run on the Peak Forest route to the quarries that are still there. The line itself is 1958, but it's MOSTLY the same track (some changes of course in almost 70 years), so that could be argued is "real" and "accurate"... on everything but time period.
(Or going in reverse such as when we want to see older stock added to modern lines because they were replaced by the stuff on there.)

 

Make a ghost train railway, where the passengers are all zombies

 

Aren't the passengers in TSW already zombies?

 

I want Thomas the Train ...

 

If we just give it a moustache and call it "Tomas Mi Tren Amigo" will that avoid copyright lawsuits? =-)

 

Whilst I wouldn't want to see Thomas the Tank engine featured, the Island of Sodor was the subject of a detailed book by Rev Awdry which brought the places to life, almost like a tourist guide. As a subject of a fictional network of routes I think it would be very interesting. Sodor was supposed to be somewhere off the coast near Barrow if I recall so would have become part of the LMS if it had existed. Vicarstown on the eastern edge of the Island is based on the real life location of Vickerstown.

The book is long out of print and fetches large some of money whenever a copy comes up for sale.

 

Depends on the definition of 'fictional'.

In the literal sense, no, I have no interest what so ever in some imagery route. So, nope.

If we are talking about lines that have closed in the past, that don't exist now such as Peak Forest or Beeching Cut era route, then yeah, definitely, no issue with that. However DT seem to have thrown steam in the bin, which is disappointing as it puts any chance of those routes even existing to bed.

 

No, never.

 

I would stop playing TSW in an instant. No, please!

Even if done well (as happens in Train Simulator), driving on a fictional route doesn't satisfy me.

 

So surely you already stopped playing because of the runway elf route?

 

If I had bought it today I would have stopped. I didn't take it and I'm safe

Runway Elf and Training Center are not really routes.

 

Maybe we should consider calling them Training routes instead of Fictional routes to make them sound less offensive.

 

But this is a bit contradictory to what you say here

If it's optional for you to buy, you refrained to buy it before and you still keep playing TSW without it anyway.

The phrase "I would stop playing TSW in an instant" assumed to me that you meant you would refrain from playing Train Sim World just because of the existance of fictional or half-fictional third party routes.

The question is about all content being fictional or half-fictional. Imaginery routes like the Holiday Express but also routes that are fictional in the way that it moreover pretends to be a real route.

The training center also has a real life counterpart, the Wegberg-Wildenrath Testing Center, but the scenery however is different. It is indeed not a A to B route, but I guess due to my classification in the OP, you could see it as being a half-fictional route.

 

So if a new fictional route was released, which was an optional piece of DLC like all the other DLC, you would then stop playing TSW? Sounds like a massive over-reaction!

 

If DTG started producing almost exclusively (or mostly) fictional routes I would probably stop with TSW, in the sense that I would look for something else. I also consider the fact that it's not like all these routes will be released in 12 months (I prefer the European ones and they are the ones I would purchase the most). If half of them were fictional it would become a problem for me.

 

I think nobody ever even assumed DTG will stop producing irl routes. It's more about maybe once every 2-3 years. At most.

 

I always quite liked the model railway concept.
Model a station really well and open up every inch of running lines for scenario / timetabled running.
Then put a portal or fiddle yard at each end of the station and "voila" unlimited AI trainspotting possibilities.
(Ditto with a small or large industrial yard).

 

Yes model railways sound cool but I guess model railworks gameplay should let you be able to design the tracks

 

My post was to say that I am against the idea of fictional routes. Just as I am against multiplayer which for me would only bring new (many) bugs and a more arcade-oriented game, and various other proposals. That I'll stop playing was a way of saying, nothing more. I thought that there are already plenty of railway titles with fictional routes. And they don't attract me mainly for this reason.

 

Not sure why multiplayer would automatically be "arcadey." It just literally means sharing an experience with another person...who would arguably be another TSW player. How does that change anything else?

For the record, I have never been to 90% of the places we already have routes for. How would I even know if they are "accurate" or not? If someone says "Here's a route from Germany in 1955".... okay then I'll trust it's real. It plays the same to me either way as long as it "makes sense" and is fun.

I guess it all depends on what your PERSONAL limit for "imagination" is. Plenty of houses and buildings on routes now that aren't there or don't look like that.... I guess if they had a "Disney Princess Train Ride" then that could be pushing it, but there's always just the option to NOT buy it as there is for any other route we're not personally interested in.

I find German commuter routes boring as hell, but I don't threaten to quit the whole game because they exist, or because they keep being made. I just don't buy them.....

 

I fully agree. Some of the routes we have today look fictional to me. NY looks fictional to me although I have been assured by a few New Yorkers on the forum that it looks realistic.

 

Go and see the physics of Snow Runner in the two modes: Single and Multi. Extraordinary in the first case. A dud in the second. But Flight Simulator 2020 also fits. In multi it looks like a circus with 20 Boeings lined up (like an aerobatic team or group trip) and 200 at the airport, all on the runway together. I am against, in general, putting too many irons on the fire. The bugs in TSW have increased with the addition of each new feature. But it's like that in all games. But then what do you do with the multi in TSW? I saw some videos of SimRail, the one in the signal cabin received a train every half hour. I wouldn't do that job for money, would I start doing it for fun, even paying for it? Or do you take your best friend for a walk while you drive the train? Do you pay him to sit there next to you and do nothing? I am of the opinion that if you want to follow too many paths at the same time you will get a terrible result. The strong point of TSW (in my opinion) is the fidelity (compromises permitting) of the routes. I still remember New Rochelle-New York Penn, in 2017-2018 (I think). I watched the service from the last carriage (door at the end of the carriage), watching the railway pass behind me. There was a video on Youtube depicting the same route from the same location/perspective. I was amazed by the resemblance to the digital counterpart. It felt like I had been there before. This is TSW's greatest strength. But then why focus on his fictional one, after almost 8 years of activity? Saving time and money? In a few years will we also have fictional trains?

I like TSW because it makes me visit places I've never been and as mentioned, the real counterpart often resembles it in a surprising way (in every single km). What does a fictional route make me discover, TES IV: Oblivion with the railway?

 

However, what would you say once you find out that the real counterpart is or was not exactly in this way? Would you still say that fun is the more important and if it makes sense for you that unreal thing X is at real location Y, it doesn't matter?

There are two types of "fictional" routes. If you count what I meant with "half-fictional" even 3 types.

A. Complete imaginery ones. For example, Thomas the Tank: Island of Sodor, Harry Potter Hogwarts Express or any train ride through the galaxy.

B. A route which is not real (iow has no real counterpart), but however has non-imaginery characteristics of a real railway. For example a railway running through some mountains, fields, tunnel, between real life like cities.

This kind of route is meant to be like a real route, not like a train in space or something like that. The only difference is that this route does not exist in real life. However, this doesn't mean you couldn't have the same feeling and discover places and landmarks like with a route which has a real counterpart.

One should differ between them two, however and I guess this was my mistake I didn't distinguish them enough in the OP.

However there is also the thing what I called a "half-fictional" route C. which has a real life counterpart but because of any reason (licenses, limited time, other technical hurdles) the developer can't exactly replicate the route just like in real life.

The question is would it matter to you if a route has such a deviation from reality, even if the fictional substitution in it would make fun to play with?

 

I was disgusted by the videos I saw on Train Life. Where the cities are real but the route is fantasy, where in 20 minutes you connect 2 cities that in reality require hours of travel. And along the way you encounter imaginary curves and unicorns (nothing that can recall the real counterpart until you get a kilometer from the destination, where there is the station that is reproduced well.

I originally asked you the question. What would be the advantage of a route A or B or C? Aren't there enough titles with non-real routes already? Would TSW with fictional routes be more fun than the current TSW? (If so, why?) Aren't there enough DLCs on TSW (and let's also add TSC) to require a more frequent release of DLCs, is that why you want them fictional or maybe because if fictional (at least I hope so) they would cost less? I see it a bit like the story of accessible bathrooms on carriages... Do you want to simulate this too? Or do you need it for a video review to upload to Youtube?

If Train Life is halfway between A and B, TSW could also be placed in C. So you are already playing C. Where is the Taurus license? And some views and/or landmarks present in the real counterpart? I say Essen with only one large building but there are several missing. So TSW falls into C and D where D is reality.

 

For myself, I guess it depends on what you like. Railfans WOULD enjoy sitting at a station running signals or whatever... since many admit they just sit in Timetable mode and "watch trains"... so it's not "boring" for them. Different strokes for different folks. I don't care for commuter runs, but a LOT of people enjoy them even if I personally think they're boring. Doesn't mean I'd LOVE on them and say TSW is wasting their time with them. I don't personally say that TSW should be doing all freight routes because I want them.

What I'd do with freight runs is have the other person do what you do in real life.... help build consists, help with shunting, and "ground guide" so you don't have to cheat with the external cam, etc. You don't REALLY have an "external camera" button irl, you call the guy at the end of the train when backing up, etc. You do what you do in all other multiplayer games... share the experience.

People do that in games like Railroads Online. Not comparing the two games, just saying that multiplayer doesn't have to be this HUGE deal where it changes 100% of the game or is some bogeyman of "useless features."

It's a strawman argument to say that having a single "fictional/semi fictional" railway will then mean that ALL content will become that and it'll ruin the whole game. Not ALL content Canadian because we have 1 route there. I don't like the Austrian routes in general, but I don't say it ruins TSW because they are there.

It WOULD be enjoyable for me to see semi-historical routes as they would have looked if built, just like it's fun seeing the "era" routes like PFR and SOS, etc. Again, different things for different players. YOU play for reasons. I play for reasons. The neighbor plays for reasons. *shrugs*

If something isn't your cup of tea...don't buy it?
That's the beauty of the DLC concept.
It's ala carte.

 

Totally agree with you. In fact, that's what I've been saying since I've been here (I'm referring to the forum). Now explain to me why you quoted me by listing everything that I don't approve of but that you think I represent.

I just answered a poll saying (probably, without realizing it, in a colorful, exaggerated way) that I could stop playing TSW, translated (but I had already said this in a previous post) I'm not in favor of fictional routes, I don't like them. Suddenly I become the radical, the closed-minded one, now also a tyrant, because from what you write, my vote would decide the fate of the future of TSW: I said no, so all of you in favor will be deprived of what you appreciate. So? I said my piece, not yours. Period.

If you want to quadruple the bugs, also add the signal booth and multiplayer to a project born to be something else and already full of bugs. Tell me, are you still free to express your opinion or not? When in the previous generation of consoles I jokingly wrote that those who were oriented towards the Series S to play the next TSW should be banned from TSW, I was saying that the Series S would create problems for the entire next gen. Now, a couple of years later, go and see what is happening on TSW for Series X. Am I a clairvoyant? No, but I worked for decades as a computer programmer and I have learned something (not much to tell the truth). I am neither a nationalist, nor a patriot, nor a radical fundamentalist. But I know that if you add further features to a project that already has a considerable number of bugs (even stupid ones that are repeated with every new route that comes out) especially as relevant as multiplayer, you seriously risk burning the product. So for love (and hate) towards TSW I am not in favor of multiplayer on TSW. I hope I have been, if nothing else, exhaustive. I don't like fictional routes, on the other hand. I much prefer it with routes (hardware permitting, because you can't reproduce the entire skyline of a large city) that are as close to reality as possible.

 

Just want to bump me in here. It's absolutely okay to don't like fictional or any kind of non exactly real routes. To find out people's opinion on that topic was even the exact purpose of this poll. I don't force anyone to share the same opinion like me (which BTW I even didn't say yet I think).

But just as someone interested in route creation, I was interested to hear everyone's feedback on the topic.

I just asked back before, because I saw a kind of contradictual or not clear enough statement to interpret something like a "Yes" and "No" answer at the same time. So I just wanted the clarification.

Feel free to vote as you like. But keep remember that your feedback might be important for the one or other reading the thread, choosing your words precisely to not lead to confusions on the other end of the wire.

Have Fun and thank you for pariticipating in the poll.

 

It's not NY that's fictional. You're thinking of Australia. We all know that's too weird to exist ;-) j/k

 

I have no problem with fictional or half-fictional routes, especially if they are in support of the community. TSC had a few fictional/semi-fictional routes that were pretty interesting and enjoyable, and there were several such projects available at UKTS iirc for 'free'.

 

I mean fictional routes as free and payware are kinda a big thing in the German TSC Community and very popular there, even with some hardliners. Brennitzer Linienstern Bad Altburg, Nachteburg Rannstadt are fictional must haves for a German TSC collection, So why not, the old rule you dont have to buy it still applies....

 

Time is not optional though. If I'm working on route A (which is fictional) I'll take time away from route B which isn't fictional. After all, we're still talking about preferences and I'd prefer it to be as close as possible to the real counterpart.

Of course, if fictional (homemade) routes could be created through the editor and shared as freeware or with donations (but I don't know if it would be legal) then that would be fine. That way, it wouldn't take time away from the various software houses which are already few.

 

I miss a poll option.

I'd be interested for realistic route that never became reality, such as realistic route proposals, similar to the North Somerset Railway DLC for TSC, and I believe TSC's Corris Railway includes a section of a proposed extension as well.

I don't think I'd be up for something completely fantasy, but who knows I might be surprised what people come up with.

 

Interesting topic. I looked these two examples up and here is part of their description on their respective product pages on Steam.

TSC - North Somerset Railway:

"The stunning and picturesque landscapes of the Somerset hills come to life in this unique route for Train Simulator, representing the proposed reopened heritage line from Frome to Radstock.

A railway line in the North of Somerset is nothing new, with the Bristol and North Somerset Railway opening in 1873. This important line connected Bristol with Radstock, joining an existing branch from Frome to Radstock to serve collieries and the communities that brought workers to the coal industry.

However, since 1973 this part of Somerset has been without a rail line, until now - the North Somerset Railway's plan to reintroduce a heritage railway operation between Radstock and Frome will bring new access to an area of natural beauty and serve a growing housing population in the area.

The route for Train Simulator demonstrates what the new railway will look like, running from Frome, with important connections to the mainline, through Mells and Kilmersdon, to Radstock. The first phase of the line, from Mells Road to Mells, is planned to open in 2018, with the full line from Radstock to Frome scheduled for opening in 2025."


TSC - Corris Railway:

"With regular operations being steady for the past decade, the Corris Railway is looking to be extended beyond Maespoeth down towards Machynlleth. The first stage of this planned extension would end at Tan-y-Coed, which is about 2.5 miles from Corris Station. Preliminary work for this southerly extension began in 2015, however negotiations with the local authorities is essential. This is due to the potential line south of Maespoeth sitting immediately adjacent to the A487.

Whether the full extension of the Corris Railway will come to fruition or not, the fact that such a niche railway had the backing required to be preserved as it is today stands as an outstanding display of the passion behind UK’s once-lost railways. Thanks to Alan Meaden, we can enjoy the soul of the Corris Railway as it once was, despite history taking its toll on the stunning narrow gauge line; and thanks to Skyhook Games that experience will reach a different level as the uniquely historic Corris Railway is coming to Train Simulator.

The Corris Railway for Train Simulator features the modern-day preserved line from Corris to Maespoeth plus the proposed extension down to Tan-y-Coed."



Now comes the question, is a proposed or planned railway line or extension of it considered to be "fictional" or "half-fictional"?

I personally think that it shouldn't be considered as fictional, since the railway is at least partwise real/has a real counterpart or even is planned to become real. Only thing what prevents the complete railway or extension to it from becoming real is time or budget.

I think taking this as an option into the poll would be rather confusing (for example people got recently confused a lot by the topics to differentiate route mergers and modular routes and remasters and extensions) and the question and complete topic would become broader that I intended it to be. Yet kind of personally disagreeing that it should be classified as fictional or half-fictional.

A concern which I'm currently think about to include a poll option for is "Fictional life like routes yes, but no imaginery routes." to distinguish real life like routes from completely imaginery ones. However, this could also cause a lot of confusion to a lot of people, where to drag the line between. Yet the differenciation might being important to the poll results.

I'm kind of a dispute with myself at the moment, whether I should take it in or not.

 

While I can completely agree to the fact that if a third party does really intend to create a fictional route, it could steal some budget and time for the creation of real routes, the situation also could be a little different (which the question is also open for with regard to the topic of half-fictional routes).

Imagine if a creator already were in development of several routes, but by the time they find out that their capacities in regard to budget or deadlines are not sufficient enough to finish all projects of theirs, which by the begin of it were all intended to be real routes and do have a real counterpart.

Would you be okay with the decision if the developers goes ahead to cut things off at one project of less importance (evaluated by certain proven factors) and then release this with a variation to reality simply because its easier to finish and release the project with? Or would you say they rather either should wait until they have the time or budget for it (which could be years)? Would you even say that they shall completely eliminate the project in favor of the bigger ones?

 

Which answer do you want: A, B or C?

 

You can answer what you want.

 

Let them do what they want, our poll has zero impact on the strategies of software developers. If they realize that they don't have the funds to finish the semi-realistic route, they can always send an email to the developers of Train Life (or Trainz or someone else) and reach an agreement with them, changing the route to fictional or semi-fictional. I'm convinced that the selling price would remain unchanged.

 

What? What does Trainz or Train Life have to do with this? These are completely different games, running on different engines. I don't get you point.

 

I didn't suspect it, really

What if the developer who no longer has the funds to close the project and can't sell it to DTG takes his own life? Let's play the guessing game?

I would also include chaos theory in there. A chain reaction catastrophe if we don't let them sell the fictional route

 

Yes! Vote with your wallet! We want the Snowpiercer in the game

 

While the reaction and interactions happening in the Forum are perhaps mostly of no impact on future development, the Forum is open for everyone, not just players. Engaging and reading through the Forums could be a nice way to get a little bit more to know about the costumer's mindset and the possible reaction to some kind of content. It might has more influence on the future of some projects than you are aware of at the moment.

It might remain unchanged for the customer, but not so for the developer who need to cut half then. Something like a dev takeover wouldn't necessarily be a thing neither dev A. nor dev B. is really interested in.

The only plausible options would be to evaluate about investing more time and budget in the project, ditch it completely or sell it with a variation if otherwise it wouln't make sense/be in the state to be sold.

I think we might go a little beyond the spectrum of the question. I just wanted to know whether one would buy fictional routes. That's all.

 

I'll understand who don't want to pay for a fictional route but what if it's free?
Obviously the fictional route have to match the personal idea of a route that doesn't exist...
For example, I love the English route but I'd love the Munich station so, maybe, someone one day make the Munich station wit Ann England network and... That is it!
And if I don't want anything fictional, if this type of line is free, I'll have only to ignore it...

 

Yes, but how many times do we want to go beyond the spectrum of the question? Because I thought I had already answered your nocturnal lucubrations

But if I mess up my calculations, I make wrong predictions and I find myself in financial difficulty. Then the fictional or semi-fictional route developer gives me the DLC without making me pay or does he think about his business and leaves me to my problems?

In a fictional world he could even help me.

 

Providing it for free would of course be a good way for the consumer and to strengthen the relation between costumer and developer. But there are some circumstances which maybe prevent this to be happened. Consider that the time already spent on a project is worth something. And if you would cooperate with DTG and other distributors, there might not be a way for them to help you distributing if the product is provided for free.

Also consider that mods are only available for PC at the moment. And if someone would cooperate with DTG to get it on consoles, it's likely that the route simply couldn't be provided for free as it probably wouldn't be worth it for them.

Yes, exactly, but this also is valid for paid fictional routes. If you don't want something, you don't need to pay anything for it and just ignore the product (like it probably is the case for most costumers and real routes anyway).