PC Why Are The North American Tsw 4 Routes Being Neglected

It seems to me that the North American Routes in TSW 4 in particular are receiving little or no updates. The European routes, in particular the UK ones have been getting most; if not all of the updates while the North American ones get little or nothing.
I get that licencing could be a problem of why we're not getting many NA routes but still. Why aren't the receiving updates the same way the others get?

 

As I understand it, Metra have refused any sort of licence.

If you've spent any time at all reading the forums then NYC Subway has been discussed several times and Matt P. has stated the operator and parent company have point blank refused any access to the trains or system for research, especially the tunnel sections. So not going to happen.

DTG will not build routes unless they can get an official licence and at least some access for research.

 

None of the above.
I tend to avoid urban areas where possible irl and in game.
On the issue of "North American Routes" however, TSW has already worked with several companies in the past and could do more of those routes. (CSX, BNSF, Norfolk Southern)
San Bernadino is coming out soon-ish, so that's a new NA route.... and it's urban metro.
Is that something you'd be interested in?
What about AMTRAK layers on existing routes in the meantime? (I know ANT, CJP, PEN all have AMTRAK routes on them irl that could be layered in)

 

Because in reality, US content is 3rd on the ladder from DTG, its the farthest away country compared to their home in the UK and close by Germany. DTG also has easier access to those countries equipment for reference purposes, while the US has had very little support in terms of this (Which is only a handful, plus the cost and time of a research trip alone).

Hell, with more Austrian content on the way, the US may fall to 4th, with the only 3rd party on the horizon being the controversial High Iron Simulations, since Skyhook no longer works on their US content.

On a side note, the patches for US routes seems to have been delayed to the UK ones that released today.

 

The US has definitely slipped down the pecking order with DTG. There's really very little to look forward to. And I'll believe in those patches when I see them in black and white.

If you're a North American player, it's all very depressing.

 

The big summer release has historically come with a US route. I bet this summer will not be any different.

 

I wonder what the US route will be?

 

Right now the roadmap currently points to San Bernardino being the route, its in the 4-6 month range for May, so at earliest we could expect it in September, which is when TSW 4 (Last years summer release) was released.

 

I would concur. 80% certain San Bernardino being held back for the big summer/TSW5 release which means two Metrolink routes in a row as keynote US titles.

 

Thank you Matt for that honest and comprehensive reply. We are long-haul freight over here, and much less emphasis on commuter lines. A lot of it has to do with distances - but a turn around the Loop in Chicago on the Red line or Brown line would be amazing!

 

Perhaps DTG need to rethink their steam (traction) policy and start talking to US heritage railways or outfits like Durango to Silverton, see whether they will cooperate with getting their operations in the game. Or, as already suggested, use the existing equipment to recreate fallen flags or abandoned lines. The so called Milwaukee Road from Avery across to Drexel mentioned more than once. This would even be using the electric traction which we know DTG love with enough references from the Trainz and MSTS version to digitise the Little Joe sounds from the various electric sound sets already in game.

 

I mean, there was Kevin McGowan, who was working on a MILW route originally for TSC, with a Little Joe, who later ported that model to Unreal for potential use for TSW.


However, as discussed a long time before, that model isn't available to be used anymore due to a lot of reasons (McGowan no longer working at DTG followed up with his passing).

Still a shame that project never saw the light of day in either TSC or TSW.

 

But we've already been there with SD70ACe. That used a remix from C66, which albeit same engine family, sounds vastly different. ES44s from Cajon, on the other hand, sound fairly well and difference between C4 and AC version sound is minimal. And every single Class I has them. Why we ended up with only one fuctional (CJP) and one broken (HSC) version, I have no idea...

 

It would probably be one of the easier locos to source as it still exists and is operational in a museum.

 

But the museum has also been a part of the problem, as its been stated that Museum equipment cant be run at track speed, so they cant get full on correct recordings at max track speed, only whatever the museum allows.

 

Well that's about right for San Bernadino...

 

Appreciate your thoughtful response. The problem is we US players are completely in the dark. Maybe a little bit of information about this " exciting US content in the pipelines " would go a long way to easing our concerns about the future.

We understand and appreciate your logistical problems but surely there are plenty of US locos " in the can " to fashion more freight routes. What does HIS intend to use?

Granted, LIRR2 was a significant achievement. But it is in the end a commuter line, as is San Bernadino. US railroads are a vast freight network. Many of us are still playing Sand Patch and CRR, wondering if there'll ever be another major US freight route.

 

I mean, HIS did mention they have a route planned, but we don't know how many years down the line till that actual comes.

I'd still like to know what was planned for the 1 US loco that randomly vanished from the road map, what route would of it been for?

 

OK, but what loco(s), stock and route references do HIS intend to use that are apparently unavailable to DTG?

 

Most of their stock on TSC was reused or rehashed RSC/DTG stock, so I expect alot of models that already exist in TSW to be used. HIS's later offerings used models made by Cesar Pach (AKA DTM) who apparently will use things such as scale models for reference, though the models have alot of detail and scale issues.

Alternatively, if possible, I can also expect some models may be converted from TSC to TSW if the original 3d object still exists.

Same can probably be said about sounds too, same recordings used from TSC ported to TSW.

 

I'd still like to know what was planned for the 1 US loco that randomly vanished from the road map, what route would of it been for?[/QUOTE]

I think that US loco that vanished from the roadmap potentially was the LIRR DM30AC that many of us have been waiting for.

 

It wasn't, never planned to do it, nor will we likely get to it unfortunately.

Matt.[/QUOTE]

I wonder what it could have been? Hopefully one day, the LIRR diesels become a reality in TSW.

 

I think if third parties can keep coming to TSW that will lead to more quality US content in the long run. I am not in the TSC world but I know there is a lot of US content there which goes far beyond what is available in TSW and a big reason why is that there are more third party creators making it. With things like the editor push out I hope more third parties make the switch and some of that brings US content. Routes like Blackpool and Niddertalbahn show how the third parties can hit it out of the park, now we just need some US focused content like that.

 

Matt has said that they are working with a few US 3rd parties who will be coming online soon but don't expect to see something from them for a year if not longer

 

I hope someone can produce some great US (and hopefully Canadian) routes in the future.

 

First I think the whole US freight needs an overhaul - more liveries, substitution, random manifests, mixed locos, foreign power, etc. Maybe even a bit of randomized timetables. Without it, even good routes wear off really quickly.

 

Randomized timetables.... for freight that's a lot more important. Just times, or also locations?
I expect that'd be a pretty big lift to get into game so not expecting much on that. However, it would be a "nice" to have.
Most freight runs aren't scheduled, esp on smaller lines.

 

Actually they are. The Class 1 railroads do have freight train schedules. They may not be as rigid as passenger trains but their major customers rely on timely deliveries. And railroads deliver perishables in bulk using reefers. There are fast freights and freights that wait for cars but most operate on daily schedules. There's some that pass close to me that are generally predictable either every day or every other day.

US railroads do not generally make freight schedules available to the general public for security reasons.

 

So have the freight trains randomly go +-30 mins? That could mix up the runs a bit and cause some interesting situations... if the dispatcher can solve them (which I would bet on 'no')

 

I feel that it is meaningless if the mileage of North American freight routes does not exceed 100 miles. Personally, I hope that the next North American freight routes can break the mileage record!

 

The main issue is time and complexity. They don't have unlimited development time. 100 miles is really long. Autogen can only do so much before dtg have to go in and add everything else manually. Even driving 100 miles is really long. Some routes are also complex (lots of twists/turns, gradients, scenery, etc) which only lengthens development time. If it was just straight with zero scenery, then maybe it's possible

 

Depends on what that 100 miles consists of. It depends on the grade/speeds/etc. Cajon Pass for example is plenty long in time because it's under 25mph up the pass for 45 minutes to an hour. It's just as slow downhill because of overspeeding and curves, so it's very slow. The whole run can take 2-2.5 hours with a heavy load.
Sherman Hill seems short because it's pretty flat and fast by comparison.
It's not the length that I'd like to see, it's how much is actually ON the line to see and do.
CCB for example doesn't have any stops, branches, or much at all besides the loading point at the end.
The "western" routes are all very linear. The "eastern" ones (HSC, SPG, CRR) at least have some spurs and different industrial locations, even if going to 3 different coal mines isn't all that much variety.

 

Maybe that expectation needs to change. The motive power is somewhat similar system wide with almost all railroads. It would seem reasonable to reuse locos from a previous release(route) when making a new route within the same system. That's what an actual railroad does with their roster. Could you imagine the railroad changing the locos out with a "new loco" each time the train crosses into a different subdivision to please the railfans? LOL

 

Many times it has been mentioned they could do long flat freight routes in the middle of nowhere, but they're boring compared to those in hills. You know what? At this point let's try it. Give us some long flat route in Midwest and let's see. Add some branches and industries and I think it might be a solid competition for the hill lines.

 

Cajon Pass is 85 miles. That's pretty long.
ECM is 80.
Antelope is 76.
Sherman Hill is 76.
Yet shorter routes are often more interesting (to me) because they have more to do and less linearity.
Cajon Pass has basically a bunch of concrete(aggregate) plants....that's it for industry. Three of the same thing.
ECM... very little freight.
Antelope has basically ONE freight run (broken into two parts) and no industry developed.
Sherman Hill has maybe 3 industries...again no interaction and only slightly less linear.

There's content there they haven't used.
How about improving THOSE routes first, before making ANOTHER route that people will call "boring"?

I have a lot of hours on Cajon, but you can only run the same trip to the same cement mill so many times.
Why are none of the several industries on the Antelope line used? If it's not "accurate" then.... well it's not a great choice for a line.
Sherman Hill is probably the closest to what you're asking for...but again the selections are very limited.
ECM has lots of trackside stuff that's not used.

As I've said before, there's a LOT of potential lost on these maps by just not using the existing infrastructure and assets already there.
Even if you're just dropping off chemicals to the water filtration plant on Antelope, or fueling the power plant, or dropping off at one of the warehouses....

It's a waste to have all this designed into the game and then NOT use those assets. Do we really need another map that is even longer and still underutilized? They don't have to be LONG to be interesting. Oakville for example has a ton of industries in the same relatively small area. SPG and HSC have branches (though you can only move so much coal)

I guess you COULD make a very long map you just drive AMTRAK express or large intermodals back and forth from one end to the other, but I don't know if it would be "interesting." Now for pure scenic value something in the Canadian Rockies would be amazing, but spice it up with some branch line Northwest lumber industry and now you're talking!

I know steam stock isn't that popular right now (not getting into the "accuracy" debate) but what about something out of the box like a Western era US steam route? I've made a scenario with a Jubilee on Sherman Hill and it makes it kinda fun (at least in the parts without modern buildings.) I'd be fine with that too as something different. You'd be stopping in lots of small western towns with carriages and freight. Even if there aren't the mechanics for "filling" the train with coal/water, you could still go through the motions for points as directed.

I can't say I'd buy a route that was just one fast run from one end to the other in a straight line. Can already do that on CJP or SEHS or LGV. Just throw it in gear and don't stop.

 

Dtg also have to create new content to make money. That's just how it is. Only focusing on remastering content wouldn't bring them money.

Issue with steam is that the simulation isn't good. Even if there is more steam, players would be very unhappy with the simulation

 

Remasters would bring money if they were good enough. There's also people who don't yet own a route (for whatever reason) that may consider doing so if a remaster is on the table. And then there's new people coming to TSW.

Also, don't know about anyone else, but if DTG aren't willing to fix the steam simulation, they could at least continue developing steam. Maybe with more steam routes and more people using them, it would encourage DTG to relook at improving the simulation.

 

If DTG actually bothered to add any of those in. Both AVL and Cajon Pass have at least 1 line side industry that were never used in any way, shape or form.

 

A FEW players would be unhappy with the simulation... popularity of the Scotsman and remarks made already in threads show there'd be a market for "American Steam" even in the current semi-realistic state. Hell, I do it with the Jubilee now in my own scenarios but given an era route with some American LOOKING "steam" loco and some stock (lumber cars, coal, even existing British stock from the steam era like the 12 ton vans and caboose) would be fine for a large number of players.

I'm not saying remaster whole routes ala a TOD 4 or anything either. Just saying that when they DO build routes, they KEEP building in things that aren't then USED.... An existing siding that has no missions on it for example is just stupid. There are whole branches that exist and you can explore that either have no timetable/scenarios on them or some that you can't even go down, yet you can SEE they are fully populated.

I'm not against new western routes, but they have to have something ON them, and odds aren't good of that if they aren't even using the stuff they already PAID to develop and design. Antelope for example has several designed sidings for defense companies (Lockheed, etc) in Palmdale on the Antelope map. They're already in game, SOMEONE made them, and they'd make excellent freight destinations....but nothing. Sitting there made and unused. No content for them.

I don't understand why they'd pay to create content that's not used, and wouldn't take much TO use it. (I can make scenarios, so I know DTG could) Why are all the passenger stations modeled in Oakville but it's only freight that has any content for it? What's the point of detailing all of those stations?

Yes DTG needs to make money.... and releasing routes with more that people want ON them would enable them to sell more. The successful routes have both freight AND passenger on them for example for different kinds of players..not one OR the other. That eliminates half your fan base and potential customers either way.

 

The few people are the loudest and most active so dtg can't ignore them. Also you're fine with even less realism and more fictional content? Areas you can't access are modeled in because they are part of the immediate scenery. It would look extremely unrealistic and out of place and much more players would be unhappy. It's also easier to build certain industries in advance than add it later which is much harder

 

My main concern with NA content is the freight side .While DTG seems to be making strides with NA passenger content .with Lirr 2 and the next up San Bernadino coummuter route.. Hopefully after San Bernadino is relesed DTG should shift gears and hunker down and work on major revamps to NA freight content DLC paks and new freight routes and a remake or 2 of current freight routes hopefully the Clinchfield thats been talked about and Sand Patch or HSC could be livened up..

 

What is fictional about steam engines in the American West?
I didn't say the trains would be fictional...just that they wouldn't be expert level.
I guess SOME parts would be harder to create because of historical data, but there have to be some well documented routes from the 1800s that could be used. It would offer a lot different atmosphere and assets than the all-modern NA routes at present. The only one not in the last couple decades is CRR, which is 1970s. Nothing earlier than 50 years. Not even anything 1950s.
Not asking for anything fictional....

 

I’d like to see them do something similar

In truth TS has produced many much longer routes than TSW, routes that sometimes have to be broken down into 4 bite size chunks of 45 mins to an hour each. Building the railroad in TS is just as complex as in TSW. Besides it’s mostly 3rd parties that do it, the same that are coming to TSW. These TS routes are often far more complex than anything in this game, massive yards and sidings where ai trains are actually active, work areas where animated diggers and JCB’s are at work etc.
If it can be done successfully by DTG there why can’t they do it here?
These long freight routes sell very well with TS, Trainz and Run8, so why the heck can’t TSW try some? Just think of the American market alone that would buy into it. It’s a no brainer.
It’s almost like TSW are scared to come out of their comfort zone which is 40 or 50 miles, mostly with modern day emu’s.
Maybe if they’d built a route through the Canadian Rockies for example that actually reflected real mountain railroading over a meaningful distance between places of significance that actually meant something, then they would have sold really well, the N American market is huge.

 

It takes much longer to build in unreal and it's much more complicated. Dtg have explained that part already

 

I never said the trains would be fictional. I said not including scenery and track that is there by the trackside would make the route even less realistic

 

I know you like to defend them, but seriously?

TSW has been around for 7 years, by now they should be pushing the boundaries further.

 

I think one big reason why they aren't well popular is the execution, and lack of decent gameplay options for US freight in TSW. Especially when you look at the older older routes.

Sand Patch Grade: Short by current TSW standards, but its long dev time shows off how good of a route it is. Decent timetable, coal loading. Route looks really good and fleshed out (No dull spots, ugly buildings, POI's built). The default stock is nice and varied. (3 Locos with 2 paint schemes, proper for CSX back then) Plus 1 loco DLC (The C40-8W). It really only suffers from minor physics issues and old sounds. The SD40 is also a miss. We could of had a proper CSX Stealth loco but DTG when with some weird "fictional fantasy" thing and it was meh. Especially since you can see the blatant Copy and Paste from the CRR one (Same number series and number font)

Clinchfield Railroad: The only retro US route on TSW, route cutback in length from its TSC counterpart, but added in the branchlines it was missing. 2 locos, and interesting timetable. Route held back by nonfixed bugs (Like the lack of a Banking comm) some scenery issues, and lack of post release content, such as a GP7, SD45-2, or U36C (Not to mention no alt liveries for the CRR). The route also added in 5 new pieces of freight rolling stock in 1 release.

Sherman Hill: Route cut down to fit DTG's release schedule, added in longer trains, but at the cost with a different airbrake system. The quarry looked horrible, and not much to do outside of mainline runs. (I don't think I really hear anyone talk about the SD40-2 services for this route at all) The SD70ACe was also meh, DTG did fix the Side sill colors for modern UP, but forgot to make them a reflective stripe. Also the only post release DLC for the route was the UP Heritage Unit pack, which is still by far IMO the worst DLC DTG ever released for TSW.

Cajon Pass: The longest freight route to date, but it was marred with issues. The scenery was terrible, the sandy hills of the Pass looked like the Sahara desert than Southwest California. Lots of POI's missed. Incorrect number series on the SD40-2 for the time period represented. UP was only AI services on the Palmdale Cutoff, no playable services to/from the Cut Off to Barstow (As UP does in IRL) Instead with got some weird DLC with the ATSF F7 running with modern equipment alongside modern GEVO's. Will give credit as the ES44C4 is by far one of the best US locos in game (Along with those sweet MAXI IV's) but the route itself is a letdown. Not to mention the unused industries on the line (Such as the grain mill in San Bernardino). The SD70ACe was also a disaster. Used a variant that BNSF doesn't allow to lead on trains, plus the terrible execution of modern US TOFC. Not to mention the new rolling stock isn't used in timetable mode and the fact that (From what I read) the dynamic brakes on the SD70ACe don't work when being lead by the ES44C4.

Antelope Valley is a case where freight could of helped the route overall, but the ball was dropped HARD. While I understand trying to get services to the masses, using layers from Cajon was a mistake, and makes the consists look terrible (Especially when you try to run with UP stock) and the route should of came with freight stock by default. A yellow DTGX Maxi IV (To represent TTX) with either a revamped UP SD70ACe, or modifying the ES44C4 into a UP ES44AC. Not to mention all the siding that sit unused that can only be played around with in Free roam, plus the tracks to the Water treatment plant are inaccessible, DESPITE a SD40-2 and tanks cars spawning at it. Another miss was the lack of use for the cement/rock plant, while yes 1 I didn't know about the service till I looked it up (But that took only like 30-60 minutes of google) and UP hasn't run the train that served it in a few years. It would of added a decent run plus unload service thats been missing from freight routes.

Oakville we dont talk about, great on paper but thats it. The GP9RM though is nice. (Just wish DTG gave it livery editor support....)


Skyhooks routes aren't any better

Cane Creek has some graphical issues, it was an odd choice of route, the rolling stock was terrible and they should of put more work into it.

Horseshoe Curve is mostly fine, Skyhook at least can make manifests better than DTG. But Skyhooks GEVO's aren't as good as DTG's C4, which makes the route kind of meh to run. The gondola is a nice addition, but misses a few things. The 89ft flat car isn't even seen on the route much. At least Skyhook made a better Heritage Pack than DTG, though it still has a few bugs and such.


This makes me wonder when HIS gets to TSW, will we see the same effect as TSC? Where the player base was so starved of US freight content they are seen as saviors, despite some of their releases being mediocre at best?