Was going to post this in Off Topic but polls not allowed. Anyhow as a bit of harmless fun, thought we could have a "General Election" between the various DB BR 218's in different sims, see which one comes out on top...
Of course I've voted for the TSG version, although I am missing the hydrodynamic brake sounds. Zusi version is perfect for - Zusi. Of course the model isn't comparable as Zusi's focus is a completely different one from TSW. But it works just as good as the real one, and has "Füllstoss" simulation, which is missing in TSW as I see it (and is probably not relevant for the majority of players.)
How do you rate the VR 218 OldVern. (Or anyone else that has it)? As there is nothing else in the sale, that I want, my finger is hovering over the buy button. I’ve voted TSW, but watched a couple of videos of the VR TSC 218 and it also seems pretty good. I don’t like the DTG one, so I would like to swap it out in the scenarios I have.
I can quite literally only vote for the TSW variant as that's the only one I used in any sim lmao unless... I could pick "other" and say "the real one"
You can't get a better one for TSC. (And it has at least a "dummy" toggable night/day Ebula screen) And the horn is better in TSC.
In my honest opinion not as good as the TSG TSW one, but if that wasn't available this probably the best of the bunch. My main gripe was the sound, in that they seem to have gone down the AP road of more realistic in cab audio, i.e. rather muffled compared to outside. And it might have just been me or the route, but above a certain speed there was a rather odd track effect, sounds like jointed track but with fishplates at very short intervals. I guess you can always try it for up to two hours before deciding!
I voted for TSG version but I like Train Planet version too (and its still a demo) TSG version: higher quality sounds Train Planet version: functional IFD also, if I'm not mistaken, the one on train planet is a different variant of 218 compared to TSG's 218
That is actually a very good question… I am wondering why that is?! TSW is obviously capable of simulating this…
Can't speak for Maik, but I expect the reason is an economical one - do you implement a function that is probably not used by the large majority of TSW players and therefore make the product a little more expensive? Development takes time and time must be paid. And probably avoids Technical Reports due to overcharged brakes not releasing . I think it's a little too expert stuff for TSW.
The latter is the more probable But I would assume it has been modelled so many times, also by TSG, that it should be an „of the shelf“ solution to implement. The function has saved me at least once in TSW…
I might be misremembering, but I seem to recall that LFR’s 103 and 110 used to have it simulated before a subsequent patch either broke it or removed it. Based on that, I do get the feeling that it’s a conscious decision to leave it out.
Thanks for that info! I have not noticed… both are not used on freight (a least I am not), hence this function may not be so important. This is different with the 218, even though the consists may usually be not as long. But your observation makes sense. A shame, though.
Not sure, but i guess you guys mismatch some things (and it might even be wrong in ZUSI then .. ZUSI is not the godfather of all simulations, it can't even simulate the 218s transmission correctly IIRC ). The TSW 218 does have the "Füllstoß". But that is not the same as overcharge. Overcharge is not working yet, but implemented in SimuGraph (there was no time left to make it work properly and it would also need to do mesh changes for the "Angleicher" that needs animation). The "Füllstoß" only fills the HL faster until 5BAR and that works, but only really visible when in slow brake modes.
Disagree, I think you're wrong here. Even "Silberling", an ex-DB engineer, explains the Füllstoss in Zusi which models both Füllstoss and Angleicher very prototypical. Btw this channel is a precious resource for technical background.
Yeah, ok, you are right. But i will not implement that as most players have to much of trouble with it because most just put the lever to the end until the brakes might be released. Ends up in not working brakes for causal players.
Thanks for acknowledging, Maik. To return to the topic, your 218 made me fire up TSW again after having ditched it. Fabulous work. Cheers to Influenzo as well! Treat yourself a Berliner "White with Shot" Pete
The only thing that happens on old systems (like the 218) is that the FbV connects HL with the HBL, which has 10bar. Hence, the overcharge is a consequence of the Füllstoss. However, on digitally controlled FbV's it is handled differently and is usually restricted to 5bar. I found a discussion quite interesting which I had in regards to the Vectron, which actually limits the Füllstoss to 5bar, but only in Germany! All other countries still allow the Füllstoss to go higher (cant remember the exact value, but it was 5,x). This is actually simulated in TSW, once in Austria (The loco obviously needs to be set to Austrian mode) you can overcharge your brake, in Germany not. Another interesting video in this context from Der Silberling: Der Füllstoß. Anwendung und Hintergründe. (youtube.com)
Going to vote the TSW 218 whilst I do not own it as of yet, it’s the only one available on console so extra points
True. While Zusi is generally reliable, it does have some issues pertaining to rolling stock when you look closer. Quite a few re-used sound sets and I think the TSW’s 103 drivetrain is also more realistic. I think I read once that you’d usually be on tap 39 at 100km/h but Zusi is widely off-mark there, if I recall correctly. Be that as it may, this is not an attack on Zusi at all. I love it for what it is. Hear, hear. Probably one of the best channels I ever found.
Indeed. Make sure to watch the story of the mysteriously wrecked brakes that plagued the Dosto cab cars one time, and nobody found out until Silberling made a discovery, hunting down the issue to one small part of the direct brake assembly.
wow glad I noticed this after it has been "solved", otherwise it would make my brain go wild anyway, this Fullstoss and Angleichen, what exactly do they mean? Like, I know there is stuff like Brake overcharge, but no idea what is it used to so a brief explanation maybe? )
Pushing the driver’s brake valve past running to release (in older locos) connects the main reservoir to the brake pipe and theoretically allows 10bar in the pipe (in newer locos, it’s slightly different and you now longer get up to 10bar in the pipe). The point is to do this for a few seconds only to quickly fill the pipe back up when you had to brake hard or the pipe is empty even. The higher pressure equalises quickly along the (almost) empty pipe. You don’t actually charge the pipe to 10bar, you use the high pressure to speed up the process. Hence the name, Füll- (fill) -stoß (stroke or push) - you can quickly fill the pipe again. You only overcharge the pipe slightly (up to 5.5bar, I think) which releases stuck brakes and equalises the release pressure in the cars hence Angleichen (making something the same). Newer locos have a seperate button for this but older locos do this via the brake valve same as the Füllstoß, I think.
Also the older ones with D2/D5 have a dedicated "button" for it. It's this thing marked in the image:
Took the plunge the other day for the TSW TSG version. Had the DTG TSC version and the Zusi ones also and the TSW one wins hands down. Hopefully the 232 is just as good. Been under the weather last few days so haven't fired it up again yet but don't regret buying it.
I don't think there's a contest when it comes to the DTG TSC version... Also, I was under the impression that both the TSG 420 and 232 had been cancelled, but perhaps I wasn't remembering what was said about the 232 properly.
some ppl mentioned these things can be used in freight, IRL at least... in what way? how can you use this in coupling (someone mentioned sth like this)? and I believe Maik mentioned that it can get your brakes to get stuck, if simulated properly
They were never cancelled. Also remember that tsg is primarily 2nd party for dtg so those take priority first. For the 420, tsg can't release it on hma because it would just crash in its current state and dtg has no plans to completely rebuild it. That's back to the drawing board. 232 is later down the line. The original plan was 420, 218 and 232 i believe but that's since been changed because of reasons and dtg probably have more projects lined up for tsg to help out on
I thought the 232 was fairly well developed. It's the natural next diesel anyhow for DB routes unless we get a 245....
Well, freight is when the Füllstoß is especially useful due to the length of the brake pipe. When you have up to 500, 700, ... meters of pipe to fill, it's handy to have a way to speed up the process. That being said, you can use it with any train - just a quick tap to release will speed things up without overcharging the pipe if it was sufficiently empty. Coupling is when Angleichen is crucial. Normal tolerances for the pressure the driver's brake valve sets is 0.1 bar, so you can have anything between 4.9-5.1 bar at the loco. Let's say as an example, you have a car that was behind a loco with 5.1 bar. Now, you switch that car to the rear of another train. In this new train, the loco has a slightly worn driver's brake valve and only gives you 4.9 bar. Along the length of the train, these 4.9 bar taper off to 4.8 bar naturally. Our car with a release pressure of 5.1 bar will not release its brake with the 4.8 bar it gets. Therefore, we overcharge the brake pipe to e.g. 5.3 bar. This resets the release pressure of the brakes along the train (since 5.3 is enough to release the brakes of our 5.1 bar car) and as the overcharge slowly goes away, the pipe returns to 4.9 (4.8) bar given by the driver's brake valve. Our car is now compatible with this brake pipe pressure with a release pressure of 4.8 bar. An operational error can cause you to get your brakes stuck. If you apply the indirect brake while the pipe is overcharged to e.g. 5.3 bar, you set 5.3 bar as their release pressure. If you now release the brakes again (pressure will have tapered off more to somewhere between 5.0-5.3 bar), you don't reach the release pressure of the cars anymore and the brakes are stuck. Your only way out (without messing with the brake systems of each individual car by hand) is to overcharge the brake pipe to a higher level than when you set the brakes (so 5.4 or 5.5 in our example), which will release the brakes and reset the release pressure.
Good point Mike! There are people here on the forums that will check the internet over and over and search for things that are not 100% realistic according to the web but they forget completely that the way of playing this game/simulator also an low step needed for younger and new people in the train community! And after all will it bring more fun with an 100% realistic machine?! I think that 90% are get in trouble to use such locos!
a bit off topic, but I am seriously considering turning on German language for this game ... not yet gathered the courage to do so ... I would love and try my luck at OBB, but since it is Austrian railways, German is pretty much mandatory... which sucks cos I love German and Austrian locos / trains and their safety systems
I was hovering over the Virtual Railroads version with the soundmod but plumped for the TSG version purely because it sounds more realistic with the train heating off to my ears.
I noticed sth weird about the acceleration, but could be it was me being tired and my brain overreacting ... cos the loco was accelerating fairly quickly even on very low gear... but could be it was still revving from higher gears, I forgot ... will have to do more services today with an energy drink handy
Loksim was essentially the freeware rival to Zusi but certainly had much better graphics than (then) Zusi 2. The other programme which first introduced me to German train simming was the the original Rail Sim developed by a guy called Jens Schubert. Wonder where he is now?
anyway, noticed sth I dont understand on 218 - I understand the process of upping gears when speeding up... but I noticed sth when I had to slow down for upcoming red (some eventually changed but thats not the point), so I slowed down to like 20-25kmh, released the brakes, and put the loco to gear 2 just in case the red changes to yellow or even green... and the loco started accelerating at a pretty nice rate, at which point I had to either go down to gear 1 or 0 to avoid going over still active 500Hz supervision so I dont understand how come that on gear 2 I still did accelerate to almost 40 or even more if I kept it engaged? is it cos the engine, even at that low gear, still revs up nicely and accelerates? has it sth to do with hydraulics? somebody with more knowledge pls explain
ok, so I just tried some things and I think I now understand? tried Training Center with 218 spawned with 5 n-wagen with cab car, same as in many Hamburg Lubeck services... there the engine at the start was like 600 rpm... and then in regular service it was like 900 rpm... which is like almost as if it was on gear 6 or 7... so that I guess explains the acceleration on gear 2? in Training Center I then tried turning on the train heating, which sent the rpms from 600 to 900... so I guess with train heating the train is already kinda primed as if on gear 6 or 7?
Correct, when heating is on the engine runs at 950-1000 RPM. When you then fill the transmission it gives plenty of power into the gearbox. There is basically no control over the applied power below notch 7 what results in relatively high starting TE but falls down quite fast so you need to notch up further when you want to keep up to your schedule.
so I could theoretically also drive with heating off (I often drive timetable services in summer months, so it could make sense?), which would kiiind of give me more control around the take-off, since you start around 600 rpm that way? anyway, super-interesting quirk/feature of this loco
In theory, yes, but not if you’re driving prototypically. The coaches need electricity for all kinds of things (PIS, lights, AC, …). We have no coaches in-game that have other means of being powered than via the loco. Even the old n-Wagen we have are the more modern variant reliant on the loco. No, summer’s got nothing to do with it. ‘Heating’ is just a historical term for providing the coaches with electricity.
I have a distinct memory of departing Kempten for Ulm with a 218 pushing Silberlinge stock and steam heating being provided. Very atmospheric but uncomfortable on those old hard seats. Very busy train too at 0800 something in the morning. The UIC 232 etc. coaches were possibly dual heat though?
Gear is probably the "wrong"word, since with No.2 you fill the torque converter. From 3-15 the pneumatic valves control the "16 position mechanism", which speeds up the diesel engines N/1 over the injection system. The B was locked, originally designed as stage for "beschleunigung" for V locos with gas turbines. But they got removed very early again.
I believe so, yes. Back in the day, they would have had generators on the axles to generate electricity when steam heated.
