PC Why Are The North American Tsw 4 Routes Being Neglected

Blacknred nailed it with that summary. SPG, IMO, is still the best freight route made for the game. Now in hindsight it has some flaws that are connected to its old age (bad sounds, short trains) but overall the route itself, the scenery (I much prefer the east/forests to the west/deserts), and the variety of services. You get some pretty decent yard switching at Cumberland, lots of mainline up and down the grade, and the branches with coal loading. Really the gold standard for US freight IMO despite being long on the tooth.

Also the scenery is amazingly accurate, even minor details and points of interest are done well. See my old thread: Sand Patch Grade In Real Life | Dovetail Games Forums

 

Yes, very good analysis from Blacknred81. And you're both spot on with SPG still being the paradigm which DTG and partners have been unable to match in the last 7 years. It took a long time to build but that's OK if the end result is a quality route. But no developer is ever going to repeat that dev time.

 

Fair points, they could have been done a lot better. In TS you get a nice variety of freight runs, a few straightforward runs from A to B but often with warning signals to watch out for which keeps you on your toes, then routes where you have to assemble your freight before starting out - often from multiple sidings, then my favourites; the switching scenarios where you’re shunting stuff around a big yard to assemble a long freight train. That yard doesn’t just contain you for other ai engines are working too, so you don’t feel alone.
Sadly most freight work in TSW is just basic A to B runs and with greens all the way. Not very immersive.

 

Of course they have, they use every excuse in the book. Yet single enthusiasts are building much bigger routes on their own at home without assistance in their spare time.
Again they said they couldn’t add 700’s to BML because of “memory issues”, that excuse hasn’t stopped a modder adding a busy 700 timetable which has worked very well on pc’s. I’m sorry but I don’t believe any of their excuses anymore. It seems to me they just want to get maximum return for minimum effort.

 

Regarding the poll I couldn’t answer because I don’t particularly want any of them as they are all modern passenger routes and we have more than enough of those already. How about some retro routes for a change?
I’d like to see more freight with intelligent scenarios. Also vintage passenger trains sharing a freight line from the past, Just look at the TS catalogue, there are plenty of ideas there.

 

This summary is absolutely on point and if DTG wants to know what to improve, look no further. There's so much more to US freight if you do it properly.

 

DTG's current situation is to abandon US freight routes and develop US passenger routes. Although Matt explained that (US freight routes cannot get real sounds and visit live locomotives due to license reasons), I can understand that it is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain US Class I railway licenses. If this is the case, DTG can obtain US Class II and Class III railway licenses.

 

No.

 

That’s what they want you to think. 150 mile route in TS with multiple yards and branches versus the 13 mile Goblin line, go reason.
There’s not much difference honestly because the TS routes are so much more vast in scale and much more animated and alive with the ai. Ask Just Trains they will tell you the work that goes into TS routes.
It’s nice to see DTG starting to extend routes a bit now following pressure from players, you will benefit from that as well.

it’s a bit of a myth really, if TS routes were that easy to build then Workshop would be overfilled with them. It’s not, in fact more people are building routes at home in TSW. Don’t take as gospel what they say.

 

Blacknred,
Not sure I agree with your assessments.

Sand Patch is pretty decent, lacking just more variety. I really don’t care that much about the proper logos, colors, etc so besides the horns and bells sounding off compared to the real thing, I like it.

Horseshoe is pretty similar. Again, I think it’s fine except could use more variety.

Clinchfield just isn’t up to standards scenery-wise or with variety. Dark, low res coal runs with traction bug issues. Also no passengers at all, which they do have irl (come to think of it so do SPG and HSC, even if it’s just a daily AMTRAK)

Sherman Hill is bland but workable. It is what it is… wide open stretch of nothing on the plains.

Cane Creek some people love, I think it’s boring. It takes ¾ of the route just to see mountains then it’s around the bend and drop off. Nothing else to really do BUT stare at the mountains in the distance.

Oakville… hard disagree. That’s a FUN map. There’s variety, there’s branches, the rolling stock is good, it has a unique feature in refineries. The GP9 and GP 38 are the best in the game in my opinion for sounds/physics/accuracy. The scenery is well done.

Cajon Pass is what people keep asking for with US freight, so they got it. Now they don’t’ want it. I don’t live on the route, but I’ve been out that part of California a few times and minus more bushes up close to the tracks, it does seem to resemble pictures I’ve seen of the route. It IS a pretty barren desert. That’s the desert for ya…. I will admit the brakes on the SD2070 are wonky but that’s not the route’s problem per se.

Antelope is a missed opportunity as you said. It could be SO MUCH MORE but they never bothered with freight despite all the assets sitting right there.

The one thing they ALL are missing is more content on the routes… using all the sidings, more freight timetables/scenarios (including shunting/using industries that already exist, building consists)

I don’t know that we need LONGER routes for most players, although linking them would be fun. The problem is a lack of INTERACTION with the environment. Antelope has the sidings, but doesn’t use them. Cajon has that grainary they don’t use. Oakville has missing passenger service and nothing on the whole “Hamilton Loop” that in real life has industries on it (just like the port does), but is empty for some reason. Sherman Hill has another industry literally south of Cheyenne that you can’t go to but is busy irl. You can see it… can’t use it.

Horseshow has that steel factory at Johnstown that you can drive INTO a half mile but not load anything. All the buildings there, all the sidings…. Nothing built. (It even makes train cars I believe irl, or used to ironically enough, so you COULD go pick up new train cars there)

Sand Patch is pretty decent.

Then there’s the “commuter” routes which have freight irl. One scenario in Peninsula is lame. There’s a PORT there that hauls cargo.

Northeast Corridor has factories all up and down it you can (again) see but not use. It’s a well used CSX route, especially since it ends at a railyard for the Port of NY. Yet NO cargo at all?

It’s not a lack of North American routes…. It’s just a failure to take advantage of what we HAVE. It’s doing it half-assed and then not going back to improve it.

I agree with you 100% on the "neglected" part. They'd probably even sell better just by updating them with more content. Even more timetables and scenarios would be relatively simple to add tons of value.

 

I can't understand that too. Searchlight Simulations (a third party developer for TSC and SimRail) got completely access to CPKC SD70ACU, AC44 and SD40-2. A TV crew got completly access to CP trains including the Royal Canadian some years ago and made the wonderful Rocky Mountains Railroad TV series. I think DTG should make some more efforts for getting access to the american freight diesels, that we love so much.

 

I'm curious if you have the license for an American train/Railroad (Eg SD-40 2/Norfolk Southern) but no acces to it do you use the "operator manual" for better informations about the train ?

 

Cajon in TSW.

Cajon in TSC


Cajon IRL


The ground is so barren in the pass, and its sad that the TSC version (Which was originally made for Kuju's Rail Simulator in 2008 looks more accurate is a dissapointment.

Another place, the ground is a flat standard texture with random bushes laid everywhere.



And its not like DTG doesn't know what to do, as the route looks better between Barstow and Victorville, but the actual Pass itself looks like a rushed job to get the route into TSW3.

At least DTG somewhat made an effort to fix them in TSW4 with Antelope Valley, but the LA area suffered with terribly placed buildings.

 

You can literally buy service and operator manuals off of Ebay, they aren't restricted access or anything. (You just cant really find anything newer than the 90's)

 

People who constantly complain about the American routes being subpar seem to be forgetting that this is DTG we're talking about. Wildly varying quality for a premium price is their business model after all. I play mostly German/Austrian routes but I've recently branched out into US routes and I don't think they are that much worse than the German routes. There are fewer of them, true, and variety is lacking, but that is also true for the German/Austrian content (hello Dostos, Talents, BR185). No Superliners or other long-distance Amtrak trains, no Chargers or Venture cars and so on but Euro DTG has no Railjets or Nightjets or dining cars on the BR101 hauled IC trains (at least the Amtrak Metroliner consists have a cafe car included.) But afaik there are no absolutely unplayable lemons like the BR187 and BR204. The jointed track sounds are quite good and most of the US vehicles I've played are solid in terms of detail and physics, although not perfect of course.

So, imo, the US routes are about what you'd expect from the TSW franchise. Probably there are so few US routes because DTG doesn't think they will sell as well as the European content. But more routes doesn't necessarily mean better quality or variety. Personally, I'd rather DTG concentrated on quality rather than quantity across the board.

 

I recently had the opportunity to railfan at the Cajon Pass for a day and I can't play that route since in TSW. They've missed the mark extremely with that one, both scenery-wise and traffic-wise compared to what you'd see IRL.

 

Problem with Cajon, is that once you’ve been over it a few times in Run 8, TSW simply doesn’t measure up.

Note to DTG, if you do contemplate doing long haul US freight in future, choose a route that isn’t in the Run 8 collection!

 

You probably wouldn't see anyone in this thread minding some freight routes set in older periods. Days of Santa Fe, D&RGW, etc. with SD45s, D8s, Tunnel Motors and other cool machines. If it all is doomed because of CRR, that's a shame. The route probably attracted few people because of slow runs and missing shunting/loading, not because people were not interested in the era.

 

Post 9/11 overall security related to any infrastructure, transportation, public gathering areas, etc. is just much more difficult by design. On a personal level, as well as being an avid railfan, I'm also an avid nature photographer. Not too long after 9/11, I went to one of my usual favorite photography locations in a state park that the FEC railroad also passes through. My main activity that day was photographing birds and flowers along a trial, but I also briefly walked along the railroad right of way and took a few shots of the track. Within about fifteen minutes, I was being interrogated by a Martin County Sheriff deputy as to my purpose for photographing the tracks. Apparently a concerned citizen had called in my activity near the tracks after seeing me with a camera and very big telephoto lens. The deputy was very polite, but firm and very serious about gathering all of my identifying information including a request to view my photos on the camera. I was cooperative and polite as well and we had a great conversation about wildlife spots that were good for photography. His parting comment was a suggestion to avoid photographing anything that could be construed as "scouting" for sinister purposes. Just something that we must unfortunately deal with now.

 

Well, at least you are being honest, I was losing hope in anything American and getting irritated. One thing that really gets me, is Sand Patch, the best freight U.S. in the game got nerfed, with the SD40-2 appearing with BNSF orange livery in AI services. ?? Not right, and the GP-38 with only one skin in service mode, AI and player ? What's going on here? I'm a big fan of this route, but cannot play it much do to these weird anomalies. Matt, please fix and give SP grade some help!

 

I just realized California Dreamin' was on this poll. Looked it up and I think it's safe to say it's way too long. A small segment of the route is included with the Antelope, and a San Francisco route is already out, but not sure the area in between Santa Barbara and Gilroy will ever see the light of day.

I may suggest the trip idea to my mother, however. She's at that point in her life.

 

Agree%!!

 

I recently gotten into train sim classic started playing in mid june. I havent played TSW since im really enjoying the NA content in TSC it more fun stuff to do etc. Love the older stuff too has Alcos older GE and EMD s Steam electrics routes ..I got the Saluda grade Mountain sub ,Hanover sub NS Mon line Soldier summit Feather river , plan on more routes with the big steam sale on till july 11th

 

Oh, a San Bernardino route is confirmed now? I recall proposing that one back during TSC days.

Could probably dig it up if I felt like looking for it...

 

it has been confirmed since it was on the road map 5 months ago in Febuary

 

I haven't paid full attention to everything on every roadmap. Hence why I was surprised to see user creations in the editor on there in June.

 

Not like you to miss something

 

Really new to the game and this conversation, but I will say that if they gave us a Milwaukee Road add-on with the electrics or a North Shore Line retro pack, I'd buy them so fast I'd probably get a fraud warning from Paypal.

Retro San Francisco Key Line or modern day BART, too.

 

I haven't bought anything TSW for over a year... this would however be more than tempting

 

We've had 3 routes in California, with another almost ready to release. That's FOUR for just one state.
New York has 2.5
Pennsylvania has 1.5
Massachusetts has 1
Wyoming has 1
Utah has 1
Maryland has .5 (shared with PA)
Virginia has .5 (shared with Kentucky)
Kentucky has .5 (shared with Virginia)
New Jersey has .5 (shared with NY)


All of Canada has 1
None in Mexico

I get it that much of the MARKET is in the US, so Mexico and Canada are kinda screwed (also don't know what licensing is like in Mexico)
However, even if you take population into account.... there's no Texas routes and that's the 2nd most populous state.
There's nothing to the Southeast in Florida/Georgia/Carolina (HUGE train areas and very popular with TSC)
There's not any upper Midwest (Michigan, Illinois, big "Great Lakes" routes, and there's no Northwest hauling cargo from Washington ports into the Rockies. Most of these have lines with existing companies like UP, BNSF and CSX that DTG already has deals with.

If not there, why not Canada and the Rockies routes? Again, it's hugely popular in TSC and if licensing is an issue, the passenger routes are run by Amtrak which DTG already has a deal wtih.

Mexico would be neat, but I can see why they don't want to do the site recon down there.

Commuter routes are REALLY popular around Ontario and Quebec in Canada. Lots of variety and EMU/DMU/third rail and even cross-border trips. There's some nice scenic rails out to Newfoundland which are very similar to what you'd get on Fife or TVL.

My point being... do we NEED a 5th California route? A 4th commuter one no less? I've ridden the BART. It's... okay.... but VERY boring to ride, let alone drive. It's not quite as boring as the London Underground in that you ARE at least above ground, but they aren't really great scenery or a variety of track. Little grade, very linear, not a lot of landmarks.

Something different with some variety would be better.
Logging trains in the Northwest with port loading for example. Maybe a few years ago for variety. Combine the mainline with shunting operations from the forest to the main track and some shunting from the mainline to the ships for export would lend variety to a route.

Rockies trips would have both cargo and passenger routes (intercity, not commuter ones)

We haven't had any terrain like the swamps of Louisiana, Carolina or Georgia so that'd be new.

Honestly a Texas route would be a good chance to test that theory that people want longer, "easier" (to design) routes for high speed big cargo. LOTS of open, flat really easy to program terrain (VERY few assets to add compared to urban areas) so you could have very long, fast routes with about the same map size (computer storage size) Doing 200-250 miles of Texas flatland would be roughly similar to much less urban/hilly/forested terrain so you'd get a wide open map with lots of "fast/long" runs.

Since less dev hours means less cost, it'd be comparable to other maps in hard drive space and cost, so the "why can't maps be longer" thread people could have their route. It wouldn't be very INTERESTING (mostly tumbleweeds, dry riverbeds and the occasional ranch in the distance) but we'd get to see just how popular those are.

 

Is there anything unique or prevalent in an area that could justify creating there? Scenery yes, but I was thinking more like rolling stock or industries. Livestock cars for Texas, log cars for Washington, those cool auto coal loading tracks on the Great Lakes, some full semi trailers strapped down to the cars, as opposed to just the intermodal containers, metal coil cars like they have on the German maps, etc)

Some "freight packs" would be cool like the MML has too. For example, trains loaded with military equipment moving to Palmdale on the Antelope or Cajon Pass or Cheyenne Depot on the Sherman maps would spice things up and add a few more scenarios/new timetable)

(Yes I know a lot of modern logging companies use intermodal cars, but not ALL do and we could fudge or backdate it for general coolness. Another bunch of intermodals is kinda boring to look at)

 

Call me crazy, but I was thinking the UP/AMTRAK line from Texarkana, Texas to Little Rock, Arkansas might be a neat add-on.

 

Hmmmm. Never been to that specific area. What would recommend it as distinct or interesting?
What's the terrain like?
Any cool stops?
What kind of traffic?

 

Traffic won't exactly be Chicago, but Texarkana is down in pretty flat country, and you head northeast from there to cross the Red River. Terrain is low for a bit, but eventually you start moving through the Ouachita Mountains, which are gorgeous, and there's a lot of waterways in that part of Arkansas. Can't speak specifically for what industries there are along the way, but there's an interchange with the Kiamichi Railroad in Hope, Arkansas (moves mostly wood products, if memory serves) and multiple branch lines/interchanges with other short lines along the route.

According to the UP website:

That sounds like a pretty interesting destination.

AMTRAK runs the Texas Eagle back and forth along the route as well.

 

Hear, hear! I’m always happy to see support for the old Milwaukee electrics on here. That would be a real dream come true.

 

He who gives me an EF-1 will be responsible for a level of childlike glee that would have to be seen to be appreciated.

 

Oh, yes! I know the Little Joes get all the attention (and they are beautiful, don’t get me wrong) but it’s the box cabs that I’d love getting most.

 

Problem is that DTG is limited where they can make a route based on what they want and can do right now, or at least that's what we've been told AFAIK

-They will only make licensed routes, so if a commuter line says no, they are a no go.
-They aren't making dedicated freight routes right now (Which pretty much stops most of the US from having a route right now)
-They aren't making vintage routes due to research access.

This obviously limits where DTG can build a route.

DTG already has good relationships with Caltrain, Metrolink and Amtrak, those license alone cover a good portion of California's commuter network. (With state supported Amtrak California and Surfliner in the mix) ACE said they were interested in being in TSW. On top of having a license with the 2 Class 1 railroads in California (UP & BNSF). It pretty much covers most of the state where DTG can build a route, the only outlying area being San Diego since we don't know if NCDT will allow licensing of their 2 trains (Coaster & Sprinter)

 

DTG would put there like five locos and half the area would be inaccessible.

 

Accurate.
They'd build a whole yard and you couldn't get to it.

 

A lot of the difficulty is whether there is anything in particular that would be interesting, as well as whether they have any trains they can run on the route. For instance, they could build Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness but they can't get the stock to run on the line, so why bother making the line?

 

I like the US routes if I want to drive super loud boss trains as I call them Gets me away from the calm of British rail and German. Although I admit there is so much British and German rail, is Germany the only European country that has railways? I might have a bad memory but I'm sure I hopped on the railway in Italy when I visited, unless I was hallucinating. Train Sim World is a odd choice for a title when it barely covers other nations.

 

That's a common complaint and it's a valid criticism, but I think it has a lot to do with ease of development. They are based in the UK so it's a matter of a short trip out of the office to do research on UK, and Germany is a large, centralized operation in the largest country in Europe so they already have the contacts and it's a big market.
It's the low hanging fruit basically. They work with what they have easy at hand.
It would take more work to negotiate with Italian or Slovakian railways, the market is smaller, and it requires a lot more travel.

USA is also another very large railsim market. However, it's farther to go so....

I'm not sure that "railfanning" is a huge thing outside of those markets. Part of it is "if you build it they will come" so we HAVE those routes, so people from those countries are drawn to it. However, it's also part of the culture that Europe/North America has a lot of railfans.

As cool as it would be to have a line in Africa, South America or Asia.... that seems like it would be a third-party driven thing with teams in those areas familiar with the local routes/trains and willing to take the risk.

 

operator#7940 Makes sense the way you put it. I forgot a 3rd party is doing an Asian route for the 1st time ever which is very exciting.
So if a developer in Australia for example stepped up to do Australia Rail, then DTG would be good with it. As with any other countries such as Africa etc provided its 3rd party.