My Thoughts On Cts

About 20 to 40 active players worldwide.

ViewApp abandoned Munich and Vienna, where players asked for more. If they had done some market research they would have found adding more lines to said games would've been the way to go.

Instead they made a game that appeals to very few only due to a rather questionable concept.

A company must sell things that are demanded, and not hope for creating a demand. It takes a little more to create a second "Winsenburg"

I consider this game dead already, and the lack of discussions here are an indicator for that.

 

Assuming TramSim Vienna and Munich were built on the same engine, I think an easy win (should the numerous issues with CTS be fixed) would be to port the cities and trams into CTS to give it more of a purpose. I don't mind fictional routes in games and often like them, but a lot of people couldn't care less about them. The TramSim concept isn't a bad one, but was not executed with any long-term thinking into how it would work as a platform as the tram equivalent of TS and TSW.

There should have been one TramSim, with Munich and Vienna both being playable in the same game which would be updated over time. They could add the city from CTS if they really felt like it, but leaving each previous game as abandonware is just not acceptable. It's even worse than TSW, because the older versions of TSW still have a lot of playability (and routes!) and are in many ways interchangeable experiences.

 

Just waiting for the discount to £2.99 and I will grab it. And yes, agree with previous sentiments this should have been a unified product incorporating Munich and Vienna.

 

I’m not buying it on principle that I don’t consider they really finished Münich or Vienna. If they are already abandoned then it gives me no confidence that they’ll finish this one either.

To be honest fictional routes aren’t really my thing anyway, plus I think it’s far too expensive for early access.

If it ever comes to Game Pass I might try it, but I’m not willing to pay money for it.

 

I've had Munich and Vienna in my Steam wishlist for ages now, waiting for a review that says the early glitches are sorted.

I'd always be tempted if it's a tram route based in a city I've visited, but I've got no interest in fictional train or tram routes.

 

Well the only one I would really chance my money on would be something that recreated Blackpool in the early to mid 70's, when the Coronation cars were still in regular service, everything ran with trolley poles and the system was a far cry from the sanitised urban light railway it's now become.

 

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what this game is about.

 

Sadly, no.

 

Appreciate your input Jan. I have to say my main issue continues to be the price this has been pitched at for what seems to be very early access. Regardless of the circumstances it still rankles that the earlier games were abandoned and that does lead to a lack of faith. We also have DTG’s failure with their own attempt at early access, with Flight Sim World which many of us bought into but was pulled for reasons never made entirely clear, leaving a half finished product with no jetliners.

While it might not go down with those who chose to buy in straight away at full price, I do feel as publisher you should be talking with the developer about cutting the price significantly - even as low as £9.99 - to get interest in the product and community testing/feedback. I would certainly have a go for that price, but not £24.99!

 

I think it's just the beginning. Taking an almost Bus Sim 21-ish Next Stop approach to trams/ company operation. I strongly believe that this game has not failed; in fact, I see it as an opportunity for existing and new players to the transportation sim space. It adopts a similar approach with trams and has an easier acumen of company operation versus seen in Bus Sim 21 Next Stop. The price is a little bit much for EA but for an EA product, I feel there was enough content to launch the game. Definitely an improvement over the last Tram sim. I am curious to see how Tramau Expands and encourages the creation of new tram routes and of course, more tram rollingstock to grow your company. The bones are there, now its time for meat and gristle. lol

 

19 people currently in game, according to Steam DB.
At the same time 889 playing TSW (Steam only, add in consoles and Epic), 877 playing TSC. 284 playing SimRail.
There's actually more people playing the Steam edition of Trainz 22 (181).
Even ancient OMSI 2 currently has 895 in game.
Fair to say on those numbers, CTS is failing and failing miserably.

 

Currently the two TramSim games have a combined 28 players in-game. At this moment CTS is at 25. I do wonder that if the playerbase hadn't been split up by three individual releases the game might have had more success...

The input is appreciated, although doesn't really fix the issues we have with the game.

Some of the issues with the game can be excused as it is in early access, although I must admit there are other early access games which are a lot more compelling than CTS. But disregarding that, I assume that bugfixes will be arriving in the coming weeks and months (although I'm not too confident in long-term support considering the previous games). However, the major issues with the game can't be brushed under the carpet.

I like fictional cities and routes a lot, but I can't lie and say that most people like them. I don't get why people don't like them, but the truth is that the choice to go with a fictional city was the wrong one. There were two cities made for the previous games - if ViewApp were desperate to make Tramau, common sense suggests that they could port over the previous two cities into the new game to have something more compelling. It would not be an easy job, but it would be worth it.

With that, you'd have three routes. Two of them would be realistic cities, and the other would be a fictional one as a bonus. Good so far. The next step after that would be to make the game a platform, with more routes and trams added in future DLC. However, the City Transport Simulator name does raise some questions. I know you won't be able to tell us, but I do wonder if a bus, metro or even taxi game based on the same concept is in the works... If so, that has a lot of potential if it is not separated between different games. If there was one City Transport Simulator where you could drive a tram, a bus, etc, all in real-world cities, that would have enormous potential.

Returning from hypotheticaland, you state that no assets were ported from UE4 to 5. I'm not sure if you mean that literally, because if you do and nothing from the previous games was ported, I do wonder how much simpler development would have been. Obviously the scripting for the trams themselves wouldn't be easy to port, but the individual assets and the cities surely would have been much simpler? Of course it could turn out to be a lot more complicated than that but I'd be surprised.

 

It's an abuse of EarlyAccess imho, which is a good system for startups with actually good design ideas but no funds. In ViewApp's case, it's just "Pay us first and we might deliver what you expected, but please give us some money". Not a trustworthy company, having abandoned two previous games (that had demand for more content.) A quick way to grab cash, and using legal gray zones on what they actually have to deliver.

But then, no one forces you to support the development.

Bad or no market research in this case.

 

Does make me revisit what Jan said earlier about ViewApp changing publishers... Did they jump or were they pushed? Did the lack of any meaningful fixes or ongoing support for Vienna and Munich meant the original publisher terminated the contract in frustation? Not that we'll ever know but can only hope DTG 1. Haven't bought into a lemon here and 2. Can provide the necessary motiation to keep ViewApp focused on the product and not fire and forget (though given ongoing issues with TSW content, that does invoke a wry smile!).

 

Aerosoft publish any old tat, I don't think they would have terminated the contract.

DTG published the console version, although interestingly it seems to have been abandoned very quickly since the E1 tram was never ported to it. It's a pity, because it is to me the most interesting tram in the game, and the console version is otherwise the 'complete package' that I wanted out of TramSim.

 

Off-topic, but I recently downloaded this tram by "radiomaster" for TSC (freeware - but ProRange / AP quality!) If you download this, bookmark the video as a tutorial. This is an absolute gem! (Once I've figured out the meaning of all switches, I'll make a localised engine blueprint for MouseOvers.)

Russian language, but you get the picture. Complex cold start procedure.

 

Think I came across something similar in Trainz - KTL Trams I think they were. Impossible to drive though as all the instructions were in Cyrillic and the author unfortunately didn’t provide an English translation.

 

If I can drive that one, so can you.

 

Hi Spikee1975, do you perhaps have a direct link to this?

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PIVF1LY_DNQC6s5KNH5qu0z7An5n0slJ/view

I have discovered this by downloading a nice small tram route from rail-sim.de

https://rail-sim.de/forum/filebase/entry/7124-ländliche-strassenbahn/

 

Thanks Spikee

 

True enough. Just look at the assorted half finished messes TML Studios put out over the years.

 

I see the game has (temporarily) been reduced by £5 on Steam but IMHO still not enough discount to warrant a purchase in its current state and the lack of any completion assurance. Like I said, let’s talk when you decide to sell it for £10.

 

If you ask me the game should only cost £5, for something that is fictional rubbish of desperation hopes to make money. it's a joke! Talk about highway robbery.

Tram routes should be built in TSC/TSW anyhow and yet both is a much better game than this useless tram game that looks like a complete copy from TramSim. Dovetail Games developers really failed this game in a bad way

 

The developers of CTS were the ones who made TramSim.

You can make tram routes in TSC and TSW but it's quite a hacky way of doing it. A dedicated tram game is in theory the better solution.

 

Think the biggest problem facing tram routes, as I found when I did Blackpool in Railworks all those years ago, is no support for line of sight driving. The route has to be signalled either visible (unrealistic) or buried (but then the driver has no clue as to the aspect). Of course that might have been overcome since.

 

I'm not trying to ruin CTS! It's just that Dovetail Games could had done better, even though the game is in pretty much a beta. But Dovetail Games never released a beta version of Rail Simulator, Railworks or even TS20xx or Train Simulator Classic/ TSC 2024 these were completed games with real routes, this is why I'm saying the developers failed CTS and failed TSW without a proper route editor, but overall TSW isn't a failed game since it has real routes from day one

Dovetail Games could had done so much better

 

I think I misinterpreted your comment; when you said 'copy' I thought you meant that the developers has ripped off the work of others, but I don't think you meant that so I apologise.

I believe the use of early access was to gauge interest and get some early cashflow. Clearly that hasn't really worked. I do think that even in its pre-release days TSW was a more compelling product (when the game was only available as CSX Heavy Haul), and of course TS would have been quite compelling in its early days too. I'm sure (read: hope) in the next few months that DTG and ViewApp will improve the game, and it'll be interesting to see how or if they set the game apart from its current reputation as TramSim but without the bits we liked.

 

I generally enjoyed the two previous tram sims, they had a few issues, but generally I could play them and have fun.

I completely agree with the comments here about the fictional city deterring enjoyment. I have no interest in a fictional city, even if it has a back story etc. Honestly, and bluntly, I don’t care. I play sims to replicate something that is real. I’m also not interested in creating my own routes etc within a fictional city.

Hopefully at some point this can transform into the TSW of tram simulation, with different real city routes available as DLC etc.

 

I don't mind fictional cities but I know a lot of people don't like them. I don't understand why, but the facts don't lie. I know that building real cities is hard - Polyphony Digital, one of the most capable game developers out there, gave up on city courses years ago - but they should have known they'd get this response.

 

Well that was a waste of time. Don’t know why they abandoned the other Tram game they made with Munich and Vienna. That actually had a lot of potential to be a really amazing simulator had they added more Trams and Lines. Imagine if they had made Edinburgh Trams or Blackpool. They’d be drowning in money.

 

If they had done Blackpool, even modern day, my £30 would have been handed over without delay.

 

A heritage London tram route with an E1 would have been lovely. Old London is relatively well documented so I expect it wouldn't be the hardest thing to make. I loved the E1 tram in TS. A new model could look stunning.

 

I personally don't think this tells the whole story. The fact of that matter is, from the onset they had done the (very risky) promise of adding new lines for free. Something which they did for TramSim Vienna on one occasion, the half of the line 71. However that I think was their shot to the foot, because when working on a real-life map, a lot of work has to go into it, which in this case is a lot of work that went unpaid. Probably the only hope it had was that by adding more lines, more players would join in. Again, that is very risky considering that trams are a niche within a niche.
Eventually, it's pretty clear to me that the tram DLCs and attempting to attract more people did not work, and did not support the game's development at all. It's to wonder if making the new lines paid would have helped, but once again as they made the very firm and repeated promise of adding new lines for free, unfortunately that was not an option.

 

Are we certain that this game is a failure financially? We have to remember that this is a niche product in an extremely niche genre. I'm not super interested in this game because I'm not a fan of fictional transit routes, but if the price was low enough, I would certainly purchase it. A daily peak of 44 players (data from SteamDB) isn't necessarily a bad thing when compared to products like SubwaySim Hamburg which has a daily peak of 12. Not a 1 to 1 comparison, but a single standalone route in a similarly niche genre, it seems to be doing alright, considering TML is still focused on releasing further patches to SubwaySim.

 

Not TML, but ex-HR Innoways now Simuverse. TML focuses solely on bus sims.

 

Not really an equal comparison. The various Subway Sims are ancient by any standard, I believe Hamburg was the second one they did. In fact shows how insignificant CTS is when Hamburg is still getting that many players on a daily basis.

 

I bought both Vienna and Munich tram simulators, but rarely play them preferring to play TSW mostly. If City Transport Simulator was not a fictional route, l might have bought it at some point, but will wait until an extremely good sale before l dip my feet in the water! I don’t want another game full of bugs.

 

I was kinda hoping the new announcement on Dovetail Direct would have been "Tram Sim World", alas no.

 

It's a pity seeing them double down on the fictional city. I do like the fictional city from the images, but they need to read the room here.

That said, they are on their way to having all of the trams from the TramSim games playable in CTS, which is great for variety.

 

The consumer is not interested in what the developer and publisher's problems were, they only care about what they ended up paying for an abandoned product.
About CTS I can say a few words:

1. In my region (Russia) the price is acceptable, but there is a huge number of alternative games for the same price, or less, but with a superior in times the amount of content.
2. I don't care so much about a fictional city or not, but I would be more likely to buy a game containing an existing city. It's much more interesting to explore a ‘living’ city with its features and architecture.

I wasn't fan of TramSim, but looking back at the situation with TramSim the trust is already shattered. In the current situation I will definitely not buy CTS until I see progress in the development of the game. If the developers will regularly fill it with content for at least a year, then I can think about buying it. I would like to see real cities with real routes.
Honestly I don't understand why Dovetail didn't integrate CTS into TSW as an expansion content. If ViewApp want to see their game separately, okay, but earn their trust by giving people the promised content. And then, similar to TSW, release what we're asking for - cities, routes, trams, game editor, maybe add different eras.

Unfortunately, you're damn right...

Probably due to the change of publisher, this could cause licensing issues, so developers can't just "pull" content from older games and "shove" it into CTS. Also the engine has changed from UE4 to UE5, so this will require improvements. Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V will not work.

 

Grand total of 66 players in game at present, according to Steam DB. Compared to...
905 in TSW5
1033 in TSC.

Think it's fair the best thing DTG could do here is as previously suggested and adapt the TSW game engine to allow tram operations then produce and sell some real world routes such as Blackpool, San Francisco Muni etc. with the features such as all day timetable.

 

That is a good idea but it would be best for it to happen in a few years time, as if it was released too soon it would make CTS ViewApp's third abandonware game in a row.

 

inner city tram lines modeled after real, recognizable cities? imagine the licenses needed for every branded shop name/sign/colours/logo your tram rolls past by?
modern trams having rolling commercial displays inside, a good opportunity to earn some extra money by displaying 'real' advertisements

other than that, a tram has to nagivate through road traffic, pedestrians, cyclists, delivery vans, emergency response vehicles in order to make the run interesting and 'life-like'

then there is passengers, nice, not so nice, old, young, entering your tram ....

unless you want to run your tram through empty cities, deserted streets

 

The time will come when we do no even need hand-modelled cities or railways. Google has scanned the whole world, and a game dev will only need to create their player vehicles and gameplay paths (tram/rail network), while the 3D world gets streamed from Google servers.

 

i have thought about that, but GE's StreetView obfuscates/blanks out almost any recognizable sign in order to protect people's privacy and businesses' copyright and 3D resolution is not great.
many tram stops are recognized by the passengers as 'opposite MacD0nalds' or on the 'corner with the @pple store' etc
so unless the devs go for a complete fictitious city, modeling a convincing environment will be a challenge.

 

SCS seem to use a mix of real (presumably licensed) and fictional company names in their towns and cities, so a tram sim could follow a similar path.

 

Appreciate that Jan, but even putting the bravest of faces on it, those “in game” figures are pretty dire. Maybe a deep discount (as we have just seen with Dirt 2.0 and WRC 24) would bring in more players. I’d probably try it for £10 or less.