What are the alternatives? Simrail? With its one track? Whats the other one with poor physics and lots of paywalls? Or TSC. Other than that what else is there? Nothing. Edit: Trainz.
Run 8 Trainz Derail Valley Railroads Online Simrail I don't know that TSC is "better" than most of those in physics, and your odd use of "paywalls" seems more disparaging than accurate. You are 100% fine in having an opinion if you think TSC is better, but insisting there are NO OPTIONS is not a supportable statement. Not for PC players. However, since none of those are on console (and that's the majority of gamers today) then my original point remains. Console players have JUST TSW, so that's where the console market is for train sims. It's common sense companies would build for that market.
TSW only exists to bring a train sim to consoles so that a wider market, and thus more sales, could be reached.
...because they are made of plastic. It's the cheapest way for manufacturers and the material is easy to form. A metal cast would also be possible (like the famous Matchbox cars), but would also increase the weight. For the small scale, there are still a lot of details. As with a digital 3D model, you can't put a normal or bump map on top or create a realistic metallic paint reflection. But the printing, including small decals, is very good these days.
Oh, please. Do we really have to go down the path of excluding words that come across as being offensive to the hurty-feely brigade? There's enough of that going on the world already without the need for it to spill into an adult-minded forum that's discussing all things trains. Besides, if you take the time to read what the 'offending' poster was saying he was merely expressing a personal feeling ("feels like a con") about rebuying preexisting content. I mean, c'mon, how many times in your life have you said "what a con" when something feels a bit unfair? None?
It's not about if it's "offensive." It's about being the correct use of the word. Why would you assume it's about feelings? Is that your focus generally? On feelings?
Does seem people get a bit over sensitive. I would personally stop short of calling the new 101 a "con" but the pricing certainly raised my eyebrows followed by a shake of the head, for something that already exists in game albeit in a lesser form. Can wait for a sale, or by then maybe my attention will be focused on something newer.
I would say I have never used the word con when something feels unfair. Language is important. It is not about hurty words, I have a far thicker skin than you assume. The word con is oft used on here always in the wrong context. Con conveys a deliberate attempt to deceive. Which is quite a charge to make against any individual or an organisation.
Exactly. "Con" would mean they intended to trick you all along and deliver a terrible or no product. That's clearly not the case here. Just being "more expensive" is not a "con." I haven't seen any subterfuge or attempt to "trick." It's more expensive than some people want, but they've been very open about the product.
1) I have. (Although I personally wouldn't have chosen to use that term in this context here). 2) In your view. In my view it simply means it lacks value for money.(again not something I personally believe to be true about this product from what I've seen and heard thus far). Neither of us has a monopoly on the accurate use or sense of the term. From the dictionary- "to make someone believe something false, usually so that that person will give you their money or possessions:" Fertile grounds for a separate discussion about some orher corporate behaviours, much of which has already taken place elsewhere on this forum. No need to rehash it here. Not seeking to be personal, harsh or aggressive. Simply pushing back against the sense of outrage which while often expressed is seldom warranted. Faux outrage is far less effective than a rapier line of questioning, a willingness to explore the sustainability, falsity or merit of the term or position that caused the sense of offense, or undesired and compelling consequences.. Society will learn that eventually.. Shutting debate down defuses nothing, instead increasing the pressure for a later, more extreme release.
Piling on and nit-picking someone's use of a word while ignoring their entire argument is a signature move on here.
And elsewhere. It has not served the initiators interests well in many cases. One only has to look at recent newsworthy items of a societal nature to realise how neither side in a bipolar debate has had their cause advanced successfully, instead only leading to an entrenchment of views and an unwillingness to address root causes. Again a consequence that only over time will become apparent in further undesired and unplanned events stemming from the untreated origins. Anyway, I digress. Pricing? Looks fine to me, even as a cheapskate with moths setting up home in my wallet..
I tend to find that when someone accuses someone else of shutting someone's argument down, it is generally they who are trying to do so.
There's probably some truth to that. It requires thought, intelligence and resilience to deal with that effectively. None of which I possess btw. I tend towards stubborn, bloody minded directness.
Classic propaganda technique: Accuse the other person of doing what the accuser is in fact doing in order to divert attention. Unfortunately, it's effective because people allow it to work.
There is definitely a concern with value for money compared to equivalent DLC in other games. At pretty much any DLC price point in TSW, past and present, you can find a DLC for Train Simulator or another game that is a more compelling deal. While TSW content is theoretically harder to develop, from a user's standpoint I don't think that's relevant. If I farmed the ingredients for beans on toast from the source and produced it all by hand, at the end of the day it's still beans on toast. The BR101, perhaps the most controversial pricing of any DLC in TSW, is £30, but the value of it falls apart when compared to other DLC that cost the same or less money. Below is a brief summary of the BR101 and two TS DLCs. All three have great physics, but there's a lot more going on than just that. Expert BR101: Two liveries for the BR101 only Simple mode PZB functionality GSMR functionality Random faults £30 AP Class 142: 18 liveries 2 passenger view types, 8 moquettes 3 transmission types 2 door variants NRN functionality GSMR functionality Changeable bounciness Dynamic exhaust And, while not a feature, much better textures than the BR101! £30 Caledonia Works A4: 40 variants, covering the entire lives of the class with differences depending on the era including chimneys, whistles, speedometers, nameplates, etc. All nameplates for all locomotives 6 tenders Seven whistle types Custom auto-fireman Performance mode Little details like shaking dials and the water level changing based on the gradient. £23 The only saving grace for the BR101 is the utterly ridiculous pricing of the sub-par ATS 745, but that does not make the BR101 a bargain. I don't think the AP142 is worth as much as it is, but you're definitely getting more for your money than with the BR101. Even if the BR101's simulation was orders of magnitudes better than the other trains (which I struggle to believe it is), I don't think the rest of the pack doesn't have enough going on to really justify it when taking other DLC into account. The worst thing about the BR101 though is that if it was £20 I probably would have bought it on the spot.
TSW does seem to take more work (hours) to create compared to TSC content, and being the rarer platform is a "captive choice" for console players until any of the other games goes that route. Those drive up cost. As for the details of it, as I said I don't personally plan on getting it since it's not my thing, but it'll all depend on who is getting it and why. It's not just a couple scenarios, it's every mission you can run with "random faults" which is actually a pretty important addition for the simulation crowd. It is a step above the others from the "authentic simulation" aspect, so that's reasonable. The only issue I can see is the lack of more routes to use it on, but that's not new. That's common to most of TSW. The 218 had that issue, etc. It's not as flexible as the base 101, but it offers a much higher level experience for those that want it. I think it's a fair price as someone without any stake in the 101 either way.
Perhaps it's the case that someone who wants to deep dive into the functionality is more focused on that than the breadth of route choice, texture sets and other elements.. in which case the price point makes sense. If you look at some of the dlc combinations in TSC you need to buy in order to get something really tasty, it can get very expensive very fast. I think it's priced very competitively in that context.
If you think the expert 101 is expensive, why don’t you pick up the model hornby azuma at York railway museum for the bargain price of £502? featuring, no walk in cab, having to build it yourself, no gameplay or timetable services, or scenarios. And probably having to buy track for it. absolute bargain
Not really a fair comparison. For one you're getting a real model made from real plastics and metals, which you can experience via various senses, not a set of binary generated pixels on a 2D monitor. If kept in good condition, may well represent an investment and the secondhand or resale value might actually go up. That said, some years ago I determined model railways had priced themselves out of the market, so far as people on average incomes are concerned. And while the TSG 101 might represent the pinnacle of TSW development, the Marks and Spencer or Waitrose of the brand as it were, there are cheaper alternatives for those who still want to play the game. Whereas with model railways it's either just expensive or bloody expensive..!
You’re comparing apples and oranges here and that invalidates your argument. Imagine someone looking at that £502 Azuma model and saying “that’s expensive for what you actually get” and the person next to them says “oh be quiet, do you know how much an actual BR 193 Vectron costs?” That’s exactly what you’re doing.
Not really... both are just for a hobby setup. Neither gets you driving a real train. It's still up to the buyer whether that's a "good buy." There's a guy two towns over who literally took his military retirement and turned a warehouse into a train museum. No "real" trains, but TONS AND TONS of train dioramas and sets. Two floors of running train sets and untold amounts of trains he hasn't even taken out of the box yet. Easily hundreds of thousands of investment. To him, it's worth it. To me? Not so much. I'm 100% fine with a video game and no physical trains. Then again he's in his 70s and has never played a video game. My point though is that what one person considers a "good value" is intensely personal. The fact that companies release that specialized, expensive content proves that there's a market for it (as small yet lucrative as that market is) By the way, if anyone is up Upstate NY, I can give you contact info for the guy. He's retired so it's open by appointment but he very much does tours and runs it as a museum =-)
I’m sorry, but what’s the issue? I posted a model azuma, which has no scenarios, or service mode, and you have to build yourself, for £500. at the end of the day, they are both hobbies
You're missing the point. A virtual locomotive for train sim game and a physical model train are completely different product categories. TSW isn't a "hobby setup" it's a game. Think of it this way... a book of train photos and diagrams and TSW are both things a rail fan might enjoy but you wouldn't tell someone well if you think the book is too expensive you should see how much TSW4 costs. Two completely different products that serve different purposes and are priced completely differently.
Technically it has unlimited services and scenarios if I add it to my track. Or if I take it to my mates model RR again unlimited timetables and services. Thats how model railways work. As long as its the same gauge as the model.
It's £30. Comparisons are pointless for what is a subjective opinion and set of circumstances revolving around affordability. You either can, or you can't. Everything else is an opinion that doesn't really matter to anyone else, not because of indifference, but because of the myriad number of individual circumstances and perspectives.
You know what, I’m just not even going to respond to this thread anymore, since everything everyone says on the forums just turns into bickering, and besides, it’s pub quiz night. I’m going to my local pub. And I’m probably going to drink and forget this whole conversation began. see you all
Yeah, I would. If you're a railfan, you have certain things you are into and you weigh what they cost vs what you "get" out of it personally. I see people at trade shows buy books for $40-$50 on niche hobby interests. You're gonna what read it once...maybe twice? Yet they don't feel it's a waste. Yes they're different products, but (saying it again) it all comes down to what YOU personally get out of it. If you REALLY want that book... buy it. If you REALLY want the 101, get it. I'm not going to tell you it's not worth your money if it's YOUR money. I can't tell you what you'll enjoy since I'm not you.
You're making a category error. Driving a high-performance car and playing Gran Turismo are "both hobbies" but a custom built car with "no scenarios, or service mode" is gonna cost more than the car game. It's not rocket science my dude.
Especially if you'd bought it without Mrs Vern's permission I suspect OldVern would mysteriously become ExVern, in the fashion of a certain parrot
If an Expert Loco such as this would be made for Train Sim Classic, we may see a fairer comparison, but I don't fully disagree with comparing Dovetail Games to Hornby.
Hornby has been a joke in the model railway community for years. The prices they charge are pulled out of thin air, and at this point they're throwing anything at the wall to see if it sticks. I was at the WonderWorks yesterday (the visitor centre in Westwood they have that's pretty hopeless except for the Lotus Cortina and bike from No Time To Die that they have on display) and they had a bargain bin for the unsold steampunk range stuff. The wagons were each going for £5, which is a great price but because they ruined them with nonsensical detailing nobody bought them. The bargain bin was completely full, and hilariously the paints were twice the price of the wagons, presumably because they're twice as useful. They're a pathetic company that's on the brink of collapse - I am only aware of two UK model railway companies that are worse than them. The rest are universally superior.
I'd have to agree. It's as though Hornby has an identity crisis and doesn't really know what it's trying to be. They can produce some pretty good stuff, but it's isolated. They don't really have a clear delineation between train sets and model railways, and the brand for either market as a result is dragged down by the other. It's a lesson that is observable across industries, and one worth keeping in mind when formulating strategy. It's actually something that DTG manages quite well IMHO.
I agree with you but in a different way. I believe that the worse manufacturers actually help the good ones by setting them apart from the LOVE. Accurascale probably wouldn't exist if Hornby made consistently great models at fair prices, which is what Accurascale is doing and has been quite successful at. They came from nowhere, released some of the best OO gauge models I've ever seen and it's all the better for it. Similarly, AP wouldn't have released sound packs and later enhancement packs if DTG's trains in TS were fully featured with great sounds.
So? What's wrong with that. Yes I will never buy a PC and why should I buy one? It's just a train game why would I buy a PC for train game? Just accept that you live in a world where consumers can choose whatever they want to game it. TSW is not limited to consoles, just like it is not limited to PC. If PC's are so much better for train simulators than there will be tons of train simulators out there that are way better than TSW as those simulators are limited to PC. I only play console so I never heard of those titles but to my knowledge the best train simulator also runs on consoles.
I suppose the question becomes, how much better could it be.. I ask this hypothetically, clearly. It satisfies a market niche, but those who believe rightly or wrongly that the technical implementation is held back because of hardware constraints, they will continue to voice that point of view. Additionally, I dont agree with the implication that hardware capability necessarily leads to software availability. Just because PCs are 'better' for train simulators, it doesnt necessarily follow that there will be train simulators that are designed to run only on PCs. Multi-platform is a design choice driven by sales, not engineering. Personally, I doubt DTGs ability to design a solid PC only simulation that could take advantage of the engineering, so Im actually OK with where it sits. Its pulling in the bucks and providing longevity to the brand. I think it was Doomatron who made a good point about third party devs filling in the niche for platform specific demand and quality increases (not quite in this context but close enough from how I read it).
How much better would it be if it was a console exclusive is also an hypothetical. It would be way much better on consoles than it is today on PC. And if we are talking hardware constraints I started to notice something since the PC topics and console topics became merged. The PC enthousiasts are not the sorts I meet in other communities. These are not the gamers in RGB lit rooms with the fastest high end PC's. In fact you might say that a large portion of the PC player base is holding the game back with their low spec PC's (why isn't there a devil emoji when you need it?)
PC's suffered and to some extent still do from the price gouging and short supply that accompanied the crypto farming fad a few years back. Also affected by COVID which suppressed parts production. I do have a plan to upgrade my PC, the bottleneck now being agreeing the investment with the wife. But yes my PC is most definitely an old potato these days.
I think you missed my point, so regard this as just checking rather than a rebuttal. I wasnt comparing the average pc from 5 years ago to todays console. All things being equal, a new gaming PC is capable of better performance than a new console. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise and expect to be taken seriously without losing credibility. Ray Tracing, FPS, physics processing and general visual quality are criteria that immediately spring to mind as just a few minutes of research will verify. Where consoles win is cost and convenience, both hugely significant when it comes to reach. Lets not let this deteriorate into yet another pointless argument about which is 'better'. The point I was making is that DTG have positioned themselves to take advantage of an economical advantage point, not an engineering one. I think thats a good thing as it keeps the model accessible to more users, including casual ones, which in turn increases brand value and brand longevity, which is a win for us enthusiasts.. and in that context I agree with you. There may be a window for PC only DLC from niche enthusiast 3rd party developers, but we have yet to see that (largely because of the final sentence in this paragraph imho). There may be another title come along at some point limited to specific hardware which deals in rail simulation but we have yet to see that too. Elsewhere in the industry we do see titles released on specific platforms designed to maximise software potential based on hardware potential, but these are also becoming less common. Nevertheless, that niche does exist for some subjects, especially those that dive deep into simulation with heavy physics or graphical loads. TSW doesnt fit either of those atm so I wouldnt lose any sleep over it. I likewise wouldnt expect any change to the hardware parameters anytime soon given DTGs glacial pace at upgrading or changing core elements, so again I'd take a fairly relaxed posture on the whole subject.
I'm missing the point? Someone claims TSW is limited to consoles. I explain that TSW is not limited to any platform (besides Switch). You argue that PC exclusive would warrant a better gaming experience. The same goes for console exclusives as I explained. Nobody is doubting that a modern spec PC will give better results than consoles but I'm arguing that the player base of TSW is not running this game on new PC's. Don't tell me that I want to turn this into a who is better discussion. What is best for the game is the discussion and PC exclusive is not the correct answer.
If I'm not mistaken I'm reading a strong emotional response in your reply. If you reread my post, you'll see I said I agree with you within the context of that outlined by yourself in the above reply to mine. I mentioned not turning this into a which is better discussion, the point of which seems to have been siezed upon and amplified in an unwarranted manner. As I said, I agree with you. Hopefully you feel a bit better now
