Chris Trains posted a comment on his Facebook page regarding SBB Licensing "As the Stadler GTW mid-life update is now very close to release, I have to pass on some sad news. You may have read about this elsewhere in the TSC community, but recently SBB modified all the license agreements with developers of models for all train simulator games. I don’t know if anyone really knows what happened to cause them to do this, but the short version is this: for me to remain legal with my SBB license, I am now forbidden from including anything other than than the most basic driving functions, in and model that has anything to do with Swiss rail operators. This means no SIFA and no PZB, among other things. This does not just affect me. It has already affected Paul Mersel's TrainWorx, and is also going to affect all Swiss game content from other developers (for example Rivet Games) if it hasn't already. What this means for the GTW update is that the Thurbo GTW will have SIFA and PZB disabled in this release, and all future releases, until SBB reconsiders their position. This isn't anything to do with the use of the SBB brand, and SBB haven't made any public statement as to why they have made this decision. But the wording of the new license agreement has less to do with specific systems in the train, and more to do with a general requirement that someone cannot learn how to fully start and operate any train on the Swiss network, simply from a simulation game. Specifically they require that no information screens are accurate or functional (in terms of menus, buttons etc), and that only accelerating and braking be allowed by the players. Further than that, I'm not going to speculate the reasons why they have made these decisions. Realistically I only had two options. I could either comply with the updated SBB requirements, or I could remove the Thurbo GTW from the pack completely. While I understand this is disappointing to Swiss rail enthusiasts, there is nothing I can do about this, and no amount of comments, emails or support tickets will result in me re-activating these functions in the model. I have to comply with the terms of my SBB licensing agreement, or I could face legal action. All other versions of the GTW in the pack remain unaffected." Peter
The crazy thing is that there is so much more to driving a train than ZUB. I also find hard to believe that anyone has ever stolen a train and managed to drive it with the knowledge derived from a simulation.
Furthermore, in a time where train drivers are almost desperately needed in many countries, this move seems very counterproductive. Quite a few train simmers end up becoming real train drivers.
This licensing thing will become more and more ridiculous, and we can be glad so much has already been done for TS. TSW will never see this variety.
Thing is; let’s hope DB and ÖBB doesn’t see the need for this. That really would kill european train simming.
"Hope" wouldn't change it. It's not a state of mind I would advise. What was the deal with the ÖBB 4748 withdrawal from Steam in Jamie's latest announcement?
This GTW thing is a train that did not have any SBB brandings right, The SBB has no GTW in service so far i know? So if its the case i did not get the story there...... And also that PZB and SIFA is also a big question mark here..... Edit i mean Diesel GTW trains
Well since i don’t have any influence over DB and ÖBB, all i can do is hope. Because driving trains without sequrity systems would be the death of TSC for me. And while the SBB stuff available on steam had abysimal zub, other developers had better implementations. And they too are forced to withdraw anything that resembles SBB trains. Alteady now the TSW Luzern rolling stock is being downgraded to simple controls.
I guess they have a new manager they have no clue about pc games and he is spreading his anti behaviour. This always a time from on and off so thats the world of a licence.
According to Wikipedia SBB has had the same CEO since 2020, so I don't know where this talk of "a new manager" comes from?
Who says it's the CEO making this particular decision? It could be a new corporate image manager or a HR manager or a publicity manager, it could be any number of job titles in fact, we just don't know we don't work within the company to know exactly where this has come from but I sincerely doubt it'd be the CEO.
The alternative is to remove branding and have full loco functionality, then you wouldn't need a license.
As I commented in the TSW section, do SBB also plan to try and extend this to MSTS or Trainz content that is already out there and for which no mechanism exists to patch out fully functional versions with their cut down requirements? I mean, ultimately so long as they don’t insist the movement physics are also nerfed to simple DCC style acceleration and braking curves, we can still drive the trains realistically enough so far as managing gradients and speed limits are concerned. But yes it does remove an immersive part of the experience nonetheless. Also can this legally be retrospectively applied to content already purchased, e.g. the Gotthard line by forcing an update through Steam? That could constitute grounds for a refund claim outside the usual Steam conditions. It does seem odd that over in TSW we have just had the expert DB101 released, with the approval of DB as some of their drivers were closely involved. Yet we have SBB wanting to reduce the experience of running their trains to the level of those crappy cloned Indian and Chinese train games you find on the iPad.
I did. He's wants to keep an SBB license. My solution is to do what's necessary to make a license unnecessary. Drop the branding, then you can do whatever you want with the models.
only if the SBB allows you access to their driver's cabins. I doubt they will allow illegal access by a friendly driver, who can face legal repercussions for breaking company rules. Also cab ride videos with more than the forwards view through the windscreen could be in jeopardy. I doubt a driver is officially allowed to stick a GoPro to the windscreen, let alone record the controls etc with him/her in the picture.
Another option to do a Swiss route is to model the geography but switch location to another country. That's what RSC did all those years ago with Seebergbagn. Presented as a German route but actually based on the BLS around Spiez.
So no more 'ultimate in realism' then? Didn't DTG's infallible market research indicate the prospective player doesn't buy into fake or freelance trains and routes?
I do remember reading something to that effect. Mind so far as TSC is concerned I do believe DTG have laid aside in house route production in favour of TSW, so kind of rests in the third party purview now.
While the SBB licensing restrictions are a cross platform problem, I'm surprised that Chris Trains isn't making a move to TSW. I would have thought that TSC's days as an actively developed platform must be coming to an end. The amount of activity on this board seems to have declined noticeably in the last 12 months, and many familiar posters have switched partially or totally to the TSW one, which suggests where interest and numbers are going.
I suspect that the licence covers more than the appearance of the railway operator's initials being painted on the side of the train, and includes such things as the actual likeness, cab setup and more.
It may be that they have had some moron illegally enter a cab and try to start/move a train resulting in damage to the computer, controls or control system. Damage to the body of an actual train, if moved, I should think would have been reported.
Or an SBB employee or subcontractor who was drunk, aggrieved or showing off. That's usually how these things happen and there must be all sorts of people at a depot, apart from drivers, who have access to units either legitimately or not.
Christrains can NOT just remove the livery. SBB has made it clear to him that even without the livery SBB trains are clearly recognisable because…..wait for it…..the end user knows what train it is supposed to represent. Which means that anyone making a train that we can reskin to make SBB, is breaking the license if implementing ZUB and SIFA.
And do you really think RhB's management is completely isolated from SBB's decision making as to operational security? Since RhB's depots and stations are often on public streets, easily accessible for man, woman, child, dog, cat ot mouse? There are No Trespassing signs at every platform end, signs at grade crossing, there are fences, but DTG still rewards a player by 'collecting' silly objects off the right of way. A player even commented the 'driver' is allowed/ entitled to these 'collectibles'? This to me is setting a bad example, just look at random social media with people, often children, posing between shiny rail heads because it looks so good being framed in a photo...
Or some kid derailing a train and posting it on youtube with the operator's logo clearly visible and adolescent laughing in the background. AFAIK that's why flight simulators more the less stopped using real airlines' logos/liveries....
I saw a story a few weeks ago that someone had tried to do just that at, I think, Preston. Personally, I wouldn't have the first clue where to start looking for the W, A, S, D and Q buttons in the cab of a real train
I mean I wouldn't be surprised if a train somewhere had a keyboard :P (of course not that it would work like that )
Apparently ETS2 devs are in hot water too, people as young as 7 or 8 have discovered that irl trucks have a steering wheel. Oh the horror. This is really all rather silly (returning to topic), hopefully whoever has so little going on in their job life that they felt this was the way to justify their position and salary is soon encouraged to find different employment and sanity will once again prevail. This could set a worrying precedent if not.
People keep talking about a License but that is nothing to do with the problem. SBB will only allow a licence if the train is "dumbed down" without the extra features And people think driving a train in Train Simulator is - get in cab, set to forward, release brakes and go. Have a look at the Sim Express locos and the procedure required to start a CC6500
https://www.google.com/search?q=youtube+train+running+over+people finds you lots of clips, made in TSW amongst others. Peds don't get torn to shreds yet, but that's only s matter of time ...
snapixlp#7970 no, the whole TSC community will never switch over to TSW. I´ve spent thousands of euros on TSC content and built several routes in the game. I´m not going anywhere and spending more money, if I have everything in TSC I need. And yes, I own all TSW games up until 4, but I won´t be buying TSW 5 and redownloading. I have about 16 hours in TSW 4. I just bores me out after a couple minutes. TSW will never in a million years reach the amount of routes and rolling stock we have in TSC. Yes, the community has become smaller over the years, but the remaning players are very invested and passionate about the game... and there is still enough freeware and third party (Christrains, Railtraction, RSSLO, ATS, Bahnjahn, virtual railroads etc.) doing content. To be honest, I don´t care if at some point in 20 years I´m the last player on Steam blasting the BR 218 Expert Line over my self built route, that will never come to TSW.
And DTG also continue to decorate routes, particularly in TSW, with grafitti in locations that could only have been accessed IRL by trespassing and putting the tagger in a position of danger. In fact taggers have been killed doing just that. Yet every time I've brought this up in the TSW forum at least, been shouted down by the "It's urban art" point of view and silence from DTG on the matter. Not sure what my particular point is here, but think it's probably why are the licensors and train/infrastructure operators getting funny about too much realism in the cab, but don't point a cease and desist at DTG for having grafitti scrawled lineside everywhere?!
I guess it's similar to virtually any American railroad, odd examples aside there are no cab rides. And those, who cares about operation, you put a cam on the nose and we can enjoy the ASMR nature video. But no, it's big, industrial and military secrets, what have you. Granted, America is a lonesome place and everyone fears the Midnight Magnet. Maybe it's true, cab rides are super dangerous. Like 9/11 only happened because it was proudly presented in movies. Nothing about tourism and intelligence. About a year ago Rotausleuchtung (Youtube author) started to share some additional details on how to drive, as well as vlogging the daily life of a train driver, in order to advertise it and motivate people to sign up to do it. First things first, with DB's approval / support, he said. We as humankind can't even agree on whether women are cattle or equal or superior, and that is simple enough human values. Some train drivers and instructors regularly come up with words that sound like they are a cult and only the initiated shall even know. So it can be anything from stupidity to fear of superiority complex or anything.
Gary Padley Why is he forbidden? Because he's controlled by the license agreement he has SBB. The solution to that restriction is to surrender the license. That will mean he can't then use their IP, but that will limited to their branding only. Everything else will not be SBB's to control. They won't have control over the representation of the functionality of SIFA or PZB, and they won't have control over representation of the shape of the rail vehicles. That IP either belongs to others or doesn't exist. My advice to him is to cancel his license with SBB, tell them to 'do one', and then make an unbranded Stadler GTWs with working SIFA and PZB. The community will do the rest.
He can’t. Because, even unbranded, users will know what train it represents. This is a detail Christrains wrote on Rail-Sim.de
So what if users know what train it is? There would be nothing SBB can do about it. I'd be surprised if there is a law in Switzerland that prohibits accurate representation of the functionality of Swiss rolling stock in computer games.
''But the wording of the new license agreement has less to do with specific systems in the train, and more to do with a general requirement that someone cannot learn how to fully start and operate any train on the Swiss network, simply from a simulation game. Specifically they require that no information screens are accurate or functional (in terms of menus, buttons etc), and that only accelerating and braking be allowed by the players.'' So, in essence, SBB say no PZB, no SIFA, and more importantly no screens with accurate or functual readings, everything will be made static and false readings to allow a screen to display something on it rather than just blank, and certainly no directions into how to start a loco from cold, and everything else that was included with the swiss loco and train creations from various developers. I can live with that, it's unusual and hugely disappointing, but, we have to accept what SBB say, and Chris can keep an uptodate licence for his Swiss content in future, although with all these new restrictions he may avoid any conflicts in the coming years by steering clear, we'll have to wait and see what transpires. Pity that Paul Mersel quit, but, without working instruments, cab signalling, braking and speed dials, etc, it would negate a lot of what he created for all his Swiss locos to run authentically, over these last 10 year's, or so, but I'm sure he wouldn't want his creations to become unusable, or, unrealistiic, to his past customers and future train sim gamers. I'm sure we all wish him well in the future whatever he does. Cheerz. Steve..
Direct from the developer: “going against the operator's wishes……and I can tell a lot of people don't get that. They don't understand NDA's and license agreements - simply saying "paint it white and pretend it's not SBB" is something a payware developer simply cannot do “ If you want to argue against that, i suggest you write ChrisTrains, because either you know something they don’t, or it’s the other way around.
You are assuming that the licence covers only the branding of the trains, in terms of the external appearance, livery, operator logos etc. I do not know what is covered by the licence, but it sounds like it covers more territory than that, possibly including such areas as the likeness of the trains themselves, cab layouts and setup and perhaps even more. If so, and I must stress again that I am only speculating on the potential content of the licence, then producing a commercial model with no license is likely to be a non starter unless you have a fortune to spend on legal fees and a strong conviction that you are in the right.
Copyright laws are difficult for the layman to understand. As a musician who have had my music stolen on share sites through 20 years, and no legal muscle to go after anyone who did it, it’s obvious that almost everyone is oblivious to the concept of intellectual property.
I would imagine putting anything through a Swiss court would be prohibitively expensive and the moment SBB mention the risk of terrorism or criminal behaviour the gavel will come down in their favour, no matter how reasonable the counter argument. Followed by a legal bill for several thousand Swiss Francs (and the rest). And at what point do SBB decide to expand this to block representation of their route infrastructure and signalling systems as well, if provoked. I was trying to recall if Zusi 3 has any Swiss traction with accurate cab systems depicted as they could find themselves in the same boat, too.
I wonder if Chris Trains, and others, could release the DLC as AI so you have the trains in scenarios but they would be un-driveable. It should still be possible to release Rolling Stock with SBB Branding And I wonder if we will hear from Thomson and Rivet Game regarding their SBB Dlc?
We wont... Matt said, old TSC content won´t be affected. They reached some sort of commen sense agrement with SBB on this. Also most of that stuff are the Rhb routes, that don´t have that problem anyway.
But Christrains and TrainworX are obviously affected. And their ZUB systems are much more accurate. Rivet Games zub in tsc…does it even have brakingcurves and Freitaste? I don’t think so. It is just the old archaic “pre pzb” thing that was used at the very start of TSC where all you had to do was press q, and nothing would happen if you didn’t actually slow down.
