Route Extensions Vs. Remasters

"Route extensions" vs "modular routes" seem very similar. I can see the difference in theory, but in practice.... "modular routes" over time would accomplish the same thing and more because hooking two routes together IS an "extension" (Edinburgh and Fife Circle for example) I get the meaning of it... extensions would be parts not already parts of routes... but as more routes are added (with modularity) then those "gaps" would fill in and modular would be better over time to "connect" them for more complete services. It would mean LONGER "extensions" too since adding one route to another is effecitlvely adding dozens or miles on at a time, not just a few miles or 1 or 2 stations in a "route extension."
Now... I could be persuaded that "route extensions" is a good option if those meant more sidings, branch lines and playability options. (Extending SEHS to Dover on both "legs" would open up the Chunnel, the port, lots of freight and passenger options, and make the route a "loop" connecting the two "legs" so that'd be a LOT of playability for (relatively) smallish extension.

However, there's ALREADY a lot of "almost connected" content in the game already that with modularity you could connect and make nice long roues (for example you could drive from Reading down to Eastbourne across 4 routes with just a small less than a mile section gap to close) Great Western-> Bakerloo->London/Brighton->East Coastway. That would ALSO be more revenue for TSW as people would need all FOUR of them to make the "bigger route."
I don't know about London rails irl, but it LOOKS like you could also add Southeastern High Speed on there too for another short mile long section from Bakerloo to King's Cross? That would be 5 routes connected and a HUGE network that covers much of Southern England already in game.

So, a LITTLE route extension plus modularity (and TSW releasing routes in the future of course) could really be a game changer.

 

Merging routes is not possible unfortunately. There's a lot of core elements and the gameplay and signals do not work.

 

What I'd like to see is the opening up of all the available sidings in existing routes to allow for users to create scenarios/ operations involving delivery of wagons or shunting. This shouldn't be impossible to do, the track is already there, it just needs the points to be activated, and tracks given appropriate designations for planning purposes.. e.g. the sidings near Bingen Stadt, or the sidings on TVL.
If you wanted to expand a route, why not add the container terminal at Mainz, and some of the associated industrial sidings in that area.

 

Currently.... yes. That's been made clear. I thought the whole question was "if it could be done"?

 

100%. The assets are already THERE. They worked to create them. Why not use them? Much, much easier to use existing content better compared to starting from scratch. And yet.... a TON of unused track and assets just sitting there for some reason. Seems hugely wasteful.

 

Great way of breaking down what is improved in any given pack. GWE definitely deserves a level 4 upgrade. I would absolutely pay again for a better version that includes all that is currently missing.

 

Well if you're a PC user then you might be in for a surprise
Scenarios - Edinburgh 2 Glasgow - Extra Paths Mod Coming Soon

 

I had not paid much attention to the Cathcart Circle Remaster until suspension improvements would arrive. I must say I really prefer remasters over extensions. The remaster really looks really very good. I wish every route looked like that.

 

I would paid for an London to Bridgton Remaster or extension as an extension to London Bridge and other areas be nice

 

Both Extensions and Remasters are the cheapest way for DTG to generate come cash flow.
Both Extensions and Remasters aren't necessarily bad.
But Remasters still give me the feeling DTG skipped on 'quality' and 'quantity'' of the original first release.

A remastered route also seems a way to ask for money for the improvements,
so this remastered route should be 100% correct, updated to the latest game engine and DTG's 'trickery', all bugs erased, faultless and prototypical mainline, branchline, siding and disused track, all signals correctly placed, all catenary properly strung, no more floating cars over too wide roads with rectangular intersections, lifelike near trackside scenery, to make the route look as realistic as possible within the constraints of the game.

UE's handling of LOD's on trees and shadow rendering are perhaps beyond DTG's reach and are here to stay. So the remastered driving experience should be much superior to the original route, ooh and aah effect instead of @#$%@#$ game engine.

 

Regarding GWE, a route extension would be great. Just had a play on it having not played it for a good few months now, and what struck me was how well constructed the route is in terms of scenery placement, foliage etc. The route feels very realistic looking, as if each tree type was placed with care, for example. The countryside scenes out of Reading were really well done. So I don't feel it needs a remaster, just an extension of some sort (althoug the signalling could do with an upgrade).
As an aside, I just feel those earlier routes were a bit better in terms of vegetation placement and variation (NTP, TVL, GWE), even the lighting seems nicer weirdly enough - the recent routes can feel a bit washed out. I like ECML but I just felt the countryside scenery was bit rushed and very samey - the earlier routes always had something going on, something different to look at whilst rushing by.

 

That kind of ignores that the game gets new features added to it and generally improves over time. A route being worthy of an upgrade in 2024 doesn't mean it wasn't as good as it could have been in 2021 or 2019.

All remasters so far have been free.

 

Won’t happen as gwr was tsw2020

 

GWE would require a full rebuild to have any hope of any extension being added. Highly unlikely, a remaster is possible if anyone cares to do the work but the full rebuild is vastly more work than I believe anyone is willing to do.

 

I'd probably end up paying for it, if the timetable was good and it was maybe a bit longer than the existing route. But there are many interesting, feasible (to this layman) UK routes with plenty of varied gameplay which haven't seen the light of day yet - Riviera, North Wales Coast, Airedale/Wharfdale lines, various parts of the WCML, Portsmouth Direct Line to name a few - which I'd much rather see first.

Personally I also think it would be more interesting to extend or upgrade Brighton Main Line before GWML, perhaps combining it with East Coastway as they're both now old routes which could do with a simultaneous spruce up / optimisation / new TT. I'd also rather see a further extension to SEHS before GWML. Just my opinion though and others will inevitably feel differently.

 

seems a bit of rethorical question, as a route which was 100% complete with stock, paths and services from the start wouldn't need a remake later from the operations/game play point of view.

Regarding scenery and features one can always wish for more but given the way everything is cooked solid, this very much depends on DTG's willingness and resources (read enthousiasm and free time) when there is no paid upgrade planned.

 

Matt can you please make the current Peninsula Corridor with the Stadler Train and expend it to Gilroy

 

Well Matt, I'd personally be more than happy to pay for a rebuilt GWE but only on the proviso that the Thames Valley passenger and freight branches were all included this time and that the timetable was vastly more intensive and realistic. If extension to Newbury and Oxford were also possible I'd be delighted but definitely not without the branches. I have listed the branch lines on many occasions in multiple threads previously.

 

SEHS has already received a massive rebuild/upgrade compared to its original form. As for the BML/ECW merged route, I gather this is a non starter for many reasons although the omission of the Wivelsfield branch is a curiosity to this day. Not sure if the Wivelsfield branch is better added to BML or ECW but surely must be done at some point.

 

At a minimum if money is changing hands, I think it would need the three passenger branches adding, hopefully there's still a non cooked master copy kicking around somewhere.

Obviously licensing a bit of an issue but there is also the possibility of subsidising the rework by an additional DLC, similar to Cathcart with the 380. The obvious one would be the Class 165 which is more frequently seen on the stoppers than the 166's anyway, which the GWR Thames Valley Control tended to try and keep on the Gatwicks, Bedwyns and Oxford/Cotswold Line semi fasts.

Or you could add to DLOGW with a nice Class 50!

Another small but meaningful change would be the ability to run with cab doors open on the HST to admit a bit more of the MTU burble.

 

This. When the original came out there was no use of diorama's or whatever they are called. Those small details also add to how I perceive a remaster. There is so much missing from older routes that are a given in new routes.

 

I present to you this thread. While previous routes could definitely be made better from some more recent features (tbh I'm actually struggling to think of any beyond suspension, all of which it could be argued should have been there from the start in any simulation that takes itself seriously), the thread demonstrates that the opposite can also be true, that quality hasn't always gotten better with time. I recognise that there are good technical reasons (well not good reasons but at least comprehensible ones) why they won't be revisited, and why mediocrity for profit is a sustainable business model as long as people sustain it, and I guess it's here to stay for now.
Us Routes Decline In Detail? | Dovetail Games Forums

 

I read the tread but I'm not a fan of US freight so I never played Sand Patch Grade. Can't really comment on the NY remaster as there is too much fog and too much machine-that-goes-bing to really enjoy.

 

maybe a route extension that wouldn't need to completely be reworked because it's relatively new, could be ECML? My number one wish for the entire game would be seeing ECML extended from Doncaster to York, that one extra stop would make the absolute world of difference for me.

and for the record, i'd be happy to pay for the extra mileage from Doncaster to York too!

 

That's great, but I think not particularly necessary to understand the point I'm trying to make. It doesn't matter though as actually there's no point to my point. It won't change the reality in any way. *smiles sadly*

 

I think your point is that more US routes deserve remasters?

 

On your first point re: SEHS, I understand that - I'd personally be in favour of continually expanding the size of that route. I'd rather have fewer, bigger routes with more to do - SEHS is a good example but it would be even better if extended to Victoria, Charing Cross or Ramsgate/Dover. TSW's most disappointing routes for me are those with limited length and more importantly service variety - Glossop, Goblin, Maintalbahn etc.

You may disagree of course!

Re: BML/ECW - just for clarification I'm not suggesting any dynamic merge, I'm suggesting retiring both of the original (now fairly dated) routes and instead releasing them as a single route using the original scenery tiles (with some ToD4 and general upgrades), including the Wivelsfield branch. Think of it as a new route under the name 'London and the South Coast' or something similar/better. Most of the original BML timetable should be able to be carried over, with some modification to those services that run over the new branch line. ECW needs a new/realistic timetable anyway as the original is not prototypical and is old enough to still use simulated timings.

 

Ahh, no. Once again I should have gone for the jugular instead of hacking away at the fingernails..

To summarise-
DTG sacrifice quality for quantity.
This will not change.
There are technical and financial reasons for this.
It could be better, but won't be. I find this thought provoking around the subject of cost, accessibility and satisfaction.

To be clear, I think the product is fine, I think it's pretty good actually. I'm also of the opinion that it could be better. There's some sloppy output, errors and business practices which I find surprising in that they seem to occur without significant consequence.

 

But would you pay more for a route if there were less releases is probably the question to add

I'm not sure I would. The routes are rather short. Some are very boring but the pricing today is just pocket money

 

If it were bigger and had more to do / more locos, then unquestionably yes. I realise not everyone will agree and that's fine.

If we had something like (only as an example) Euston to New St with a 390, 350, 710 and 66, I'd happily fork out £60-70 if it were done well. It's a large, complicated route, and I'm under no illusions that it would be easy to produce (far from it).

Portsmouth Direct Line from Waterloo with Classes 444/450/455 including several of the London suburban branches (say via Epsom and Cobham, Hampton Court too), again £60-70 if done to the requisite quality.

On the flip side, I'm happy to leave the smaller branches on the table for £25 as I don't think they represent especially good quality for the amount of time I will end up playing them.

Again, I realise not everyone can spend £70 on a route or would want to - this is just my view.

 

Absolutely. I'm always willing to pay for something that is of good quality. This touches on the issues of accessibility though. It's one reason why I'm hopeful that the business model might include 3rd party developers producing not only complex traction, but also more complex simulation, complex visual representation (passenger packs, rolling stock packs etc), complex immersion packs (rosters, in game consequences for example), and much more. I'd pay for these products if they were well done, and importantly to this, I'm still on TSW3 because I feel that the quality of tsw4 hasn't warranted the cost (for me), so the converse is also true.

 

But TSW4 has bouncy trains and has Cathcart Circle remastered. That's already worth the price of TSW4

 

Which is a great example of the economics of accessibility, the reality of mediocrity, and the hoped for introduction of good quality but more expensive complex dlc.

 

Didn't dtg remaster sehs when they extended it?
If it was a free remaster or a paid extension, I would prefer the extension.

If I've driven all services and scenarios on a route, then the route is still going to seem dull and boring after it's remastered.
Whereas a extension breaths new life into it.

 

But the whole point of a remaster should be that it isn't dull anymore. If it doesn't wow you it ain't a good remaster

 

I don't mean the route looks dull as in the remaster hasn't changed the look of the route. Just dull as in.. here we go driving this same service from a to b again.

Sometimes just adding extra rolling stock to a route is far more satisfying than some added eye candy.
Look at London to Brighton for example. It's had quite a lot of visual improvements, implemented by modders which I appreciate. It didn't make the route any more exciting for me though.
With the addition of the class 700 now, I find myself playing the route a lot lately and enjoying it a lot.

 

But isn't that what remasters do? They all seem to be a vehicle for new DLC

 

WSR says otherwise.

 

True. But I don't see how you can make that route less dull with an extension or new rolling stock. Bought it after the remaster because it was very cheap. Have played it once and it's just way too slow for my taste. Don't think I even finished a service. That route was new to me

 

WSR was a personal passion project - the other remasters have been instigated by DTG (for direct or indirect commercial benefit), as far as I understand it.

 

Yes, a very dull route to play, but when in the right frame of mind it is a lovely way to spend 90 minutes on, especially after the upgrade. The best thing they did for that route were allowing the vast array of layered stock as that gives a bit more interest.

Oh, I honestly don't know, I were under the impression that all remasters were pet projects that devs chose to do in their spare time. I'm sure that's what we were told.

 

i think this is a really good point and something i agree with.

for example with ECML (and assuming as is almost guaranteed to be the case, what is released is what you get, not expecting any remasters or extensions and the route you get on day 1 is how it will always be)... i would rather pay £70 for Peterborough to York, with maybe Lincoln or Leeds added to that and maybe a class 91 or class 43 alongside the Azuma, than pay £30 for Peterborough to Doncaster as it stands.

the longer, the more complex, the more varied a route dlc is then absolutely the better.. and i'd more than happily pay more for it, as what you get on release day is almost certain to be what it is forever, so i'd rather it be as long and as full of life as possible on release (with the price tag to match) than a shorter and more basic route that has people constantly saying (why not extend here, why not extend there etc)

don't get me wrong i love thr ECML route in game, but if dtg turn around and say "we're going to extend it to York, or add this branch or this traction etc.. and it'll cost an extra £40" then i'm all in. I'd rather pay more for the quality of route length and gameplay than pay less and spend the next few years wishing it was more than it is.

same goes for WCML if that is coming.. give me London to Birmingham for £70 than London to Rugby at £30 anyday.. but again that's just my view on the state of the game.

Overall i'd rather pay more for a longer route than less for a smaller route that has you wishing it was longer in the first place.

 

Not always. Additional dlc or new rolling stock is always a bonus on any route. I'm quite happy to buy it. The route doesn't need a remaster though because the additional services has already improved it.
If dtg gave me 2 options... 1 remaster the route for free or remaster and a extension for 29.99 I'd chose the extension every time.

And if I had the choice over remaster the route or add additional services then I would choose the additional services.

Remasters don't do anything to the route in my opinion.

 

Hi guys, I wanted to ask you all what your opinions would be on the Birmingham snow hill lines in TSW? Such as the WMR class 172, and the chiltern mainline up to Leamington Spa?

 

Overall i'd rather pay more for a longer route than less for a smaller route that has you wishing it was longer in the first place.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you there. I would dig deeper for longer and busier routes.

I seem to remember someone from dtg saying those types of routes won't sell so its not something they are gonna do.

I think that a lot of players won't be willing to fork out that amount on a single route, although if the original route is say 29.99 then some additional dlc is what 12.99 these days? Then another 29.99 on a route extension, a year or so down the line is acceptable.