A quick question. Designed max speed of class 390 is 140 mph. Will it be capable of it or will it do only 125 mph?
I think the speed limits on WCML are 125mph. 110mph for non tilting trains. Of course you can always break them if you're not bothered about your score.
Could be wrong, but in real life the 390 might have a speed limiter on them to prevent then going above 125mph. I know on HSTs the speed would max out at around 128mph before a limiter would kick in and bring it back down. With the Class 800 series of units, they are also capable of 140mph (lack of ETCS or ERTMS prevents them running at higher speeds. Although I believe in the not to far future the line between Kings Cross and Peterborough? Will be going active allowing partial 140mph running), but they are currently limited to something like 124.9mph? (Stand to be corrected).
390s can go 140mph but are limited to 125 becuse of the TASS safety system I think. Plus our railways just aren’t built for those sorts of speeds; without In cab signalling like ETCS or TVM we aren’t allowed go faster
I believe they’re actually limited to 124.3mph (which is 200km/h). That lost 0.7mph costs about 30 seconds on a London - Glasgow.
I think the best plan is to try it out and, if you don’t get the colour medal you want, just drive the service again (or try it on a service that you have already completed). Certainly, I’d want to drive through Tring as fast as possible.
The 390s have a design speed of 140mph but cannot go above 125 because of no in cab signalling, similar to the ECML.
Depending on the implementation of TASS, you should be able to go on a route with a 140mph or higher speed limit and drive at that speed.
I nearly missed a train from Waterloo a few weeks ago, and I probably wouldn't have had to run through the station had my Pendolino from Glasgow to Euston arrived 30 seconds earlier
Funny topic really.. the back to back HST power cars at Doncaster, and now at Leicester, will max out at 135mph (I believe) and that’s without using gradients to your advantage. I’ve used a full 8-car set to get to something similar on the HS1 line to Ashford too.
In real life, drivers on the GWML were known to reach 140mph in service back before speed limits were stricter.
Well, the line from the Cross to Stoke Tunnel (just south of Grantham) is being made digital, which is what is required for 140mph running, but frankly there is a lot more than just digital signalling that needs to be done as there is an increased workload on infrastructure, which leads to that being improved and then requiring higher maintenance, for realistically shaving off a couple of minutes if you are lucky by running at 140 instead of 125. Yes the 80xs are limited to 124.89 (close enough to 124.9) but realistically that is the absolute maximum so run round in the upper end of the 123mph sort of zone. All these decimal points often get me confused! Yes HSTs are fast things which could do interesting stuff down stoke bank, even on the racetrack North of York they just wanted to go.
TASS restricts the train to 125mph, and will start shouting at you if you go above 127mph. If TASS is isolated or not available the train is limited to 110mph.
That’s how the Hitachis work not Class 390s. Class 390s have a system called TASS which, when active, will give an over speed alarm at 128mph and an Intervention at 130.5 mph (off on top of my head, I can get the exact figures if someone wants them). You will also get a TMS alert at 127mph which is information only. I believe it was 20 (?) TSR that ruined the record attempt. When you are not being speed supervised because of TASS isolated OR on a line not fitted with TASS, there is no speed supervision whatsoever. Again, you will get a TMS at 112mph but this is information only and will not trigger the brakes.
There are a few speculative ideas around that Pendolinos might be upgraded to 155mph capability in the future, so they could run Anglo Scottish services via HS2. There will soon be 3 sets of speed limits on the WCML, owing to the Everos being 125mph capable but currently limited to 110mph. The new set of limits will allow 805s and 807s to run at up to 125 on suitable stretches of line.
With regards to line speeds, it’s actually rather boring for a Class 390 in tilting mode. After the speed rises to 125mph just South of Wembley Central (7 miles from Euston), it’s literally 125mph all the way to and through Milton Keynes with the next time the speed drops on the fast line being 25 miles North of Milton Keynes at a place called Weedon. The only exception is the 110mph through Watford Junction so it is going to be a lot just looking out the window. Technically there are already 3 speed limits on the WCML as there are EPS differential boards like the one pictured below. The top speed is applicable for Class 221s and the bottom speed is applicable for Class 390s. The reason why Class 221s have lower speeds on a few locations is because they tilt 6 degrees where Class 390s can tilt 8 degrees. On the route in TSW, we will see 2 of these boards (well 4 as it’s in both directions). Berkhamstead: 100 PS, 115/125 EPS Linslade: 90 PS, 115/125 EPS down direction, 110/125 EPS up direction Fast lines will be very easy to learn as there are very few speed drops even non-tilt. Slow lines is a different matter.
Very useful, thank you. I’d been trying to remember the speed profile for conventional stock (as I suspect I’ll mostly drive the route using JT’s 87 in Free Roam). I remembered the 100 at Berkhamstead but I’d forgotten about the 90 at Linslade. Is there still a speed restriction through Wolverton (North of Milton Keynes, I know)? I remember it as being quite a significant curve through there. It’s impressive if the 390s can take it at 125.
No worries at all, happy to help. On both the fast lines, it’s 110 PS and 125 EPS. On both the slow lines, it’s 70 mph through Wolverton. As I’ve said, the slow lines are very up and down in speed so if you want to keep it simple for yourself, just do 75 mph max all the way from Euston - MKC and the only 2 speeds you have to worry about are at the two Ws- Watford tunnels and Wolverton where speed drops to 70. If you meant speed restrictions as in TSRs, no there haven’t been in a while at Wolverton. Funny enough though, there are 3 semi-permanent TSRs as there locations though: West London Junction - 90mph - Up Fast Bletchley - 100mph - Down Fast - “For signal sighting” issues!!! Hanslope Junction (just north of MKC) - 110mph - Up Fast With the speculative idea, I think it will remain just that unfortunately. Even just the Line Speed Initiative project which is to add some MU speeds between Euston - Weaver has come at a cost of over £200 million.
Great, thanks. I was referring to PSRs, but it’s interesting to hear about the TSRs too. That semi-permanent 100mph at Bletchley must cost a fair bit of time (although not if you’re calling at MK of course). I wish TSW had TSRs as they add a lot of interest to driving (I think they did it once in a scenario but the implementation was awful).
They tried TSR’s on ECML and Goblin Line, completely botched the requirements for boarding them out or as some were ESR’s didn’t provide a Dalek either. Instead we got Emily Turner casually popping up telling us, mind how you go. On the other issue, dropping from 125 briefly to 100 and back is not going to incur too large a time penalty, probably less than a minute.
I agree, less than a minute, but still a lot in the context of train punctuality. A big hit to take on every single train on the Down Main for a sustained period. Thousands of minutes a month, tens of thousands of pounds a month. In fairness, I don’t know exactly what it would take to address the issue - the cost might be in the millions - but at some point they’ll have to address it; or turn it into a PSR and adjust the sectional running times accordingly!
Well It won’t be costing anywhere near what you’re suggesting. The trains aren’t fined for not being exactly on time at every mile (and certainly not when it’s a NR imposed delay). Besides, the odd minute here and there on the WCML is nothing, the vast majority of Avanti’s services don’t leave Euston on within 10 minutes of their scheduled departure.
A bit harsh, don't you think? I've never had to use their services, but RTT is showing about 25 delays and 9 cancellations last Wednesday. Admittedly, that does look like a lot, but a lot ran to time.
Last Wednesday there were 25 instances of services being late into/out of Euston…between 7am & 12pm. I’m not going to count all of them but I’m not sure how you’ve worked out 25 delays for the entire day.
In any case I wasn’t attacking AWC with that particular comment, merely pointing out that there are issues long before a 100mph ESR.
I think you’d be surprised. Under the performance regime if a train loses a minute in that section and there is a known cause (such as a TSR) it is attributed - and if it’s attributed, there’s a cost. We were always taught £35 per minute, but that’s an average. In reality the cost is different depending on train, time and location - but I would imagine a minute affecting fast trains on the WCML is well above average in cost. The fact that some of the trains are already late due to other factors is irrelevant. Lost time is attributed, and paid for. Then there’s energy. How much does it cost to accelerate 500 tonnes of train back up from 100mph to 125mph? Then multiply that by a few thousand to get the monthly cost. A few more tens of thousands there. As regards the impact on punctuality. Are there bigger issues than a 100mph TSR? Absolutely. But the biggest part of railway punctuality is multiple small issues added together - not the occasional high-profile major failure. On a railway as congested as the WCML, a train only has to lose a minute or two and it’s affecting other trains around it, and they affect the next train, and so on. Before you know it the whole thing falls over. I’ve dealt with incidents containing hundreds of minutes of delay, all traced back to the loss of 1-2 minutes by 1 train. It’s like ripples on a pond, and once it starts, it takes interventions like cancellations or removing of stops to recover it.
