Bloody hell, for all that is good in this world please tell me you are not being serious. Yes, there are many more people away from the forum, but again, do you know their preference on era, I would say not.
I was just doing a regular Blackpool north to Preston service and while I was stopped and poulton le fylde station I saw this in the window, if I’m not mistaken that is a Class 50? Could this be the loco they’re working on?
What modern freight loco are you thinking about? The only "modern" freight locos I can think of are classes 66, 67, 68, 70, 88, 90 and 92. (The class 57 and 69 don't really count). Rivet Games are probably going to handle the class 68 & 88 as they have the Scotrail and DRS licences. DTG will probably handle the 67 as they are doing the Welsh stuff, and the 73 and 92 for the Caledonian sleeper, since Glasgow Central is their station asset. (At least I hope Rivet Games don't do the 73 and 92). Probably won't see a class 70 or 90 anytime soon, as Freightliner refuse to work with DTG. EDIT: Seems the 73s on the Caledonian sleeper are owned by GBRf.. so probably forget those too.
With respect we like our older content and you've got plenty of people developing modern content so I don't really see why we need more modern UK stuff? That's very much a DTG comfort zone of modern content so let JT do their thing because they're doing it brilliantly. Imo some of the best content in the game is the older content like NTP and TVL. And I think with older content you get so much more variety with the freight movements, the shunting operations on goods, parcels and paper trains which you wouldn't have to the same degree in a modern setting. Look at the drop off goods train scenario on PFR. BPO wouldn't have been anywhere near as good imo if it wasn't set with the BR content because the whole magic of that route is having anything showing up on such a mix of trains it's fantastic. BPO is in many people's opinions the best route in TSW and it was such a refreshing pick up. And I think if you miss out on a lot of that older content and go "Modern only" you really miss out a huge portion of railways in general and how and more importantly why everything has become what it is now. And I think with the popularity of heritage railways and these older routes it really is a look back into history.
Class 50 always looked like a class 31 on steroids... Or is that just me? Also, I'd love to see one named Henry or Dyson.
Sorry, couldn't resist. The class 50s were gone from the WCML by 1974, as the class 87s replaced them, but they are still fantastic locos that would be cool to have in TSW.
No, DVTs were introduced from 1989, so later than the WCMLoS setting. Im picking the new loco will be an 86, as that would make the most sense for the timetable and AI traffic etc. I'm also shaking my head at the 'one handled plastic units' comments. Like that even matters when pressing a button on your controller or keyboard, sat at your laptop or Mum's basement. Those put downs serve no purpose whatsoever. I enjoy all types of UK rail stock in TSW, but never take it too seriously.
Speaking as someone who plays on PS5 and therefor uses a controller, there is a huge difference when a one handled EMU comes into the picture. Hand me literally any of the UK one handled units and even with AWS engaged, I can drive it with one hand on the controller. Throttle and brake are both on the right side, EWS acknowledgement is on the right side, moving the camera around is on the right side, pretty much the only thing I have to apply my left hand for is to control doors and that's only if it doesn't have cab buttons for them, which 99% of modern trains do. The other side of it is that they just aren't very engaging. Throttle up or brake with your right hand, tap AWS when it beeps and give a quick glance to the screen to see if it's because of a yellow signal. If it is, slow down which your perfectly computer-assisted and streamlined multiple unit will never struggle to do or fight back against you, because even adding extra length in the form of extra units doesn't affect performance in any way as they have their own traction motors also. On the other hand, even staying in the modern period, take a freight run with the infamous Class 66. Immediately you have to think about throttle differently. Your left hand is now engaged with braking, which you have to be much more calculated about as it's just an air brake rather than having the assistance of an electric brake, and it will take way longer for the brakes to release or apply throughout the train. And speaking of the overall train, every wagon you add will affect your performance. Even on less heavy trains, the same applies to older loco hauled passenger services. and although the weight and traction issue isn't a thing with things like second gen DMUs like the Pacers and Sprinters, they still have a much more engaging experience purely out of the fact that you actually have to be calculated with brake application. For all that I've just said, I actually do like certain one handled units and have several that I would love to see implemented. But they have something unique and interesting to bring to the table. The bi-mode 755 with its unique central engine car, the Voyager as a modern day high speed DMU with tilting technology, and I was among those wishing for the iconic Pendolino with its tilting technology also. But with the 350 we're getting, I guarantee the experience of driving it will be exactly the same as the 380, 385, 387, 377, 375, 465, 323... the list goes on.
There is a desire for predictably, trains that drive the same, on a clock face timetable with rigid routing always using the same platforms etc. The reality is things change, delays happen etc. The issue I always had with TSC is scenarios are predictable, worse still if you create them. I think I know why TSW won't put random events I but really for me at least its an immersion breaker.
All the class 50s had been withdrawn from the WCML by the late 70s/early 80s so it would sadly be 'inaccurate' for them to be the DLC for Over Shap which is set in 1986. I hope it is the APT but the 86 and 25 are good shouts tbh.. Heck, it could even be a another version of the Class 37 for all we know if JT aren't re-doing the 37 the same way they re-did the 47 for Blackpool Branches
37s weren't that common on the this part of the WCML in the 80s - most you'd see is a couple double-heading the Redcar-Workington freights through the bottom of Carlisle. That aside, who needs another 37? Not me Got me worried now it'll be some lame reskin job
These were their words in the roadmap article: "Development has also started on our first loco add-on, which itself will be for WCML and add even more highly anticipated variety.” To me that says that it will be for their WCML route.
class 90 would be awesome. Also one other thing i suddenly came to mind, did the APT even still ran/exist during the time period that over the shap takes place in?
The 90 is too late for the time period. As for the APT, I believe that was out of service by November 85, certainly as far as running up the main line anyway. I'll say that a 1986 setting can't be a hard limit though, as station and lineside infrastructure, BRUTE trolleys, yellow TV screens etc would all still be a thing into the 90s, so a Class 90 and DVT would 'fit' the surroundings nicely. 1986 is quite specific and limiting, does anyone know why that year was chosen by JT?
They had to pick a specific year just to have a fully accurate timetable. Thinking back to the Blackpool Branches launch, I believe 1986 was chosen because it offered the most variety, the Pacer was introduced there in 1984, so it couldn't have been sooner, push the route much later and everything turns grey instead of blue. They also mentioned at the time that there was some artisitic licence at play, as the Class 40 can substitute in despite being withdrawn in 1985, so no, it isn't a hard limit. Personal opinion time, but in terms of the Class 90 if I look at any picture of it I see a 'modern' locomotive, if I look at any picture of the Class 87 I see a 'heritage' one. If I saw something as modern looking as a Class 90 running amongst the rest of the rolling stock they have shown us for Preston - Carlisle it would completely shatter the immersion for me. I think the same would probably be said for the APT, while I would like it for the uniqueness, it would look out of place. If that's what we get then I would likely play the APT services and then either delete the DLC or turn off the layer so as not to ruin the asthetic of the core route.
The other problem with the 90 is it generally worked the same trains as the 87 - so it replaces it on the route rather than complimenting it. They’d be better off adding a loco which worked different trains, such as a 25 or an 86.
I would hope it isn't a class 90. You would need the DVT also really. By the time the 90 came out the WCML would almost exclusively be intercity executive livery and being repainted into Swallow livery. A class 90 alongside blue/grey rakes of coaches would not be accurate. Then again class 40's wouldn't be seen but presumably will be.
Here’s a thought - maybe they are going to give us something really retro, a Class 17 Clayton or one of the original LMS Diesels! Both long gone by the time this route is set, of course.
Although I’d rather have something appropriate to the era of the route, the 10000/10001 LMS diesels would be intriguing. Does anyone actually have accurate performance data for them, though?
If I recall Railway Magazine had a regular feature going back to steam days called something like Locomotive Practice and Performance although I'm not sure how detailed it was. They used to time runs over long distances so they likely would have covered runs on 10000/10001. If not the Railway Observer might have such data. I have lots of back issues if that. I am sure the data is available somewhere.
Sound wise, well would probably have to be aliased to the Class 40 as I doubt there are any actual recordings in existence. Maybe roughen up the exhaust a bit.
I'd very much doubt it would be a 90, different era which wouldn't fit into 1986, so would need separate timetables, I couldn't be doing with seeing a 40 and a 90 running around at the same time. Would be nice to have the 86 but what I'm really hoping for is the 25, would suit nicely for that route and of course NTP
Yes, ‘Practice and Performance’ was always my favourite part of the magazine. I think it declared itself the UK’s longest running magazine column or similar, as it had been going for many decades, way back into steam days. From the moment I became interested in railways I always wanted to go beyond just looking at them and photographing them - I wanted to know how they worked and how they performed, how different locomotives compared to each other, how the people who operated them could do so differently to achieve better results (which is where the ‘Steam: a realistic challenge’ thread comes from of course) - ‘Practice and Performance’ was the perfect kind of writing for me.
Good question though I doubt there is any reference for it or even many people left standing who recalls what they sound like. Similar issue to the (proper) Blue Pullman. All the archive footage undoubtedly dubbed so we can only guess at the sound they made, maybe similar to a MAN engine diesel hydraulic loco.
Very much agree with you. Have recently been playing and making scenarios on WCML based on the Intercity days and it's a tonne of fun, especially the latter. I managed to grab some 1993 Timetables for the WCML and some WTTs (not free as they predate Railtrack) and it's a lot more fun to see the variations of consist, like having a mix of MK2s, MK1 BGs and MK3s as long as learning MK2s did frequently run with MK3 DVTs. As well as that seeing the variations of the Intercity Livery across different 86s and 87s, as well as having different traffic like 47s and HSTs on the XC services and even some 37s pulling B'ham International to Llandudno services. The process of looking through flickr to see the various possible consists and placing them down to provide a nice variety is a lot more fun than just plopping down a 350 or 390 and just checking it's the correct length (and sometimes livery for the 350 or any modern unit on other routes). Although saying that, it's a lot more time consuming!!! However we still need some 304s 305s and 312s to appear in game, but 303s are an OK sub. (Apologies for going very off topic)
Anychance this loco could be a 1st gen slam door EMU? would that fit into the era if they ran on that section? I’m surprised after so many years we still don’t have a slam door emu, and for that matter hardly any emu from the BR era with the 313 and 314 being the only entry.
Not really because EMU’s rarely strayed north of Crewe, or Weaver Junction, let alone Preston. There might have been the odd relief service with a 304 or 310 but even those tended to use loco hauled stock, usually Mark Ones that were kept spare largely for that purpose with whatever electric loco could be turned out. The scattering of local services that ran north of Preston were through workings to the Morecambe, Furness or Windermere lines and DMU or in the case of Barrow sometimes a Class 31 and short loco hauled rake.
fair enough, thank you for the info. Not familiar with the route stock as I live ‘down souf’ so hoped a 310 might squeeze in.
I think there was a one off occasion when a 310 might have made it to Preston or even Carlisle on a relief from Birmingham. Biggest issue would have been traincrew traction knowledge as the depots who worked north of Preston wouldn’t sign 310’s. Do you would have needed someone to conduct the Birmingham driver and guard for the route knowledge north of Preston. The 310 fleet in particular was intensively utilised and there weren’t usually an awful lot of spare sets lying around to diagram to what would have been eight hours out and back in all likelihood.
The way this thread has developed makes for very interesting reading, and as a playful tease has put me in mind of
The following timings taken from O.S Nock's 'Locomotive Practice and Performance' book, 1989. Class 40 and 10001 are entries 6 and 7 respectively. I took many timing runs too, I will have to dig them out! None as interesting as the great O.S Nock though.
Great set of timings. Really tricky to compare because of the signal checks and whatever caused 10001 to stop at Tebay, but it does seem clear that the 40 out-performed 10001 to a degree not fully explained by the heavier load. I believe 10000 and 10001 were normally used together on expresses as alone they couldn’t keep time on schedules designed for Duchesses. So far as it’s possible to tell, it looks as if the 40 can’t match the Duchesses, but has the edge over Duke of Gloucester.
There was actually a short lived diagram running all the way to Lancaster with a 312 in Saturday only diagram in 1987, going by the dates it lasted at least a few months https://www.flickr.com/photos/martynhilbert/26497696141/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/66765...2g8h9Yb-2fbXQAy-k46Qkv-2oDsVyL-29PmHH3-m4BtJ3 304s did also randomly turn up at Preston along with 310s https://www.flickr.com/photos/marty...-2p7miNu-2p7fmxo-MHvZxx-MEMDYj-LTr6dw-2kZmpuD https://www.flickr.com/photos/marty...-2p7miNu-2p7fmxo-MHvZxx-MEMDYj-LTr6dw-2kZmpuD Even more randomly (although 1982) a double 310 coming in on a relief from Carlisle! https://www.flickr.com/photos/psrp/51013562481/in/photolist-24wyuZy-2kHTQQH-cxw9cm-ojJrtW
Only *just* behind 46241 but not too bad for an overweight underpowered 2000 hp diesel (that whistles).
Tis, true (unfortunately for the JT route) the last Class 50 transferred to the Western Region in 1977, 50031 being the last to leave Crewe Depot during that year.
Yes, the Duchesses and Duke of Gloucester are clearly significantly more powerful than the 40, but they can’t produce that power continuously over long periods of time, which the 40 can. Incidentally, I understand Duke of Gloucester performs significantly better now with the modifications made since preservation - better than a Duchess, it’s said.
The class 56 and 58 ran MGR trains to Rugeley Power Station, through Walsall and Wolverhampton then heading North back up the WCML. The class 58s all entered service in "Railfreight Red Stripe" livery, so they made a nice change from seeing BR blue on everything.
