Wcml South - Not Good Enough

I cannot and do not want to use Just trains as a comparison for DTG routes. I don't even expect DTG to deliver exactly the same quality. DLCs from DTG doesn't have to be of the same quality as Just Trains. Just Trains has built a route so far and they had plenty of time to do it and could take care of every single object until the route was finished. DTG can't afford such time intensive work, I understand that very well. If the game received routes at the same interval as the Just Trains tracks, the whole game would already be dead.

As a player, I simply expect that there is at least a consistent quality. First comes a route from DTG that's okay, while the next route after that looks like they've forgotten everything they've already done in other DLC. Unfortunately, it doesn't always help to just add new rolling stock and say that's why players are buying it all. In my opinion, the quality of the routes has to be right first. I've never played Goblin, but according to player feedback it was a pretty good route visually. Unfortunately, you can't see any of that in the WCML.

I wanted to give DTG and TSW5 a chance and had pre-ordered the deluxe version, but after the new route dropped I unfortunately had to request a refund. To date, TSW5 is unfortunately dead for me.

 

I have decided not to buy TSW5 but instead take the free core update. I love the WCML South but I want to wait and see if DTG can improve the obvious faults I and many others saw on the stream. My biggest gripe is the timetable for the LO 710 , the devs do not seem to have responded to this criticism which makes me believe that the fast turnaround of these services is actually being relegated to a paltry train every 90 minutes. The regular sight of the Overground services when driving other trains on this line is part of the real experience. Relegating Overground services to to a bit part is not right.
The silence from DTG on the many criticisms is deafening. It seems that they have made a huge error subcontracting this flagship route out to an untrustworthy company, though I cannot be certain of that. I have not even addressed the poor lighting especially at night which knocks for 6 the nighttime timetable and the vanishing act of 350 8 car units. The Pendo's lack of track I could live with if everything else was right. I shall buy in the future either when they fix these significant problems or when it falls to a price I that I consider I'm not overpaying.
I'm not interested in the other routes as I primarily drive UK routes and US freight in the game. Perhaps in future sales.

 

I think it’s time for the community to take a stand. Maybe use the free core update but don’t buy the main game or routes until there’s a significant upgrade in quality.

It’s the only way. People need to stop worrying that by holding back they will kill the game - that definitely won’t happen, but it will make the money men sit up.

 

DTG are always watching the forums and I say they have realised that the player base is not happy with TSW 4, so they have decided to give us what Matt pretty much called an updated and they admitted they need to repackage it as a new game to get new players. Second reason for the free update is there are no large improvements in the TSW 5 (TSW 4.1) that would warrant charging for it, if DTG charged they would just annoy the already annoyed players. There are rumours flying around on here that DTG subcontracted the route out to another developer, do we have actual proof? If DTG did, what have they being up to or has previous commitments /DLCs caused this?

 

That's where I'm at - I'm grateful for the free update, but I can't be doing with the fact that the lighting is still so inconsistent and the suspension has been handled so poorly. I work in software development - there's absolutely no way we'd do a show and tell showing features that had been outstanding for a year, and a week later, go back to (some of) those stakeholders saying, "oh yeah, wasn't ready after all" and not have any other comms about it - as a Head of Delivery, I'd be getting a right going over.

Base update plus the JT route in the future will be fine for me I think.

 

I don't think the "community" will do that. I don't even see a reason for me to do so far. I personally don't see the big fuzz with WMCL. But I do get why people from the UK are upset. They know the route, know how busy it is. That's why I want a route in my backyard so I can complain about everything that is wrong with it whilst UK players would call it the best route ever made in TSW and I would comment that it would be so much better if this and that was done this or that way.

This doesn't look like NYC Trenton in the preview. That route I even could spot the mistakes when first shown. WMCL just looks like I would a UK route to look like because of the lack of knowledge of the route. I guess for non UK players there is not much reason to take a stand at the moment

 

That’s not even remotely the case. The issues are largely nothing to do with it being a UK route.

 

I don't think it is fair to compare JT and DTG. JT's routes are wonderful but they obviously can take much more time over their route.

If DTG made one or two routes a year it would be just as good and they would be bankrupt!

 

Think about that statement for a second.

If that’s the case (and I don’t think it is, which is my opinion) then dare I say DTG’s costs are too high, probably because they have too many people not actually contributing to making computer games. If JT, a small and very niche studio, is able to make quality content and make a profit at the same time where DTG can’t as producer, then by definition there is something very wrong with DTG’s business model. Remember that as producer, DTG will also take a cut of JT and every other 3rd parties income. I don’t believe this is actually an issue anyway. On the whole DTG’s content is generally much better now than it has been, problems with the core aside. I don’t think DTG really have a massive quality problem. There is, however, one 3rd party studio that is falling short and dragging the game down. Ultimately that is the issue here.

A lot of things get said on this forum that are passed off as fact with absolutely no proof at all to back it up. Where is the evidence to say that if DTG were to produce less, higher quality content they would go bankrupt?

 

Mate don't be getting your hopes up on the US route, cars and traffic are awful as is usually the scenery on those routes. Imagine flying past dozens of ropey looking cars with no shadows and poor road markings? Complete immersion breaker.

 

By definition if you can make the PC version desirable to play from the vanilla (because it was absolutely horrific without your lighting) and you are doing it as a hobby, a development studio should easily be able to fulfil it.

 

I thought about it long enough thank you.

DTG produce far more content than JT as they need to appeal to a wider audience and of course they are have a much larger wage bill!

If anyone reads any posts on here as anything more than an opinion then that is their problem, unless a statement is made backing something up or staying something as a fact.

 

There you go again. You make that as a statement of fact when it’s simply an opinion.

 

I would say that is the problem - DTG make too much content way to fast. They seriously need to slow down and concentrate more on quality. When they did do a short route, the 13 miles of the LO Suffragette Line they smashed it out of the park, which shows if they apply themselves they can build good routes. But somebody involved, I don't know if it's the higher ups at DTG or Focus, forced them to turf DLC out like some fast factory production line regardless of cutting corners. This results in lots of money coming in quickly from them, but ever increasing disgruntlement of the player base, which has reached a crescendo with WCML. It's not good enough to charge 10 quid more than TSC for a generally shorter route with less rolling stock on it, both drivable and ai. Something needs to change because a lot of us are going to change our buying habits I think. We want quality over quantity.

 

They've reduced the London Overground 15 minute service to one every 90 minutes. They've waved their magic wand and turned all LNWR 350 services in to just 4 car units, they've turned off the lights in London and the suburbs at night, surely you don't have to live in the UK to see that this is unacceptable? I mean the LO one is glaringly obvious as it's a metro type line, those don't run every 90 minutes!

 

Well if you look at the amount of DLC the two produce what conclusion do you come to?

DTG have routes from several different countries, JT have made routes for one country.

Why do you suspect DTG don't have a higher wage bill, I've seen figures of over 100 employees quoted, how many do you think JT have?

You are just being contrary now and frankly there is no point trying to have a discussion on these lines.

 

Maybe they do. But their content has been a lot better for the last couple of years. Routes like Rosenheim, Semmeringbahn and content like the 380 are very good.

 

The conclusion I come to is that DTG churn out too many routes, too fast, and that their quality suffers because of it.

 

Well that is likely true and is an obvious conclusion to come to.

 

San Bernardino is not on my watchlist. I don't have any hopes it will be up my ally. Frankfurt is what I'm looking forward the most. I'm also not going to base my impressions on those of the German player base as they will react the same as the UK player base does on UK routes.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everyone is wrong and WMCL is the best route I ever seen. I just don't have the knowledge about the route that would highlight all the shortcomings with that route.

 

I will get TSW5 on game pass then download the 390 separately hopefully the WCML is in a better condition than the preview stream

 

The problem is the yearly releases, Matt says each route is 25-30 devs working for 4 months. For TSW3 DTG themselves made the 3 core routes plus 6 route add-ons throughout the year. For TSW4 they again made 3 core routes, although only 5 route add-ons - I suspect the LIRR problems are the only reason there weren't 6 as San Bernadino was probably meant for TSW4 and then MBTA Commuter as the TSW5 core route, which would explain why MBTA is near release but not in time for TSW5's launch.

So overall they have the staff levels to make 3 routes every 4 months.

The problem with the annual release is there is very little wiggle room in there, the only way for a dev team to spend longer on a route is to only deliver 2 routes in a year instead of 3. That is quite a drop in income for DTG, so instead they do whatever they can within their set 4 month window, even if it means quality falls short.

 

Just my five cents: Over the last two years, at least the people here on the forum who bought the Rush Hour Package, should now know: Do not buy any DTG product in advance. Think about it: When were we really satisfied with the product from launch? I can't think of one.
Besides that. I wasn't sold on WCML from the start because of its length. Guys, the want to sell an extra high speed train with it and the route doesn't even give it a chance to strech its legs. Btw: The reason of its length was its complex London part. That would have been the result with ECML if it started in London. But both routes, in my opinion are because of that unattractive.
And unfortunately we still have no option to link routes, so we will get more short routes until that is solved (if ever).
My hopes are on the german routes, but again: I get the Upgrade and wait until I think the route is worthy my money.

 

Ok guys. There are some gaps in the timetable. The 90-minute gap in the 710 timetable stands out. Has anyone ever seriously looked into why this gap exists at all? I mean, if someone wants to write a book the old-fashioned way by hand, will they just turn blank pages at some point and say the book is finished at the end? My Book has 350 pages but only 270 are filled with text. What are the readers supposed to think?

What I'm getting at is, imagine you're creating this timetable right now. Why would you have a gap of 90 minutes in there? Just like that? Was it laziness? Did they think no one will notice this? Did you just finish work and forget where you left off the next day? How can something so obvious happen? You create 17 identical trains every 15 minutes, but on the 18th train you create a gap of 90 minutes. I just don't understand that. Maybe there really is a good reason for it, but I haven't found it yet.

 

Of course, it is all about money and the more money DTG, the more money DTG because they will expand as a business, more mouths at the table to be fed unless the box clever and looking at the rushed work, they ain't boxing clever.

 

Yes, but I would say DTG need to stop completely and fix what is wrong with TSW4, they are constantly on the back foot trying to patch bugs with this, produce routes, carry out updates and then produce a new product every year, it's too much. Just my opinion, but just look at the state WCML was presented, that just backs up what I am saying, cast iron proof. The brand ambassador (wolf in sheep clothing) will try and lead people into buying a dodgy product, don't listen to them, take the free update and let DTG sweat for a change rather than us "the customer" having to wait for a company. Would you buy a brand new car off a dealer and they had to push start the car, gearbox hanging out it or take an excuse that they will fix the engine for you in a future update...Errr no!!! So, why settle for this?

 

There Are no reasons for it,
Goblin has The correct Timetable every 15 Minute

 

Possible explanations on DTG's silence:

1. They are hoping people will forget about it and will instead try to cover up there mess by either releasing more content, i.e DLC's on new routes, locos etc.

2. They could also be constructing an appropriate response to the reported mass bugs on the West Coast Main Line. Coming from incorrect lighting at stations, tunnels and during night hours as well to the half completed timetable.

3. Another option is they may as well do a NYT all over again by keeping the silence and will come back a year later on the lines 'we've listened to your feedback and we'll fix the timetable and bugs'. To still leave the timetable and the bugs in a state as NYT is despite DTG did a somewhat improvement.

 

Don't forget JT is a small team working route by route when we know for a fact DTG has multiple route building teams. That also has to be considered in the long run with content and quality issues.

 

I would really appreciate some advice here. I am REALLY on the fence with what to do about TSW5. I have always wanted the WCML and have been waiting for years for it to come. It is a special route for me as I spent much of my childhood going into London from the Midlands. I was so excited when this route was announced, yet I am seeing lots of you here raise concerns. I dont own the London Overground route so that timetable issue wont affect me, yet I have seen other issues raised. I was thinking of getting the £53 Deluxe version as it offers the best value for the routes I like as I am also interested in the German route/trains. So do I make a stand to all the issues and get the free version, or pay the £53 before the 10% discount ends. Also I have not bought anything on TSW4 since March so its getting dry now and running out of stuff to do. I appreciate any replies. Thanks.

 

Honestly, reason i’m getting it is cause of 350 and 390. Two most fav trains. Always wanted the WCML just its shorter than i was expecting. But £54 is a bargain tbh.
I can’t wait for it as i get early access

 

If you haven't watched the stream I would do so and make your mind up.

There will be differing views on here, I don't think the route is as bad as some are making out, my main gripe is the timetable which I feel isn't what we expect from DTG now. I watched the stream twice.

However some of the problems raised by others might be deal breakers.

I would never base purchasing decisions from peoples opinions good or bad. I always do my own research.

As said above £54 is a good deal but maybe not if you are only into UK trains.

 

What you said mate! I’m disappointed with the timetable that was shown and mainly my big issue for me is the distance. But scenery looks great

 

Yeah I did watch the stream, It was annoying as there was too much talking but I really did enjoy seeing the Class 390 in game.

 

I would wait for one of the ambassador preview streams as there is less talking generally.

 

Yes I think the scenery generally looked good too. I am conflicted at the moment because of the timetable as realistic operations are something which I find more important, scenery is too of course.

 

I will probably get the route in the Deluxe package, but only because its something I have wanted forever and cant wait for discounts which could take a while.

 

I will download the game on gamepass and buy the 390 separately makes sense

 

I would say be wary. You can still get the free core upgrade and then see how it pans out and add it later if it improves which is what I'm going to do. Also the WCML without the London Overground is just wrong, the 710's are a huge part of that line running every 15 minutes and without them even as ai it's just going to look unauthentic. Add to that the 350 is now minus it's branding and the 390 is going to run out of route pretty quick.
My honest advice would be to run the WCML South on TSC ideally with RW Enhancer to bring the graphics up to current level and rid you of any stuttering from the vanilla game. You can then drive your Pendo all the way to Birmingham. But ultimately it's your choice.

 

See if one thing that would get me to refund it is if it is announced Rivet have had to play a big part with it. As some saying it is a Rivet type product because of gaps. foilage and structures. Also timetable, rivet awful at that.
When I saw the stream it looked decent but hey ho. Rivet just ruin lots of TSW, Fife circle line was just disgusting. Worst product I have ever bought

 

What dont you like about Fife Circle, I was driving that last night.

 

Everything, Timetable, AI timetable, Scenery is awful. ITs pretty lifeless.

 

No one knows what Rivit did on the route so much of it is speculation. It could have been a few buildings or half the route and the timetable I suspect we won't know for sure.

Bare in mind they worked on Cathcart and that is okay. IOW, Edinburgh to Glasgow and Berninalinie don't have particularly bad scenery.

 

Just buy it

Or don't

Only you can decide

 

This is probably the most accurate conclusion that creates such a rift among the most hardcore TSW enthusiasts.

 

I probably will.

 

I think the above is the crux of the argument - I'm not buying it because I don't care enough for the routes, and I definitely don't like the engineering. However, if it's something that you've been waiting for for ages, and it's your favourite, and you've got the money, then that's different, who is anyone to tell you what to do. I guess there's the risk that any potential disappointment you feel is amplified, but that's the chance isn't it.

I like old Land Rovers, I'm sure there's many people who'd tell me that they're overpriced, unreliable heaps of junk, but I like them all the same, so buy them (then moan and grumble about the bills). Why is this any different?

 

I've decided to wait on the early release players to post what the timetable, scenery and other issues raised are really like in the release build before I make a decision. I have to say DTGs silence isn't helping me decide to get it though. I've read Alex's post a few times now and reading between the lines it sounds very much like "yeah nothing is getting fixed till after release then maybe ...". If that preview stream really was a broken build with a load of the issues fixed already I do not in any way understand why that post from Alex wouldn't have just cleared that up instantly.

You definitely need Goblin/Suffragette though to get the most out of the London end of this route.

 

Another £24 to spend. That line barely goes on discount. I think the last time it did was only 20% or something.

 

It's quite recent a release so won't be on a bigger discount for a while I imagine.