Dtgs Stance On Us Freight

So we all know that DTG has stopped doing US freight routes, But has freight locomotive DLCs still been thought on still?
It would be nice to get at least new freight locomotives if we won't get routes from DTG as in my opinion relying on just third party content with how small the US third party maker base is means we just wait longer and longer. If you’re not gonna do any new freight routes at least do freight DLCs. SPG could use a ES44AH or SD70AC/SD70MACs. CJP could take use with a BNSF SD70MAC or Dash 9. SMH could go for a UP GEVO or UP SD70MAC or a UP Dash 9. HSC could easily go for a NS AC44C6M (rebuilt Dash 9-44CW) or a NS SD70ACC or a SD70ACU etc etc) there’s just so many possibilities to do with freight even though DTG won’t make no more US freight routes as of right now. Hopefully they should will try and do loco DLCs so we don’t wait for third parties.

 

It's access to the locomotives that's the issue.

The opposite could be their solution: routes using existing stock.

 

Thank goodness for TSC.

 

And Run 8. Who seem to have no issues when it comes to research and producing new content.

 

Good point Vern.

 

Thats kinda the problem. People dont like re-used stock. The complaints with san bernadino are already that it only has a reskinned loco even tho thats the only option for this route. People want knew locos and not to pay for reskinned old ones and as long as DTG cant access the loco's its kinda a lost cause. Im fine with having mostly passenger focused routes with some freight on the side. works for germany

 

Thats a very good point.. exclusivity agreement perhaps but thats a big ask for a game dev to acquire..

 

Reading between the lines I think DTG's abandonment of US freight has more to do with sales figures, I also believe that had this game been purely a pc game then freight in general, and also vintage, would sell better as in TSC. It seems that a large chunk of the player base are only interested in one handled whizzy EMU's. Which chunk of the player base it it? You decide.

 

So you believe US freight would sell better if a lot less people had access to it? I have some doubts…

Also, the reason we have so many modern one-handed multiple units, is because that’s just about all you guys use in the UK now. In real life. That’s the absolute state of modern rail across the pond. Console players didn’t cause that.

We have plenty of solid loco-hauled content in Austria and Germany at the moment, and guess what, it’s selling. We continue to get loco-hauled passenger content out of the US. They’re able to do that content well enough. Why? Access.

Access is a real thing. Same reason we have the class 66 recycled 100 times over and over again instead of other modern UK freight locos.

 

I used to get bored quite quickly with us freight, although I'd still buy it.
Since the free roam mode and consist designer was introduced I've been spending quite a lot of time on us routes.

Even on the non freight routes running freight.

Dtg should continue with freight routes.

 

I do believe that because there is an argument that says the pc only train games have lots of US freight; TSC, Trainz, Run8 etc. But TSW has I believe half or over half console players and it's the only game where US freight is being dropped. It may well be that they like to relax more in front of their tv with a straightforward passenger run in a one handled EMU. All they have to do is open and close doors so a wide range of control bindings are not necessary. They are perfectly entitled to do that of course, but it must affect sales in a big way if over half your customers don't want to faff about playing a US freight loco with multiple controls, I means just look at the braking options alone for example.
So yes, unless you can give a better reason for US freight being given the elbow, and lack of access I don't believe because Run8 can get access without a problem, in addition until relatively recently DTG got very good access which is why there are so many US freight routes in the game, then it allegedly stopped almost overnight. Why? I asked Matt in a post on here about why the sudden 360 - no reply.
It's because of sales imo and that could be because of the clienteles preferences.

 

Compare the numbers between Run8 and TSW with amount of players. Not even close. So US frieght does not sell well.

You are in the minority if you like frieght like me.

Also Run 8 has less than 25 employees who all have 2nd jobs because they don't get paid enough from this. It is more a passion product. And I believe thay are based in the US as well, which would be why they have better access.

 

Yes you are probably right but to cut off 2/3 of your player base is financially bad.

This is why they are stopping making routes for US frieght.

I would figure they would budget the cost of making a route vs estimated sales. So to be successful you calculate 50% of users buy it and you make a profit. Or else it is not worth making a route.

With your theory only 33% of players would buy it. Doesn't sound profitable to me and just a waste of time and money when you can make a route that 66% would buy.

So that is why, also DTG employees generally this is thier bread and butter where Run8 is a passion product from a small company that the employees all have regular day jobs plus Run8.

 

As someone interested mainly in UK Passenger and a bit of German Passenger, I'll give my 2 Cents on this point:

I've always been willing to try different types of trains - German freight with the Vectron, UK Freight in the Class 66, Shunting with the 363 or the Class 08 - even US Passenger on Boston - Providence; the MBTA Commuter & San Bernardino lines do interest me, and i might pick up Peninsula Corridor as it's dirt-cheap on Xbox.

However, despite attempts to give it a chance on Cajon Pass or Sand Patch, US Freight never got to me because it's not a very casual game.

Trains are heavy, powerful and slow. Brake too much and you'll take a while to recover speed, or put a light loco a notch too high and you'll break the land speed record.

The scenery goes by at such a pace in which it feels like you're best friends with the rock you just passed, before a tragic departure about five minutes later.

I understand why US Freight is interesting/fun for people who do like it - it's a much more challenging style of gameplay (which I like), but a tedious one at that.

But for me, who has a comfort zone / need for enjoyment to bring myself to play a service - it's a no.

And I think there's a lot of people like that, be it the same as me or "casuals."

That's probably why US Freight isn't huge and lacks much appeal.

 

One of the ongoing issues with US freight in TSW and to some extent TSC, is that it's much too regimented. Strict A to B moves or a bit of switching with no real purpose - think there was a 2 hour scenario on SPG or Clinchfield which had you moving rakes of cars from one end of the yard to the other to end up formed exactly as they were. There's no emergent gameplay - how well or quickly you moved the traffic then rolls over into the next scenario.

They really can't compete with Run 8 on gameplay, though obviously graphically TSW is much superior. But can you imagine a TSW route set up with gameplay like Run 8 where you are handed a Subdivision of the railroad, given the freedom to serve industries that load and unload in real time, make up and run locals, form the completed traffic into outgoing manifests, all the time while Intermodals and Amtrak fires periodically across the main.

While I don't think DTG should plagiarise Run 8 play by play, it's maybe a direction they ought to be looking in. Maybe something like a short line railroad you can operate as you wish.

 

Imagine if TSW and Run8 met and had a baby, and then the scenario builders in TSC came over and raised it - what a game that would be!

 

I think what also should be mentioned is that some (!) of the freight gameplay is just plain dead boring.
Being one of the devilish console users I remember my last run on CJP when my xbox went into energy saving mode after 45 minutes without any input - just crawling uphill on notch 8 and doing absolutely nothing.
Being devilish again, but you don't have that experience with a one-handled EMU - on a typical run with one there is much more input needed.
I hate to say this but this really is a turn off, tiring, and none of a challenge at all - because you simply have nothing to do!
On german freight this isn't as much of a problem due to more speed limit changes and PZB action, although SKA and Kassel-Würzburg tended to be quite similar sometimes as well...
And I think this gameplay element should not be underestimated.
For freight to be successful as a standalone product there have to be some more gameplay elements to be thought of, because otherwise it's just not enough to do.

 

One of the reasons I'm currently taking a run around Florida in Run 8. Outside the yard areas and Downtown Orlando the running is quite fast, up to 70 MPH with a train of autoracks I'm taking up from Baldwin to Waycross then on towards the Fitz. So there's no endless uphill grinds or crawling downhill with dynamics wondering if the train will run away. Not to say there aren't gradients or curvature - to my surprise Florida has both in good measure. The Fitzgerald Sub also has something of a sawtooth profile so quite easy to break a knuckle if you don't manage the in train forces. Maybe DTG Matt it's worth looking at Florida or similar to get away from the sterotypical desert or mountainous routes with 2.0% gradients.

 

Being a member of these forums from the begining and an avid fan of both TSC and TSW - I have come to the conclusion that no matter what is accomplished by DTG - it will never be enough. I am not saying there aren't any problems, obviously there is room for improvement in many areas.

I do look forward to the day when US Freight once again is being produced by DTG

 

I think your experience is partly explained by TSW US freight runs being pretty boring designs in all honesty, at least the run you referred to, though more on that later, certainly on level ground. Driving just from A to B is not very exciting, even in a fast passenger service. But if you could play TSC you would see really exciting freight scenarios where you have to first form your train by going to various sidings and assembling the wagons which might be anywhere in the yard, then you might drop of some of it at roadside industries on the route. Once you reach the end you will again cut and drop your freight at various spurs and sidings. This is a lot of fun. Though again a TSC freight route like the recent Feather Canyon enhanced is 130 miles long, TSW ones are too short limiting the options.
But even with a plain linear A to B run, I find if you have a heavy train and a decent incline or decline, how are you able to just leave the speed setting in one notch all the time?
Personally I can't play an Azuma, ICE or Acela scenario more than one at a time, because I find them boring.

 

At least currently on paper, San Bernardino is going in the correct direction from an operational standpoint, with local switching moves, proper train symbols, industrial sidings filled with cars, and what not. Still need to work on the uniform manifests though (Something I heard will be addressed for MBTA Worchester)

Not to mention playing with the BNSF SD40-2 with the incorrect number ranges (Something I wish I knew how to fix on PC)

 

Weren't you mentioning Run 8 has some sort of industry management included as well? Something like that would help TSW as well... to maybe feel like some sort of sense why you're driving that train - more than APs, medals and so on.

I did some shunting on SPG and CJP recently which I found quite entertaining.
But yes, those kind of experiences are definetely missing in TSW (I remember some of the MSTS era, quite cool). Surely not easy to implement esp. in timetable mode but I wish reality could get bent a bit in favor of gameplay here.
I personally enjoy high speed runs more, because there is still at least a bit left to do and there is... speeeeeed (but yes, only one or two at a time)

 

Yes it's fairly simple with no animated loading, but various spurs and sections of track are designated as serving an industry. You drop cars there which are loaded or unloaded in real time then return later to pick them up.

 

I love switching, but the long distance side of freight can be pretty boring. Throw me in a yard cutting consists and I'll have a great time merrily going back and forth, moving assorted different wagons into different sidings. I would pay good money for a route that was solely a huge freight yard, with AI trains dropping off and picking up wagons that I am tasked with sorting.

I must admit to being worried that the example freight service they showed on San Bernadino last night was just a jump in the cab and take this already built train along the track. I can already drive along that track in a fast passenger loco, with engaging stops at stations along the way, just driving the length of a route with nothing to do but watch the scenery isn't fun for me.

If there is genuine switching on a route then please show it off in future, even a pre-recorded timelapse video would work better than driving a freight loco a few miles and then moving on because it doesn't make for good viewing.

 

It seems San Bernardino Line will be much better than AVL if it is about freight. We will get longer trains and much more freight variety (mainline + yard work).

 

There shouldn't be too much mainline running on this route, the Kaiser Hauler from Kaiser Yard to/from Barstow should be the only playable mainline trains on SBL.

Though it should also add in stabling/switching that train in Kaiser yard.

 

Hello Matt,

I think San Bernardino Line is a step in the right direction if it is about American Railroading. We will have freight and passenger action. And a lot of variety of freight stock and freight action.

What do you think, when you will hit US freight to 100 % to make new US freight routes and new stuff like SD70Ace-T4, ET44AC, SD70M, SD70MAC and so on?

 

I appreciate the feedback. I’m going to try to make a Timelapse video to show a shunting service. Just need get approval first. Will try to get something out early in the week. Rest assured you have plenty of shunting services. Blacknred81 I took your feedback on making sure I say”You P next time.lol

 

Kind of funny when I google most of the numbers on TSW SD40-2 for BNSF those numbers are actually assigned to ES44C4s now. Ironic because we have the C4 in game but only a small number range.

But now many actual SD40-2 does BNSF even have anymore? There might not be many numbers to go around accurately.

Either way it’s a relatively minor gripe, I’m happy to have it on SBD. I always loved the freight on Caltrain with the passenger trains zipping by.

 

Probably still a bit, they are frequently used as heavy yard switchers, based on a PDF put out by Trains Magazine in 2022. BNSF still has about 409 units, mixed in with some SD39's. The SD40-2R's on their roster are rebuilt SD45-2s.


BNSF #1821 working the Barstow Hump earlier this year.

 

Oh so there’s more than enough to go around in game.

In that case it would be nice if they fixed that, seems like it would be a very simple thing to correct.

 

I must admit I haven't read a lot of negative posting about the MP36. Maybe I'm reading the wrong forum but it seems to me it's always been a popular loco starting with the Caltrain Baby Bullet version and then to the modified iteration for SBL.

As far as I can gather, any criticism of San Bernardino has not been about the locomotives.

 

I'm fine with using existing locos. There's plenty I like to drive as it is. New rails to use them on is fine.

 

The one thing really missing with freight in TSW is this "whole run" idea... doing the switching AND the driving together like other games do. Not just one or the other, over simplifying it.

 

After watching the San Bernadino stream yesterday. Im reconsidering my stance on San B since after seeing DTG trying at least to have more freight shunting ,i was surprised that there is a decent amount of freight services more than what i thought there would be definatly a step in right direction .. There just needs to be variety and balance of freight services in TSW going forward..hopefully we can get a nice variety of csx switching services in the up coming Boston MBTA route ..it s at least best to have passenger and freight variety to play until hopefully at some poin US freight can get another freight route and at least some new freight DLC similar to the Cargo paks they did for UK

 

Even if we cant have new freight routes for a while maybe DTG could look into adding shunting and yard work variety to some existing US freight and passenger routes add aggergate loading unloading similar to that on the peninsula corridor, there a stone loading facility unused on Antelope valley that could be brought to life with UP local freight services as well there other industry sidings that could be utilized for local freight switching place boxcars lumber cars tankers covered hoppers and pick ups etc..

 

as for motive power here in US ..I live 300 or so feet from a CSX main line that sees 12 to.18 freight trains every 24 hours i see 2 intermodal trains a day usually 3 to 4 freight trains in each direction a day somtimes extras or re routes in addition..usually 1to 2 loaded and empty coal trains a day add in grain trains as needed stone ethanol trains as required.. There are local freights in my area to north and south but none operate by my place ..the power i see every day is mostly GE ac44 s ET44ah ES44dc and AH SD70 macs that csx had recently rebuilt the new CM44s csx is getting a lot of now refubished former AC4400 and some older c40 8w s rebuilt with new cabs etc ..do see gp38 2 s gp40 2 and 3 s in transit on freights they used mostly on local freights csx also not afraid to use big Ge s on some locals also,,occasionally still will see sd40 2 or 3 s on maintenance of way services ..as well i see some forigen power Kcs UP Cn cp bnsf ns etc

 

US freight is boring and slow, so of course not many people will purchase it and as a result the devs have to focus on content that people will buy.

 

Problem is, you can't really do that on most "Mainline" runs that are popular. Most popular US routes are usually set in the vast remoteness of the mountains, where the only part you actually switch anything is in or near the yards (Or any local industry if it exists).

Also a crew of a mainline train wouldn't be in charge of the switching, that would be designated to another crew. Only exception would be if a yard crew also handled the local switching of industries for a train. Which is why they have to be separate services, not one.

Shortlines would add in some mixing of runs plus switching, but I don't think DTG can convince any of them to come aboard, especially since the majority owner of them is Genesee &Wyoming, which Matt has stated in the past are a no go for licensing.

 

As I put above, it depends on the area. Florida in Run 8 is anything but and sadly the myth of the grinding 25MPH 2.5% climb and descent has been perpetuated by the choice of routes in some of the sims based on scenic rather than operational appeal. Even in the west, you could do a route like the Sandpoint to Spokane Funnel, maybe set back a few years before the route had some realignment and double tracking, where speeds are up to 70 MPH with a constant procession of intermodals, manifests, grain trains and locals.

 

I feel this. I have thousands of hours in American Truck Simulator, I love the idea of long driving through beautiful scenery, I own most of the "old" US freight routes in TSW, but... they never really kept me interested for more than few runs. I'm not sure why, but the experience of playing is just not satisfying for some reason.

I understand that because of consoles we only have limited length of routes (although "empty" US could provide some reserves like KWG) which limits the selection of feasible routes and content of those routes...

Maybe you should prototype some non-standard gameplay variations, try out various twists and see if something turns out to be more interesting. Similar how conductor mode was played around.

What if the route was downscaled to 1:5? Would it play better? SCS's truck sims have downscaled world and it's most played game on Steam for ten years already. What about a large industrial complex (steelworks etc) where you could also operate the loading facilities and move the goods between various sidings? Maybe some constructions sites that require special operation procedures?

Or maybe alter the trains instead and provide some yard master tasks, go deeper into simulation of train hoses, brake tests, maybe some coordination with AI drivers doing shunting around you?

What about some more historical time periods? Fine, you don't want to do steam, but we have diesels for 70 years already. How did engineer operation look like in 1950s-1960s? Would it give you more to do?

 

I would like to see some additional freight cars to increase the variation in train formations, and to allow for some additional switching.
When you look at videos on YT you can see wagons from different manufacturers, with different door configurations; different tank wagon designs too..
I have never understood why the coil car dis-appeared from the game (it actually shows up as a picture on the wall in one of the recent videos). Saying it was linked to a specific version of the game seems odd. surely the base model must still exist, and can be updated to fit in with the later TSW versions.

 

Then you understand incorrectly, consoles do not in any way shape or form limit the length of routes, the routes are all tiles that load in as needed, a console doesn't care if a route contains 100 tiles or 100,000 tiles.

The limited length of routes is driven by DTG allocating a set amount of time and budget to develop each route, whatever they can do in 4 months gets done, if it will take longer than 4 months then it gets cut-off at whatever point they can do in 4 months.

 

Completely disagree with you.

 

See more US freight is boring and slow posts..it is what it is if running a train inTSW or any sim is boring then maybe you just dont like trains enough ..sorry but in real life thats how US freight trains are do ppl expect to scream down the line with a 100 plus car coal train at 100mph ..etc ..yes they do need to add more variety and types of services . Have a few A to B runs with picking up cars en route or making your trains up in the yards before you depart or put your train away as its called ,when you get to a terminating yard ..train crews have to do more than sit in their seats en route you got to look back on your train to make sure everthing good watch for signal indications , observe passing trains at meets or other tracks for any possible issues.. Communication via radio with dispatchers and other trains ,sound the horn ring bell for all crossings unless its a quiet zone area ..the person earlier that said their x box went into sleep energy saver mode for inactivity ...i play tsw on x box ive never had it happen just dont sit there and do nothing ...blow the horn for crossing s even if a dirt road use camera to look around your train ring bell it will keep things going .

 

If anyone wants a button to press on long freight runs you can enable the alerter on some locomotives.

Long a to b runs are a bit bland yeah. What i like to do is screw with the dispatcher and spawn in some locos then collect various freight from yards along the route!
You don't have to stick with dtgs mindless a to b runs.

There's plenty to do. Just gotta get creative.

 

here is some thing i do in TSW to make playing a bit more engaging for me ,instead of lining switches in the map go and line your switches on foot like a real life freight conductor would have to do..in real life the conductor on a freight or local switch run has to climb up and down of the engine ride the side of freight cars guide the engineer via radio or hand signals, i also do camera mode when do switching in tsw i position it by rear car as if im the conductor riding the rear car while shoving back to make a couple while still operating the engine then i can see better when i need to slow to make couples..i also find it more engaging than using the map

 

It’s time for the Q&A session again. The hope and despair of freight transport to the United States have reached a new peak. Where are they?

 

I am sure you meant to say that US freight is slow and boring TO YOU which is fine, not everyone likes the same thing.

However, TSC has several North American freight routes made by DTG as well as several third party routes. Run8 has a loyal following and is almost exclusively freight. Its popularity is because of its realistic portrayal of not only the driving of the train, but the operations of freight operations.

I will go out on a limb and predict if DTG would build a route with lineside industries where one would have to plan local service run, build the consist with cars in proper order, do drops with proper spotting of the cars to the industries as well as pickups, then that route would sell well.

One of the drawbacks of TSW with respect to freight is timetable mode. Local services such as described vary on tasks and frequency and would be better suited to the scenario structure vice timetable. But not sure if a local run such as I described could be run by AI if put into a timetable. In TSC there are many great freight and switching scenarios, both provided with the routes and even more in the workshop. I haven’t touched the scenario planner in TSW so not even sure if it has the capabilities of planning a local run with making a consist then make drop offs and pickups along the way.

But my main point is, if that capability exist in TSW and was utilized, US freight might not be found as boring as the OP stated.