The WCML South Not Good Enough thread has just been closed due to unsavoury comments. However, we still need a place to post feedback, so here is a new thread to do so. Please remain respectful to other users. Original Thread
I don’t think the original thread should have been closed. The unsavoury comments should have been deleted and those posting them should have been contacted directly to cease and desist.
This was the reason for the previous thread being locked: "Morning folks. I'm going to lock this thread as we've had numerous reports from multiple community members since it was posted. We encourage healthy discussion on our forums, regardless of whether it's positive about TSW or not but we don't allow any comments that break our forum rules. However, if you need a reminder or you haven't seen them, please refer to our forum rules." [Removed; inflammatory - DTGHarry]
Remember everyone to be respectful and don't say a bad word about the wcml line or this tread will suddenly need to end as well. One thing to ignore the problem, but to try and silence players, if players weren't annoyed before hand?
To be fair there was quite a bit of swearing and insults amongst the comments which probably led to the other threads demise. They were warned more then once... We've got this thread now, so let's try and keep profanity out of it. 3 days until early access, I'm anticipating peoples initial reviews. Part of me wants to be proven wrong on my previous statements but I feel "not much will change from the preview to the release" is not looking good. Unless the statement in the next day or two can bring some much needed reassurance.
There was more than one reason the original thread was closed and I think it just as much about silencing complaints about wcml than anything else, call a spade a spade and suddenly peolle are offended. Very disappointed and I thought more of DTG than that.
Agree the other thread should just have been tidied and infractions/punishment handed out as necessary. That said, there’s probably not much more to say until the reviewers and then the early access get first hand experience with the route. At which point informed decisions can be made.
Tbf I've always felt I can be completely honest in my feedback about DTG both as a company and about their output, both good and bad. That's to be applauded. They have a fine line to tread in policing these threads. Atm they are fairly open IMHO about what is permissible, and while on occasion it can deteriorate into unpleasantness, generally sufficient account is made of the differing capabilities and styles of communication. My own personal opinion is that a higher standard should be applied, but I appreciate that may also not be welcomed, and so I think they get it broadly right. Anyway, this is off topic, so maybe a separate thread is needed for that conversation.
I agree, I suspect the few people who have taken it upon themselves to police these forums and try and prevent any criticism of the company were the ones who complained to try and get the thread locked.
18 posts in and so far not a single one about the WCML, lets try to fix that... Other than potentially a couple of runs up and down in the 390, I have little interest in playing this line until at least the timetable is sorted. The lighting also needs a lot of work to be satisfactory. I don't really expect them to put much effort into improving the overall scenery, it's not going to turn into something as detailed as Suffragette, but this many years in to the franchise the minimum standard has to be 'this looks ok', ideally 'this looks great', but 'this looks rubbish' is not acceptable. Even then I will only even own the line if the Frankfurt route turns out to be worth my money - San Bernadino looks good, but if WCML was a seperate DLC rather than part of the cheaper per route annual package I would be waiting for a lot of fixes before purchase. I hope if a lot of people still buy the TSW5 package that DTG don't misinterpret it as meaning they don't need to fix WCML, although hopefully they will see that reflected in how little the route is likely to be played in comparison with routes delivered with a basic level of quality.
Hey folks. Just to reiterate my statement earlier, we are more than ok with people giving their opinion on TSW5 and it's add-ons, regardless of if those opinions are negative or not. The thread was closed due to repeated forum rule breaking despite JD's comment asking users to be respectful towards others. Rules that were broken, that I'll highlight for this thread to bear in mind going forward, are below: No hate speech/bullying. No inappropriate remarks towards other users or Dovetail staff and partners. Do not abuse the report tool.
Going back to the WCML, my personal aim is to watch a YouTuber I trust who has made videos in the past that aren't just all looking through rose tinted spectacles continuously but they have called out problems. That way I will pick up on things that I might not first notice just by watching. So little hints if you like. My preferred options also praise the route if it's good enough, such as Suffragette Line being very short but generally looking very good despite that. But at the same time call out things that are obviously wrong and need fixing. I want an unbiased opinion one way or the other that's all. I would be very wary of somebody who commented on that DD direct stream we all watched horrified as if there was nothing wrong with it for example. Such YouTubers exist.
I think it's worth pointing out the need to develop some internal filters of what matters to you personally as well. I've found in the past that I've formed negative views of a product through perusing forums or having bugs or omissions pointed out in videos that I otherwise would likely never have noticed. Now when I hear a complaint, I ask myself consciously if this is something that matters to me. I've found it helpful in avoiding group think trends and preserving my own enjoyment of a gaming product. Likewise i know a deal breaker for me isn't necessarily one for everyone. That's why I'm sceptical of youtubers publishing their own views instead of sticking to a more informative tone, and why I appreciate those that do.
I don't think they thought it would have got as far as 26 pages, in a very short space of time I might add. But again controlling the narrative.
It is a bit yes and no. I agree with what you are say 100%, but I am no expert on graphical issues or techical problems, so I welcome players telling me and DTG about things as well, it helps make the game better. Players give their opinion of which I am thankful for, but then it is down to the individual to make up their own mind, if that makes sense, if you don't want to know the faults then don't read stuff on a forum, spoiler alert? Players give out about steam trains in TSW, they know more than me, but for me the steam trains are fine.
Yeah, it is always great to get on and complain about something going wrong, but it is equally important to be point out good things as well. I was over the moon when I heard all the new stuff coming out and a free update for players, my hopes got dashed with wcml, but there we go.
you're not a part of some grand conspiracy lmao. ya'll were just slinging insults for the last 10 pages. Rarely saw any constructive criticism. Even in this new thread we are just throwing stuff at eachother again. If anything ya'll have done the most censoring of this topic by filling the threads with useless arguments. Can we get back on topic now?
I bought TSW4 as a preorder deluxe edition despite having doubts that the ECML was starting and ending at the wrong places. After driving my Azuma, which was nicely done, up and down that line a few times I began to wonder whether my excitement, largely brought on by certain YouTubers, was really worth it. Antelope Valley was ok but not jaw dropping, I don't even recall the third route, Austria I think. I felt a bit miffed that I was forced to buy it, ok I could have gone basic instead. But the highlight of the year for me were the Blackpool and Suffragette releases which were awesome imo. This year I wanted the WCML, until that stream released and the faults are really obvious, they can't be hidden under the "personal opinion banner" this time. So I decided to take advantage of the excellent free upgrade, thank you DTG, and await for the patches to flow and make that route what it should have been. This year I think will be a good year for dlc's, some nice ones lined up; Shap, Netherlands and Japan especially, plus the 2nd US route. Glad I can purchase these without needing a paid upgrade for essentially the same game with a few fairly minor bells and whistles.
It is always a better policy to hang on to your money and let DTG do the running around, because once you hand over the money...have you met my friend the long finger and it will be put on that and it will cheapen the experience for you.
Yeah the removal of the paywall has been a very positive step. Let's hope it becomes more permanent than just the present 30 day window!
I'll drink to that! I think it will be hard for DTG to go back to the paid model again in all honesty. It should be extended if anything. Probably if they were to revert back to the same bad old ways again then I will probably call time on the whole franchise. I've got a gazillion scenarios and timetables to drive on both TSW and TSC. In addition my hd cannot take much more TSW content without having to remove other games, some of which are more important to me in all honesty.
I'm hoping going forward this will be a tough lesson learnt for DTG never to repeat the same mistakes... We've had some really good quality routes come out, and the highlight of the year for me was the GOBLIN route, which really set the standard as to how all routes should be hitting at a minimum. (Also people argue that "thats a smaller route and easier to spend more time detailing", and I just don't buy it, that should be the standard across all routes regardless of length). Those of us with any eye for detail can see the WCML looks as if it has been outsourced and not the usual DTG standard we've come to expect. For all ECMLs minor faults, I really enjoyed it from day one, so WCML feels like a massive step back in the franchise. I don't want this to be a Rivet echochamber, but a standard level of quality control needs to be implemented across all routes. Fife Circle was a disaster, and now WCML. And I suspect that it is no coincidence the routes feel the same, the scenery and timetable are a shambles... But, DTG have got to take the brunt of this as they've commissioned the route regardless (speculation here) of if it has been outsourced to a certain developer with questionable standards of work. We can only hope if the speculation of the outsourced developer is the case, that DTG immediately take this project in-house and develop the route and bring any updates from their own development team to bring it upto the standards it should of been from the start. Anyway I'm waiting until the statement and previews now to make anymore comments as it has been fiercely debated to death and there is nothing said that hasn't been said already.
I was going to preorder deluxe but, since before the preview, I have decided to see how WCML South comes across 'in the wild', on a variety of channels, and what DTG say about their perceptions of the issues and how they plan to tackle them. As locobilly was saying, after my initial excitement about Vorarlberg (we're all different!) and ECML in TSW4, I never play the former and rarely play the latter unless I fancy a thrash. I know my approach to these things might be different from some of yours but I just don't see the point (for me) of getting too swept away on a wave of negativity - or, equally, positivity - without seeing more of what I might be spending my money on.
Sounds like a wise decision. I too have been guilty of getting carried away on the wave of excitement that can exist at such times. Now I've decided not to buy anything first day anymore but rather to wait to see how it's received by the masses, and what patches are coming. It's self control at the end of the day. I do enjoy the game a lot and find it very relaxing, but at the same time I like to see a finished product. There is an argument for saying the flagship routes coming with a new numeral game ought to receive more development time and polish. Perhaps DTG could have considered allocating 6 months to a small but competent team to produce WCML? Then perhaps it could have terminated at Rugby to give Pendo drivers a fair crack at the route. Surely if they had done that the number of day one sales would have easily compensated them and word would have got out that this was a really professional operation. Instead we have threads like this.
I hope the route improves. Timetable needs immediate fixes aswell as adding more car markers to all stations. rest of the criticism im not well versed on
Really? How about London after dark looking like the blitz period with total blackout, poor lighting in tunnels and at Euston, illuminated cars at night all looking different, the 15 minute timetable for LO 710's being relegated to one train every 90 minutes and lots of services missing generally, all 350 consists only being 4 cars, missing catenaries, no suspension on the 350 despite earlier promises that all TSW5 trains would have it, PIS faults, the late withdrawal of licensing for the 350 - not solely DTG's fault, but perhaps they should have got it in writing first. I presumed as you commented on the thread you had read it all?
I will have some feedback during early access. As for the other mess, everyone has a right to voice thier opinions, just don't start throwing insults at eachother. In this day and age it's not acceptable.
I fully agree with TrainSimSociety (Pixelade)'s YT feedback. In year eight, TSW still looks like total amateur work, beginning with the awkward logo and UI itself. The WCML snippet to MK, highly sterile representation, terribly lit, cannot seriously be called a "flagship route". From what I've seen, it has too many issues to be attractive, and made me cancel the preorder. Again, it's back for me to my eternal love TSC for a very satisfying experience using all stock I could ever wish for. We live in hope (that the issues will be addressed) - not me. You want my cash - convince me and do better. Work with JetWash . I'll return to TSW when JT release their Shap route, being tired of all that anti progressive DTG, Rivet and Skyhook drama. (And San Bernardino is way more interesting in the Run8 network.)
This isn’t really WCML related, but I think the Frankfurt stream has a lot riding on it now. WCML was a poor show for reasons already discussed & San Bernardino wasn’t great either, personally I don’t expect any game in 2024 to have cars floating above a road, rather than being on it. Especially in a scenario where the highway is a highlight of the content. The track pop in is a whole other issue that just writes off the route for me. So far there has been an obvious & overwhelming lack of QA. Yes with any simulation you’re going to get the pedantic users who will spot flaws that casual users would never realise, but when you have stuff like missing OLE, floating cars, low quality textures, unbaked lighting areas etc - you have to ask why that stuff is being ignored. Thats before you get into any of the simulation side of things, a category which raises the attention to detail bar even higher. Some of the things I’ve seen in these previews are more representative of an Aerosoft product & certainly aren’t a culmination of everything DTG has learnt over 6 releases of TSW. Personally I think the conversations we should be having are about how TSW content is going to be taken to the next level, with longer routes, more destinations within a DLC, better graphical performance & deepened simulation. But no, instead we need to rehash things like PIS showing off world destinations & other elementary stuff that was improved years ago. The inconsistent quality in TSW is by far the worst thing about it. How is anything supposed to be improved when every new improvement or addition means a previous one is dropped? Dare I mention suspension? The thing we were promised with TSW4’s release, which has now had a limited & barely successful release a few weeks prior to TSW5. The thing DTG stated would be a standard feature for TSW5 trains going forward, then on the very first TSW5 rolling stock shown, we were told it won’t be there on release???
I’m assuming the announcement was filmed before they found the bug with the 350. And they were unable to edit it out.
It's best to wait for the release. I stopped watching the preview streams long ago. Clearly dtg showcase a work in progress in them.
I don’t buy the game or dlc when new, always being forced to wait until the price drops to something I can afford. That policy has actually stood me in good stead. There were quite a few routes that have proven substandard in release. I find that by the time I can afford them I actually get the best deal all round as not only has the price dropped but also all patches have been implemented, MML being a good example. So it’s a win win. I must be honest and say that that in its current state WCML looks scary. I can’t understand how they didn’t expect a backlash from that stream? I’ve also subscribed to TrainSimSociety on YouTube as he seems not afraid to speak up. Now I can get a true picture of each route first. Maybe the ambassadors have to sign a NDA before getting the benefits?
I wonder how long this thread will last for? At this point, anything regarding the WCML has a merry-go-around effect, the same people will be mentioning the same complaints until a few loyalists join the discussion and start challenging their narrative… And then, BAM! DTG-Harry coming in faster than super woman to shut this (BEEP) down!
To be fair, the previous thread got toxic (I reported one particular thread and I’m sure I’m not the only one). It had nothing to do with the topic which, as has been said, went 26 pages before it was closed.
Yeah, I’m surprised it lasted as long as it did. Users seem to up the beefing antics at the weekend since the mods are non present.
