This update from Rivet hardly brings a lot of hope: Off-route PIS not in the first patch (so probably never given their track record). No timetable improvements. They're happy with the night lighting Very much a "take it or leave it" vibe, guess the sales numbers will tell in the end.
Those timetable figures are really bloody abysmal, it really concerns me that this has been looked at multiple times by multiple people and still been signed off without issue. Once I found the scope of the route, only being to MK with a 350 and poxy 377, the only thing that kept me slightly interested were how busy the timetable would be for it, with the AI all around as you go along. Now that's down the drain there is no lure for me to buy the route and so TSW5. I will be doing the free upgrade on the PC and then out of curiosity will use the Gamepass to try this route out on the xbox without having to pay a penny (would have been paying the gamepass thing anyway).
Won’t cancel my preorder because the German route interests me a lot, but this will ultimately be the last time I preorder anything from DTG
Well as expected the update is there is no update and the stream was the final thing. I probably would’ve kept my deluxe pre-order all issues withstanding if there was a decent busy timetable (I love the business of London commuter) but sadly not even a commitment to look at it. Pre order cancelled.
I for one don't need to defend anything or any company, I pre-ordered the biggest version of TSW5, will play it plenty and bloody well enjoy it too, I have a brain in my head and a solid imagination so can easily loose myself in the route and feel immersed. As a side note if anyone does step in a defend this route, all you in here that have made up your minds that this offering is the devil and out to destroy your life, will never accept that they might actually enjoy it and most likely be called a fanboi or a DTG apologist, so why would anyone open themselves up to the trash talking that's going to just be chucked back at them. So to answer your question, yes nobody has come to defend the route, but it's still very defendable, so your phrasing to suit your narrative of it being the most evil thing Dovetail or Rivet have ever done is simply grade A insanity really......
DTG Matt DTG JD DTG Alex DTG Harry I really really hope you are hearing the feedback very loudly and very clearly. WCML is not good enough and will not be good enough given what you’ve put out so far. Why are you letting us down?
Ah can't be doing without your fix eh? Well you deserve everything coming your way then, and so does the franchise.
This. 100% agree with this, couldn't put it better myself.. if the WCML South cannot be done properly (which in this case, no matter how you try to dress it up or justify it, it is nowhere near good enough), then do something that is achievable. the timetable should always, and i mean always, be the absolute foundation of any and every single new route.. i'm genuinely just so shocked at how little has gone into this WCML timetable, and having DTG publicly say they aren't working on any improvements whatsoever, really speaks absolute volumes here
Not to worry they just proved what I said in my last message lol, they can't accept someone actually being able to enjoy it lol......
DTG Alex I’ve seen your Discord post but can’t find it to reply to. Thankyou for doing that, I think it was an important thing to do. I wholeheartedly agree, people should not use it as excuse to pile onto Rivet. This clearly isn’t where it should be, what’s important is that this is the last time this sort of thing happens. Whoever is in charge of project managing these releases really needs to step up and come up with processes that stop this ever reoccurring. Bravo for making the statement. Let’s now move forward with it.
Well, a post summing up valid criticism as the spawn of the devil lacks credibility in defence of the product, make of that what you will.
Confirming what we all already know. The important thing is it’s not a licence to go piling into individuals that work for them. Obviously something has gone awry here, it’s what happens now that’s important.
Yup, it’s not Rivets fault they do things the way they do, what we’ve seen is exactly what id expect of them. The blame here is with DTG for allowing it to get this far & then doing little to rectify the problem(s).
To be honest your post is the only one being slightly provoking to others sharing the opposite opinion to yours... Let's not turn this thread into arguments, people are welcome to make their own minds up. People are welcome to take an opposite stance. But people are equally allowed to debate that stance with each other without it getting blown out of proportion. Let's just be respectful with each other.
I appreciate the transparency, but most of the response was highly disappointing. This route seems to have a lot of smaller issues like missing neutral sections and 710 stop markers which feels like a step back from TSW 3 and 4. Additionally, losing the branding for the main operator on the route is a downgrade even if it was out of DTG's hands. Another concern raised in the response was about the conductor mode which doesn't work if you start it from inside the game as shown on the preview stream. The streaming crew did not seem to know this however and as it hasn't been fixed, I wonder if DTG even knew about it before hand. It worries me that such a major flaw in one of the big advertised features were not spotted earlier. The biggest disappointment however was the poor timetable which will not get any updates, at least not in the near future. I get that it takes time to work on a timetable, but it shouldn't really even be in this state to begin with. It lacks a lot of the extra services we have become accustomed to like railtours and RHTT works. The worst part of the timetable for me however is the lack of Overground services which would do a lot to make this route feel busier. The fact that DTG wants to improve the timetable but cannot promise it makes me feel like there might be something wrong with the route itself. As others have mentioned the NY-Trenton route also had a poor timetable on release and had reused parts of the scenery from an older route. I hope this isn't the case, but there are similarities between both situations which are hard to look past. At the end of the day I am looking forward to the release of TSW 5 and there are a lot of positive things coming in TSW 5, but this route's quality isn't one of them imo.
Honest of Alex (thank you), but it really just confirms what we all suspected anyway. WCML is not all bad, but Rivet need to get their finger out and (please) fix the OG timetable etc. Mediocre is definitely "not good enough" for TSW in 2024.
Speaking of Gen 8 the services still look really low in comparison to some other routes in earlier TSW games. I know it is expected and I should upgrade etc etc but as far as I can see there are only 2 trains and the additional Pendolino? That still seems ultra scaled back.
this is exactly what i've been saying.. having to discuss a poor timetable should never even be a thing by this stage in the game, it really should be good to go, right from the start, and as standard. i just cannot believe that not only is the timetable in the state that it is, but that DTG see no reason to even attempt to enhance or improve it. i have bought literally every single UK rouye DLC to date (even Rivet's Fife Circle against my better judgement), but this is just nowhere near good enough, it's just beyond frustrating we are even having this discussion, this should have been thought about and planned from the day one stage of deciding to create WCML south!
So there we have a confirmation, Rivet have been involved. That will fill in some of the blanks... With all due respect to Alex, I and many other have not been abusive or gone after individuals at Rivet, but only criticised them as a company. The comments on the threads regarding the WCML have only been stating factual stuff based on their (and my own) previous experiences with Rivet and their previous products. I have not seen a comment yet that has not been completely warranted. I just feel that a throw away comment taking aim at players frustration, can feel dismissive to some of the valid feelings and feedback for the abysmal work that has been shown in this upcoming add on, and rather then acknowledge a developers such a Rivets faults and problems, it actually feels quite dismissive to the player feedback regarding their work. I don't know if anything has been said behind the scenes to Rivet by DTG concerning the standard of their work, so I can't comment on that... but rather then going after the players for their completely valid criticism of Rivet publicly, why not actually acknowledge their poor standard of work and make improvements going forward? Accountability would go quite far in the current climate of things with Rivets involvement rather then accept their standard of work... I don't think that's much to ask for...
Yep, instantly knew it felt like Rivet had part to do with it. Ain't that bad when you know its a particular company who has done it... that just speaks a lot
Looks like Frankfurt-Fulda will be the last, best hope for keeping the preorder. The German routes are usually of a high quality so looking forward to tomorrow night's official stream.
So basically any unfinished timetable or bugs = rivet was involved and they were lazy? How come that argument applies suddenly for wcml south, but doesn't apply anywhere else? Dtg have also released unfinished timetables, but apparently based on your argument only rivet would make those mistakes and they automatically get the blame? Blaming rivet for literally all the problems is getting quite tedious to hear
Most of the original TSW content from the early days does was not entirely accurate... But most UK timetables since TSW3 seem to be very accurate. Not all the problems in TSW are Rivets fault, but all of Rivets content has been problematic.
right but why is rivet suddenly getting all the hate as if dtg didn't make the same mistakes before as well
The last two paragraphs of that discord post in particular were impressive, took courage, were from the heart and worth taking on board IMHO. They reflect well on Alex and on the value of honesty, the precursor of integrity. Its what was needed, again imho. Although I stand by every word of criticism, bravo. I hope that downbeat heads can rapidly reorientate to a review and a pathway out of this present situation, but likewise I hope that heads remain focused on what seeds were sown to result in such a lousy harvest.
Thanks CK95. While I respect Alex for finally being the one to come out and confirm the Rivet involvement I do think there needs to be a huge internal review at DTG into the whole process that led up to this. They know quite nicely the general concensus on the quality of RIvet's previous UK work and that their builders - again no offence - really aren't up to the task of making an AAA level route to accompany the annual reboot of the franchise. And where was the oversight from DTG at all stages of the project, knowing full well the risk they were taking? And I've got to be honest, if DTG really are in such a mess for UK route builders then they really need to start tailoring their internal expectations accordingly. Where did the builders go who made the Goblin Line or ECML last year? Far from perfect but, get them back, offer a pay rise or something. At the end of the day I can't really sit here having my heartstrings pulled and feeling sorry for anyone involved in the debacle. This is a professional company charging AAA prices for their game and content. And now that DTG have acknowledged WCMLS is not good enough, how about reducing the price of the route and all the packages to reflect that? Not too late to take £10 off the Standard or Deluxe pack or drop the starter pack with WCML to £20. That would show some real faith rather than distant promises of fixes to come and might persuade those of us no longer planning to buy before a heavily discounted sale to think otherwise.
I’m glad Alex has confirmed that - +1 for transparency. Would be interesting to know the scope of the involvement of each developer though. Personally, I am disappointed with various aspects of the route and can’t purchase until they’ve been improved. I only own DTG first party releases as far as I know, and have been really impressed with the quality as of late - ECML (post bug fixes and move to PS5) and LO in particular - but WCML just isn’t at the same standard. I hope they can salvage it, as I am keen on the kind of gameplay the route will provide with a Kings Cross to Peterborough type of express and stopper. I think continuing to outsource to companies that cause this level of frustration on the forums can’t be sustainable until they can produce at the same level of DTG and Skyhook.
Oh dear someone go out of the wrong side of bed this morning! Have fun with your 710 timetable after dark.
Because they're the ones still making the mistakes wrt the timetables (even leaving all the other issues aside) DTG seems to have learned that particular lesson, but Rivet still keep doing it and then have this attitude of, "oh, we didn't think anyone would notice/care". I won't speak for anyone else, but it puts me off.
Technically this is correct but if a roadmap comes along with little or no announcements of DLC in development, the forums explode.
Whoever thought it was the most smartest ideas to include rivet at all in the development of WCML is just a disgrace tbh. However they do Models very well and that is one thing I do like about Rivet but the only good thing about Rivet.
Yes, Alex is one of many lovely, hard-working people at DTG. It's important that complaints are kept constructive. It's also important to complain if you feel the product you've purchased is not good enough. I bought a new car three weeks ago, in which time it's been back to the dealer 3 times with brake issues. At all times I was polite and respectful but also assertive. The issue while really annoying (they admit it shouldn't have been sold in that condition) will be fixed without any name calling or personal attacks because that's how it works in real life. If WCML final release version is as full of errors and iffy-timetables as it initially appears, the more people who write constructive critical reviews the harder it will be for the concerns to be ignored. If your complaint is rude, then it will be ignored, so it's self-defeating.
If Rivet have had any major involvement with this, you already KNOW this is getting no further meaningful updates
Yeah look at the ambassadors who are getting it in the neck already and we havent even shown anything yet. Even though apparently people dont watch our streams, They still like to come in and moan about us any chane they get. Hentis
tbh my energy is wearing thin with this whole thing so I’m not going to dissect Alex’s message as a whole, but the whole people are feeling hurt thing isn’t really a warranted card to play. DTG knows how popular this route is, to hand it off to a Developer who has the worst reputation of any third parties for UK content is pretty egregious. WCML:S is the number 1 requested UK route for TSW. It is the Core route in the newest iteration of TSW. It is a combination of commuter, highspeed & central London business - all things DTG have gotten right before. This route had every right to be a culmination of all the things DTG has done & learnt to date - to go forward with it in this state is a massive shame. The devs who have worked on this shouldn’t exactly be proud, this is some of the sloppiest UK content from DTG we’ve seen in a long time.
You're forgetting the 4tph between Queen's Park and Stonebridge Park. Looking at the current LNWR timetable there are about 250-260 LNWR trains in total between Euston and MKC. Take into account that the 244 350 services includes depot services, and it seems there may be some 350 services missing - though it could depend on which real-life timetable the route's timetable is based on.
i do remember the attitude of Rivet on release of Fife Circle, saying how we as players/customers/however you want to call us have no idea how much goes into making a route.. which for the vast majority here is probably true, but wildly missing the point. we're not the ones creating the route, we're the ones paying £50+ for the route.. and the least we expect in return is a timetable that at least vaguely creates the busy feel of it's real life counterpart. Rivet aren't all bad, not by a long stretch, but it cannot be denied whatsoever that they are poor at creating UK timetables.. Fife Circle was (and still is despite a small update) the worst UK timetable offering in the whole franchise, and that was am exclusively Rivet development.
I won't buy TSW again has absolutely zero meaning, you are saying this to a company who is short sighted enough to bring out this hot mess? You think that warning to DTG is gonna mean a thing as you buy this years TSW. Now is the time fire the shots across the bow.
So I imagined the meaningful updates to both Glasgow Express and Fife Circle after many issues were raised upon release?
