Yes, Alex is one of many lovely, hard-working people at DTG. It's important that complaints are kept constructive. It's also important to complain if you feel the product you've purchased is not good enough. I bought a new car three weeks ago, in which time it's been back to the dealer 3 times with brake issues. At all times I was polite and respectful but also assertive. The issue while really annoying (they admit it shouldn't have been sold in that condition) will be fixed without any name calling or personal attacks because that's how it works in real life. If WCML final release version is as full of errors and iffy-timetables as it initially appears, the more people who write constructive critical reviews the harder it will be for the concerns to be ignored. If your complaint is rude, then it will be ignored, so it's self-defeating.
If Rivet have had any major involvement with this, you already KNOW this is getting no further meaningful updates
Yeah look at the ambassadors who are getting it in the neck already and we havent even shown anything yet. Even though apparently people dont watch our streams, They still like to come in and moan about us any chane they get. Hentis
tbh my energy is wearing thin with this whole thing so I’m not going to dissect Alex’s message as a whole, but the whole people are feeling hurt thing isn’t really a warranted card to play. DTG knows how popular this route is, to hand it off to a Developer who has the worst reputation of any third parties for UK content is pretty egregious. WCML:S is the number 1 requested UK route for TSW. It is the Core route in the newest iteration of TSW. It is a combination of commuter, highspeed & central London business - all things DTG have gotten right before. This route had every right to be a culmination of all the things DTG has done & learnt to date - to go forward with it in this state is a massive shame. The devs who have worked on this shouldn’t exactly be proud, this is some of the sloppiest UK content from DTG we’ve seen in a long time.
You're forgetting the 4tph between Queen's Park and Stonebridge Park. Looking at the current LNWR timetable there are about 250-260 LNWR trains in total between Euston and MKC. Take into account that the 244 350 services includes depot services, and it seems there may be some 350 services missing - though it could depend on which real-life timetable the route's timetable is based on.
i do remember the attitude of Rivet on release of Fife Circle, saying how we as players/customers/however you want to call us have no idea how much goes into making a route.. which for the vast majority here is probably true, but wildly missing the point. we're not the ones creating the route, we're the ones paying £50+ for the route.. and the least we expect in return is a timetable that at least vaguely creates the busy feel of it's real life counterpart. Rivet aren't all bad, not by a long stretch, but it cannot be denied whatsoever that they are poor at creating UK timetables.. Fife Circle was (and still is despite a small update) the worst UK timetable offering in the whole franchise, and that was am exclusively Rivet development.
I won't buy TSW again has absolutely zero meaning, you are saying this to a company who is short sighted enough to bring out this hot mess? You think that warning to DTG is gonna mean a thing as you buy this years TSW. Now is the time fire the shots across the bow.
So I imagined the meaningful updates to both Glasgow Express and Fife Circle after many issues were raised upon release?
With the confirmation Rivet were involved in the WCML's development. Some serious enquiries needs to be made onto how did DTG as well allow the developer to be sourced for such a critical UK route in what could've even my opinion and others been one of the best routes in the game since SEHS and BML. For now the route to only be left half-baked than it's potential, starting to resemble NYT now. It's been well clear from feedback and developments, Rivet games has a reputation on poor product quality to only allow work to be sourced for one of probably the most critical UK route to a developer. I'm sure someone with a functioning brain will know not to source work to them?
So we have a ‘maybe we’ll fix the timetable but probably not’, no fix for the lack of neutral sections (even though these have been done in the past and have even been implemented into TSC routes before), ‘It’s dark and we like it so go away’, and absolutely no acknowledgment of the short 350 consists. I wonder if DTG took a leaf out of Bungies book, “never over deliver otherwise your fans will have actual expectations for a quality product”. Edit: If I remember correctly on 3rd rail routes even gapping is modelled, I know the 72 stocks lights go out on gaps and there is a sound/acceleration change over 3rd rail gaps and now DTG are saying well neutral sections don’t matter because trains deal with it on their own.
Dovetail Direct 2025. Alex pulls out a ticket for a new upcoming route. WCMLS Remaster by Liam and Joe. It'd be almost laughable if it wasn't likely to be true. I suppose it also explains why the Leven Branch update seems to not moved very far, if they've been doing WCMLS. I'm guessing the Skyhook Scotrail 158 was meant to be released alongside that considering they've done a timetable for it and everything.
Glasgow had one indeed, but Fife hasn't had a meaningful update yet, it had a couple of services added. We're still waiting on it with the Leven Branch and new timetable, and hopefully some scenery improvements.
The huge backlash I feel is because time and time again, that the constructive feed back given to Rivet, on every route, on every add on, is completely and utterly ignored and dismissed. Not only do they read the hugely helpful and constructive feed back, but they ignore it. This then wears very thin with players, and comes out in massive rants and criticism like is evident in the WCML threads... and then I personally feel they bring out the small violin and find the feedback or criticism overly harsh? Well sort your work out in the first place... what sort of reaction is to be expected? Look, Rivet aside, DTG knows the poor quality work and issues and problems Rivet have had with their previous add ons, and yet they have commissioned them to build some/if not all of this? What does that tell us about quality control, or even listening to previous feedback of Rivets work and allowing them onto a flagship launch route? DTG are equally responsible so let's not just put the blame wholly on Rivet. I feel Alex coming out and in a way defending them (or feeling sorry for them) is a little kick in the teeth and not siding with the player who have made their feelings very clear. One thing, I hope is this is a harsh lesson, but I really hope in the long run DTG turn this round as they have potentially one of the best ever routes to be in the game in their hands... The ball is in their court to turn this round over the coming months and show us what they can do. We know from previous routes how good their own stuff can be, so the backlash is only because we are holding them to their own standards. This is going to be a lesson that will be learnt the hard way... I hope a situation like this doesn't occur again and actual feedback of developers is taken on board before trusting anyone with stuff like this. I'll just add for Alex, and for all of the DTG staff, I respect you as an individuals and as staff members. But, rather then think people are personally attacking developers just for the sake of it, please understand that it comes from a catalogue of previous problems that were never solved and now overlap into this one. Your decent staff here and this is nothing personal to you as individuals (I'm sure most forum members feel the same), just to make this clear.
Name a single improvement to E-G after release. The timetable is still lacking many services, the route itself looks like LOVE and the 385 is best played with the volume turned down.
Charging full price for a route in the state it's in is appalling the price should be dropped atleast
First of all, thank you to Alex for at least giving us an update and the promise of some fixes at least. Whatever Rivet’s involvement, I hope DTG take the route in house from now (it is marketed as a DTG route after all) and then there is a possibility it might not get abandoned after one patch. My biggest gripe is the Overground timetable. I understand that they want to prioritise the core route but 64 services is over, say, a 16 hour day at best 4 per hour i.e. 2 in each direction, better than every 90 minutes I suppose. At least the LUL services seem to be fuller. As for why they would trust Rivet despite their track record (no pun intended), in my opinion it comes down to the money men again. I suspect they put it out to tender and Rivet were the cheapest. This is what usually happens in most organisations and Government Departments (I speak from experience).
If there was a commitment to look at the timetable I would definitely keep my pre-order in place. Now I am not so sure. I might just go for the German route assuming it is decent and then buy the Flix Train. I will sleep on it. I can live with the other issues and I don't think the route looked bad, but the timetable is not good enough really.
I have just managed to look through the very long list of improvements required from some of the feedback players have given regarding wcml from JUST watching a live stream. Now imagine what players will find if they get their hands on it? How did a product this bad get as far as it has AND DTG ARE STILL GOING TO LAUNCH IT? Fine making mistakes and getting it wrong, but to delibrately launch the game in that condition knowing and admitting the problems is an absolute cash grab, nothing more!!! If players preorder or buy TSW5 wcml in this condition, then players are just as much at fault as DTG is because they are adding to the problem by backing DTG for doing this.
Alex can't really slag off DTG partners in his professional capacity, but he has at least had the grace to show some honesty on Discord which is most appreciated. I do however agree that players should not be blamed for ranting, most of the complaining has been constructive and we're the ones expected to part with our money. I would say take it on the chest, listen to your customers, and stop stepping on the same rakes over and over again.
No expert here, but the 390 services would surely only be the ones that call at Milton Keynes, and not all the ai ones.
Yeah nope, DTG are doing their cash grab, so that ain't happening, that is why we got this hot mess in the first place.
Yeah I understand and respect that. I think I've got everything off of my chest now, and I can't add anymore to the thread unless more developments come up... Some long winded posts by myself, but I think I've now said everything from my behalf and made my feelings very clear!
I know you only wanted a "single improvement" but I prefer to over-deliver. And a word about the surly nature of your response to me, do it again and I'm reporting you. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...h-edinburgh-glasgow-post-release-patch.65698/
I think it was becoming pretty obvious that Rivet had a hand in development. Whilst that confirmation from DTG is welcome and it’s never okay to hurl personal insults, Rivet has only lived up to expectations. Low as those expectations have always been. I certainly hope DTG takes this route back in house and I certainly hope they don’t ask Rivet to ever do another ‘DTG’ route. If DTG cannot make a route themselves, they should wait until they can or just don’t make it.
Funnily enough I was musing similar thoughts while having a very enjoyable half hour on SimRail followed by an equally sublime dusk drive on Surselva in TSC. We have only really seen a fraction of what could potentially have been stuffed up and in one direction only. Something certainly needs to be conceded financially by DTG to its customers IMHO, as I said earlier £10 off every bundle or bundle it free with the starter pack and drop the other packs by £20. Pink Floyd pig flown overheard on that one, but it’s the kind of gesture that might restore some faith in the product and company.
I really don’t think DTG should have ambassadors. They’re perfectly capable of showing a route themselves. I never ever trust those ‘paid’ to show off a product. Independent reviews are always the most honest no matter how many protestations are made by those being paid.
It would seem DTG really doesn’t care whether people by TSW or not. Especially when they more or less, if not outright, say this on streams.
So people who comment about the the issues of this route think that it is going to ruin their lives? Who has called Dovetail or Rivet evil? I haven't seen those comments. If you think the product is great, then that's fine. The people who provide feedback do so because they want this route to be the best it can be. Apparently this is one of the most requested british routes in the game but it has it's issues from lightning, scenery and an incomplete timetable. DTG advertise this game as an authentic simulator and hyped this route and timetable only for this route to not have a realistic timetable. TSW has been out for 7 years and this should not have these problems still especially at these prices. The criticisms are justified People who provide feedback do more to try to get the game improved then those who turn a blind eye to obvious issues or those don't have a problem with a product. If people didn't complain or offer feedback, the game won't get better which frankly is a win-win for both sides
I very much doubt that any discount other than those already mentioned for pre-orders will be forthcoming. The only way the community can effect change is to hit them where it hurts…in the financials! I will not be buying this in its current state at that asking price. Who’s with me?
Question for JetWash please….are you looking at working your magic with your mod on this route sometime?
Just to add, seeing as I’ve said I will never buy another Rivet route, I will not be buying the Deluxe or Special versions of TSW 5 whilst WCML remains bundled. The ‘improvements’ announced by DTG go nowhere near enough to make the route appealing. DTG only has themselves to blame for this mess. Whoever thought that delegating this route to Rivet was a good idea dropped the ball big time. I also think it was kind of shady and deceitful not to disclose this fact to us upfront.
I’ll include it my lighting mod yes. Beyond that I can’t say for sure, but I suspect there’s going to be a collaboration mod for it and likely a timetable.
Do DTG seriously think the route is in an acceptable state for release? For a flagship project it’s utterly ridiculous to have so many issues that have been addressed countless times before. I don’t think Rivet should have any blame for this but at all if I’m honest, this is a DTG route and its entirety down to them to ensure a standard is met. It was discussed a long time ago about having a standard features list that would apply to all DLC’s. I assume that didn’t happen? The other issue is that Rivet have a recent release in desperate need for fixes/improvements & have offered nothing in way of updates on progress. It now seems that a large part of that could be because they were working on another project on DTGs ask. Have to say it’s rather disappointing and a bit of an insult to loyal customers.
Most of those improvements are cosmetic at best and fail to adress the major issues with the route. The Class 385 sounds are completely inaccurate. There is no flange noise when going through curbs. There is the issue of wind noise in the cab of the 385 and thus having to close one of the doors in the cab to reduce the noise which is completely unrealistic. The Class 385 key is too large. You have passengers that don't get off the train at the terminal station. Announcements play the wrong destination when doing a return service. I also believe that there are missing services as well and that doesn't even include many of the issues with the scenery on this route especially the awful distant scenery. Rivet don't make substantial improvements to their routes. They may release a patch or two and the product is usually abandoned which is why they are often regarded as the worst third party developer in TSW. They did this to themselves. The fact that WCML was partly developed by Rivet despite their history of mostly poor quality content definitely explains the issues with this route. Rivet is great at modeling trains, but other than that, most of their products just have issues that go unresolved. They shouldn't have been tasked with making this route and why DTG allowed them to do so is anyone's guess. This is at the end of the day a DTG product. The fact that this was approved for release is rather unfortunate. When you think DTG take two steps forward, they take 5 steps back. Had TSW 5 not been on gamepass, I wouldn’t have purchased this route.
Rivet getting involved isn't all bad. They have helped dtg several times in the past such as helping with the scenery on cathcart and more. Working with other devs happen all the time and sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not so good
Don't mistake a kind gesture with nothing more than a marketing ploy to get players to buy an unfinished product. That might I add needs a list longer than my arm to fix and we havent even got it yet?
Interestingly their timetable also gives train lengths, I count 5 trains per day leaving Euston as a 4 car set, 4 leaving as a 12 car set and everything else is 8 cars and the same for Euston arrivals. And that timetable isnt even all of LNWRs services with them having another timetable for Euston - Crewe, Euston - Northampton and Euston - Tring.
But with Rivet's poor reputation and given the quality of their previous content, it doesn't make much sense for DTG to allow Rivet to work on a complex route such as this. It's not a case of "sometimes it's good and sometimes it's bad" Cathart is not a complex route compared to this and they have a history of releasing poor quality addons. Frankly, they shouldn't have had involvement with this route given the state of this route
I wouldn't touch it pal. Teach them a lesson. Why should you do the hard work? Why should anyone in the TSC do it? Don't improve timetables, don't add clutter and don't fix the lighting. Anyone who buys it on PC has it as is like the console crew. Honestly people need to stand firm for the good of the game moving forward.
DTG should be capable of showing a route but tend to skip over a lot of bits, mainly most of the questions asked in the q&a thread, explaining why the timetable is so lacking. Is it because of technical constraints? Design? If by design, improve it. Why did they not say how gen8 consoles would get an even worse timetable (as if it could get any worse) rather than hiding that as a footnote on the end of the recent announcement about the German route? Also loved the part on the stream where they clipped through the floor and had to use a hotkey to jump back into the cab before saying there is no equivalent hotkey on console. Hopefully console players never clip through the floor at Euston. At least we might see what the route is really like with some ambassadors streaming it.
Who knows how the bidding for this route went, in house or outsourced, even to overseas? Perhaps dear Rivet undercut DTG's own estimates and was awarded the contract? With Rivet's history of shoddy work, sloppy support and total abandonment, what would Focus Entertainment think of this decision?
I doubt Focus really cares to be honest as is the case with many publishers in this industry these days. They just care about the immediate earnings even if it means compromising quality to get it out the door
Frankly modders should make improvements. Modders often go above and beyond in both TSC and TSW and make DTG and Rivet who have more resources look like a bunch of amateurs sometimes. DTG are capable of doing great things but time and time again, they just keep underdelivering. Telling modders not to make improvements makes zero sense
Telling people to stop doing what they enjoy, for the benefit of other people, to suit your own crusade against the game is somewhat out of line, no?
How is it? I love jet wash and the communities work. But if they prop up poor work in the behalf of the studio, why would dtg have any incentive to improve if the community does it for free?
