Wcml South Feedback

Oh don't die please, we need you to do the beta testing.

 

This modern fad of multi million pound businesses hiding their failures beyond their "employees feelings" needs to end.
By being coerced into withholding legitimate criticism you're not "being kind", you're letting yourselves be emotionally manipulated while businesses, who don't care one iota about you beyond the contents of your wallet, laugh all the way to the bank.
Buying goods is a transaction, NOT a relationship - despite every game's social forum and "community" trying to pretend otherwise.

 

This, 100%. Worth quoting in full.

I am unhappy that some DLC is released incomplete or with bad traction sounds or lame timetables. And when something is released in a suboptimal condition, then yes, call it out, ask for better. Let's see what is released first shall we? Whenever DLC is released DTG open a thread for "Feedback" and at that point the stage is all yours. Just keep it to facts rather than attacks, yeah?

 

This is really off topic about WCML.
But I will answer it; you are over-reacting, this has nothing to do with unions more consumers rights. There is strong evidence that this product is broken. If your neighbour complained about his new lawn mower not working I bet you'd say "complain and take it back" wouldn't you? This is no different.
I don't believe anyone here has even said don't buy a product, the most that has been said is boycott rivet. re. their work on the WCML. We are all allowed under free speech to voice our opinions along those lines and encourage others to do the same, for the benefit of all, in others words to fight back against this shoddy product collectively.
Besides we are all adults not vulnerable people who cannot make up their own mind. You are behaving like the nanny state.

 

Yes agreed. Some posters appear to be trying to shame people into not making a purchase by trying to take some moral high ground. Frankly it's puerile behaviour.

I am not happy with the timetable, in fact very disappointed so am on the fence currently and will decide this evening.

However if I was ever minded to not buy something in a moment of camaraderie, comments like many on this thread would stop me.

 

Everyone on here could be said to be imposing their views on others it's a forum where people give their views. I don't feel anyone should be trying to persuade others how to spend their money, but carry on if you feel it is right, you might find it has the opposite affect. I didn't say we shouldn't come together to complain, I was referring to persuading to not purchase it which is what I thought you were aiming at, maybe I misread it. I started a thread on the timetable which seemed to die a death, that could have been used to drive the point home about the timetable, instead we ended up with a long laborious thread which got locked as inevitably disagreements ensued, which I am guilty of too. Divisive comments are never going to be a driver for change

Some of the comments on this thread alone (not yours as you are always reasonable) would not persuade me to join in in any boycott. You might find some will end up pushing back against it.

I don't lean towards DTG. When something bothers me I complain, when something doesn't, I don't. Overall I enjoy TSW despite it's faults and am a glass half full person. However operations and timetables not being realistically portrayed are the issues there bother me most. Sounds are another. I can live with a bit of shonky lighting. We all have things which bother us differently.

I am not behaving like the nanny state, that is something in real life I'm very against. Trying to rail others into doing as you wish could also be considered to imposing a nanny state attitude.

 

Sorry but now you are just on your soapbox inventing things to suit your agenda. Nobody has degenerated anybody passively or otherwise. What has actually happened is many of us have voiced our collective opinions about a broken product that had it been physical would have been returned to the shop. I think the strongest thing that has been said is "boycott rivet". Nobody has said don't buy DTG products. We are perfectly in our rights to say things like that as paying customers in an attempt to gain traction to enable this virtual mess to be fixed. Funny thing is that people like you will benefit too. I have higher standards about a product than you obviously.
Every argument on these two threads have been by people getting aggressive about others who have the right to complain and I don't really understand why when such an obviously poor product as WCML is being passed off as acceptable for a core route. So please don't invent sentences and statements to give try and give yourself the false moral high ground. There really is no problem. Adults will buy what they want.
Have a good day.

 

This thread's gonna be locked soon isn't it...

 

If people want to spend their hard earned money on mediocre content at best, that’s entirely up to them. I can’t pretend to understand it, but that’s life.

I know I’ll be keeping my money locked away until WCML is fixed. I’m not even going to buy it discounted in its current form because in my view, it’s just insulting to players to even release what they’ve shown us.

 

It better not be.

 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I respect that. I think the win win for everybody would be this potentially glorious route being given the priority treatment it deserves to fix it. I have no beef with DTG other than the fact that they have been caught out twice recently being too trusting and taking the flak as a result, both with rivet and LNWR licensing.
I haven't seen those other comments you refer to, could you direct them to me please. I hope everyone has been nice and respected the topic.

 

I hope not, just needs a bit of light moderation.

 

Just from the above conversation, my view here is that most people agree DTG have been on the up & up in terms of their content.

The issue (at least my issue) with DTG is that they made a very poor choice in who they have entrusted with this route. That issue has been further exasperated by DTG’s lacklustre response to making improvements. This route needs much more than minor tweaks and the timetable is a non-starter.

 

"That's word vomit but don't get me wrong I respect your opinion."

Good grief.

 

Buy our game, we will be your best friend. People sadly fall for this, businesses are just putting a face on their company to be more appealing to players, people get sucked in.

 

No one has told the organist or Fred or whoever DO NOT BUY TSW5, no one at all. All that's been suggested is that if you want things to improve moving forwards, financials is the only currency that the people in charge take notice of. If you just keep buying it regardless of content nothing will ever change because they frankly don't care.

I mean it's pretty basic innit? If you want to buy it, do it but don't expect things to change moving forward.

 

I really would like to get the route because I have held back from purchasing anything since March.

 

I agree I think they have dropped the ball with this route, which is a shame as their content has been very good in the past couple of years and this should be a flagship route.

I am not going to quote individual comments, partly as I'm on my phone, but comments suggesting people are only looking after their own interests and another I saw referring to people as mugs are clearly in my opinion trying to create a narrative. There have been comments suggesting people are letting the side down, it particularly started with the Fife Circle release. I am clearly not the only one who feels this.

Anyway I shall say no more as I don't want to see the thread locked.

 

Perhaps one way to look at it, is disregard WCML, treat it as a free bonus item and we are paying £54 for SBD, the German route and Flixtrain - at full price would be £72. More if you factor the 390 as a standalone.

And after a couple of evenings on and off in Run 8, where the idea of scenery is 2D trees and bushes alongside the track and little nut bare terrain beyond, it does put things in perspective. Even Rivet's interpretation of the WCML looks somewhat better.

So there are no absolutes in this and has to be a personal decision.

 

Yup, I’ll be watching the Frankfurt stream & going from there. Whilst I’m not overly into German routes atm (fatigue from the similarities of them all), there is certainly scope there for this to be something quite special.

SB is a full on write off for me so I’d remove that from any value calculation regardless of WCML issues.

WCML has the scope to be great & generally, when the criticism has been this loud previously (for DTG products) they have took significant action. The genuine only worry I’m having there is the ‘final’ stance DTG have on the timetable.

Ultimately how you work out which piece of content is worth how much within the bundle price is up to the individual, but I think it still remains cheaper than usual DLC costs.

I do feel it’s important though to make sure DTG are aware that what weve seen of TSW 5 is wholly unacceptable. They can do better than this.

They really need to sort out getting a thorough development checklist in place, along with addressing development timescales that are clearly too thin.

 

Spot on.

Buy it if you want to, don’t buy it if you don’t want to. I don’t know about anyone else but I’m just really tired of this circus. All I want is a route (and game frankly) that is up to the standard of previous content. As it’s a ‘new game’ it would also be nice to have some new features to go with it that aren’t half-arsed and not fully ready (track shadows, map labels, suspension (still!) and conductor mode fall straight into that category). Going back and forth about who will and who won’t buy is pointless.

I think it’s fair to say that the proportion of people who are fully content with what they’ve seen so far is very small. We need to be collectively making sure that DTG understand that this isn’t good enough, not bickering like children. Every time it feels like things have genuinely improved with TSW the ball gets dropped again. Time and again they say they are listening but I don’t think they ever hear to be honest. Rivet’s consistently poor standard of work reflects badly on DTG. Like it or not it is DTG’s (and Focus’) name on this product and it is them and the game that ultimately suffers.

I wish you could see that if this route had even hit the standards of ECML then no one would be sat here complaining. Clearly WCMLS in its current state is like a greatest hits of everything that has ever been wrong with the game. How that was ever allowed to happen mystifies me and at this point, if it were my company, whoever was responsible for the setting of unachievable deadlines, the lack of oversight and clear breakdown in communication would be relieved of their duties.

You have to ask, how many more times is this going to happen?

 

I know what you mean and listen you don't have to justify your decision to me, I just want players to be aware that TSW isnt finished, DTG are a long way from fixing it, DTG are on a money grab. The model DTG operate is they want your money while they try and patch a so called finished product and make the players wait.

 

Yeah I understand the situation at the moment, they are essentially releasing an unfinished product and will fix it later which isnt the point as it should be ready now, however I would like to claim the Deluxe edition before the 10% discount ends on the 17th Sept. I like this because it has the WCML, 390 and the German content which I am interested in and £54 isnt a bad price for it all. I could wait for a sale and buy the routes individually but that could take a while and im getting bored now and need something new to do on this game.

 

It is what it is. No matter how much we moan or abuse eachother, it's not gonna change the fact tsw5 is launching as is!
I've not cancelled my pre order. I will see for myself once it's downloaded. Probably on official launch day!

 

Just to think if this route was being released as a finished product that should of been in Mint condition this wouldn't be happening :/
So I respect everyone's opinions.
I am very excited still for tomorrow especially with WCML, I just hope the Scenery is appealing compared to ECML atrocious scenery. But For such a requested route it is shameful that it is being released in the state as it is.
Bored on TSW 4 now so I ain't refunding my pre-order. I trust DTG will come with improvements.

 

That's kind of where I am at, I buy all the routes and all the locos, how soon and for what price depends on previews, forum discussions etc. There is no such thing as a route that I'm not interested in playing, but how much I am willing to pay depends on quality above anything else.

Most routes I pick up a few months later in their first sale, typically 30% off and the most critical bugs are ironed out by then too. Had these all been released as seperate DLCs then I would have spent approx £51 on San Bernadino, Frankfurt and the Flixtrain, making the 390 a pocket change pick up at £3, I'll follow your lead and consider the WCML route itself free!

Of course that value perception depends entirely on the quality of tonight's Frankfurt stream, if it's also missing half the timetable and the lighting has been built to match drone footage rather than what the human eye would actually see, then the whole package will be waiting for a deep discount.

 

Overall it is good value. Hopefully this will be a NYT moment regarding the timetable.

 

The difference between NYT and WCMLS is a certain third party known for putting out sub-par quality and subsequently ignoring feedback was involved in the latter. Make of that what you will, but I personally will not be spending a penny on anything to do with this route until meaningful improvements are made, which I still doubt despite what DTG have said.

 

Doesn't mean they compiled the timetable and even if they did doesn't mean DTG can't amend it. I haven't made a decision either way yet. I will see what Frankfurt is like, San Bernardino looked decent although it's the sort of route I'd only normally buy in a sale.

 

The missing services and inconsistencies of the timings of intermediate stops are typically hallmarks of a Rivet timetable. Regardless, it appears that the timetable isn't even a priority for them anyway, DTG have said so.

 

I've been off the forums for a while till the past couple of days where I've been catching up on the soon to be released TSW5 and especially this route as I'm only interested in UK routes.

I see the poor timetable has been highlighted a number of times so out of interested when compared to other UK routes we already have, how busy should this route be and what would it's counterpart be (BML,etc...)?

I've watched the stream now and was surprised on how poor some of the areas were shown which has been highlighted quite significantly in this post so I won't dwell on that.

My gut was saying to pre-order however after the responses I've seen from DTG I'll be going for the starter pack and waiting to see if any improvements come.

 

There is absolutely no excuse for a cut down OG timetable, except perhaps for Gen 8/Series S. Just about any modern PC could deal with the full-fat traffic on the route, not sure about Gen 9 consoles mind you, but they probably could. In any case, no reason to penalise PC players with lacklustre timetables.

 

I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and should be allowed to express those opinions. What I detest are the calls to change mindsets or telling others what to do with respect to their buying decisions. State why you don’t like the product, make your purchasing decisions as you wish, but do not be condescending toward others that don’t follow your convictions. What you find “immersion” breaking might not be a factor in how another uses the “simulation” .

Statements such as “why people want to spend money on a mediocre product is beyond me” are not needed. It could be because they do not rate the product as mediocre. Finally remember Train simulation is a pastime people participate in for a pleasurable diversion from the rigors of everyday life. Let’s keep that in mind when posting in the forums.

 

Yup, just do a reduced one & a full one then let the player/hardware decide.

 

I’m fairly sure DTG and especially their employees do genuinely care about the game and want to create the best product they can and probably a lot of factors like deadlines, staff numbers etc all play their part in routes having to be rushed for release.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the decision to make TSW5 a free upgrade was directly a result of the incomplete state of WCML and seen as a way to soften the blow perhaps?

As others have mentioned the deluxe pre order deal is still pretty decent, even with the issues (clever DTG). Just have to hope they take the majority of this criticism seriously and keep working to improve it in the weeks post release.

 

I will be watching the Frankfurt stream intently this evening. If it matches with what I consider to be important in a sim I will buy the regional pack. If it falls below my expectations it will be the Free starter pack. I will not touch WCMLs until serious improvements have been made on all the points raised on the forum since it's Stream went live.
I have only been playing TSW since April this year, I have spent loads of money so far. This launch of TSW5 has left me wondering if I made a mistake investing so much. The mistake of DTG has been to release upon its loyal customers an unfinished product with the expectation we will all buy it whatever on a promise.

 

The Bakerloo timetable seems ok (ish).

The Overground timetable is by far the worst offender, with less than half of the IRL services being represented.

The 350 timetable is a little under but not so much that it’s really an issue (will expand on this below), however the majority of the services appeared to be 4 car which is completely incorrect as they are overwhelmingly 8 car consists, with only a couple being 4 or 12 car IRL. There are also things like the (if I’m remembering the stream right, it’s the Tring) services being all stop runs whereas in reality these are semi-fast.

The 390 again seems fine, however there was no clarification in the list Alex has provided as to what’s going on with AI. If AI was included in that then there’s a problem.

Now, the above all pertains to playable services, the route has a cataclysmic lack of AI going on. There are sizeable TMD & sidings on the run to Euston & they were all far too empty.

There is nothing in the way of rail tours which aren’t uncommon on this section of track, nothing coming over from the ROG37 which is a frequent visitor of the TMD’s on the line & no 08’s which again are almost always out & about. There is also no RHTT going on.

Im not a fan of the bending reality when it comes to adding diversions & fake railtours etc, but there is more than enough stock within TSW to flesh out this timetable & still keep it more realistic than other routes in the game.

 

WCMLs ""Class 66 – 38 Services""

As someone who generally drives freight this is disappointing given the huge number of tracks, sidings, loops and depot locations that WCMLs features. If services start at 5am and finish at midnight that's 2 per hour on the entire route?

 

To be fair on the section we have, there aren’t really any bits where you’d see 66’s stabling/staging. I think there is one yard near Stonebridge Park (or maybe Willesden) where you’ll see a few static rakes being held.

Whilst it is more common to see a container rake along the line, in the weekday you probably aren’t seeing more than 2 an hour & certain times, none at all. There’s a few tracks yes but generally they’re all in use for commuter stock, so it’s still very much a case the freight fitting in where it can.

Mostly this end of the WCML is a bypass for runs toward the Container gateway.

 

My thoughts are that if enough people say they are not happy and refuse to buy, then the more likely DTG will be to fix it in the future, it's the age old way of dealing with a problem like this. Say you go to buy a secondhand car and a tire is flat - do you hand over the cash? Of course you don't, you wait until it's fixed then you hand it over.
I'm refusing to buy TSW5 when I can get a free upgrade because the only route I really want is WCML. When it's sorted I'll buy it. If it isn't then I'll wait a year until it's on sale at a decent discount for what it's worth in it's current state.
But at the end of the day it's up to each individual how they spend their money.

 

Not only that if it is indeed Rivet, that's two timetables they need to improve and two routes they need to improve overall. It's now September and Fife hasn't even been sorted yet either, so if indeed the mantle is on Rivet, you can probably expect updates for WCML at about march/April next year. If they bring that forward, expect Fife to be pushed back to accommodate.

 

Trouble for me Vern is I live in London and know this route very well, how the LO 710's are the most significant runner in timescale out of Euston. To relegate them to one every 90 minutes destroys the immersion for me and likely others that know the route. It's no longer a simulation but fiction. You could say that 2 routes saves you money of course, if you want them which is cool. But I don't want to be seen supporting something I feel so strongly about. When the 710 timetable get reinstated as is, I will buy. If it doesn't I'll wait until it's on deep discount just for the other units really.
It's a crying shame as I was so looking forward to this, but TSC's WCML is really good.

 

The thing that still annoys me, is anytime that Rivet get any criticism, you will get this undertone of them looking for sympathy. I've never seen them take any accountability or come out and say "look we know we can do better in future and aim to improve 'XYZ' areas of our work". (I'm not talking about small patches, but the overall work in general. Its like a copy and paste with every route)And they genuinely can not see their mistakes. Instead they just march on making the same mistakes without any thought for the general feedback that they have received from previous add ons.

And to add insult to injury, we get drip fed statements about the developers feeling hurt about the criticism. I just find Rivets repeated attempts to invalidate fair criticism quite distasteful, dismissive and actually quite provocative. My word of advice to them would be to listen carefully to feedback rather than have a 'throw your toys out the pram approach'. Skyhook are a great example of turning things around and look at their reviews now? I've not once heard them deflect or invalidate genuine feedback. Something behind the scenes needs to be said about this. Maybe it has already I don't know?

I appreciate Alex making that comment off the record, but also be able to read the room, rather than think this is unnecessary and overly critical feedback. Its a back catalogue of previous mistakes that are still fresh in peoples minds and lead them to boil over when they learn of certain developers having participation in this project.

24 hours to go until we see the WCML in the flesh for the early access players. This will be interesting and show both the positives and negatives...

 

Thanks CK95 for taking the time to go through the timetable issues. It's seems that this route had potential to be really interesting in terms of being busy and to have quite a variety of stock on it. What a real shame.

 

I have a serious question concerning timetables… not question if they should be complete or not, but what difference does it make to your running a service. Since most commuter routes should be scheduled where there is little congestion if all is running correctly, a lighter timetable would mean you have a fewer meets along the route but should not affect the timing. Of course if the timetable would overload the route with backups and delays just from the sheer number of trains, then that is another matter meaning the route is over utilized.

Besides have more services to choose from to run, the actual running of a service, besides the number of meets should not really be affected that much - Correct?

 

A small comment on this - there are 198 Tube services in the WCML TT but to represent all of the playable real-life services, we should be looking at more like 300 services (19 hours x 8tph north of QP x 2 directions = 304).

There's also the possibility that if Rivet have simply reused their 1938 Stock timetable as has been postulated, some of the 198 services may literally be turnarounds at the Queen's Park shed sidings (I hope not but... confidence is now very low with this timetable to say the least).

 

I wasn’t planning to buy anyway, but it’s such a shame this route has been shortchanged, especially timetable and night lighting, which also ruins the night timetable that is left.
I don’t understand why DTG gave rivet such a free hand on this knowing the amount of dissatisfaction on these forums about them. Seems strange.

 

To be fair every single rolling stock in this pack is missing services, I will say I didn’t think the BL TT was down by a third though.

Some transparency on what went on with the TT as a whole though would be great, something fishy is going on with it & I’d like to know what it is DTG have actually done on this route, because Rivets fingerprints are all over almost every part of it.

The UK team at DTG had to be doing something right?

This honestly just looks like DTG are trying to trick me into buying a Rivet DLC.

 

Correct, but it is the meeting of trains that is the main issue. A place like WCML you should be passing/have trains passing almost continuously. That's the main highlight of the route. Without that it's not really WCML South.

Look at Brighton Mainline, the entire reason it is popular is because it is busy. If only 40% of the timetable was there it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular.