So most of us who bought the deluxe are already basically beta testing the game, so I figured there should be a thread to get as much feedback on the timetable as possible. If anyone else has more feedback feel free to add as I don’t know if I will get everything tbh. So here goes… For a start the Obvious, the lioness line. Obviously I myself being Xbox haven’t got that side yet and won’t until the 17th, but don’t really have to to know that 65 services for a 4tph timetable is laughable. It doesn’t even cover a competent 2tph if you think about earlier services and depot moves. This seems big already but obviously gets worse. The Bakerloo line is next, and this one is also really lacking, you’d have to look into the timetable yourself to see it because I won’t be able to do it justice, but the short answer is Bakerloo line services have way more then just 198 services, I think I heard 8tph quoted somewhere? And because a lot of these services are shunts the 198 services becomes much smaller, looking at the timetable right now you’ll see a 5 head code every 2 or 3 services down so it’s pretty bad. A shame as well as the DC lines could have been a great reason for this line to have a proper variety of things to do, but what’s the point if it’s so lacking in immersive timetable? I haven’t found a heavy lacking of services in the LNWR side of things, but what everyone has obviously noted is that DTG for some reason only made one variant of the 350 and this was somehow meant to take on the whole timetable, which obviously it can’t, so nearly every service is a 4 car, which in real life is obviously crazy rare to see. And meanwhile it looks as though 12 cars are a myth, which I might be wrong about but a line with such a capacity issue wouldn’t these be more commonplace? Doing one variant is really dumb, especially considering they had the time to model both 390 variants and redo the 377/4 to the 377/2, which yes probably didn’t need a lot of work but still. The freight is just really dumb, not being rude but Willesden looks more empty than Cathcart before its rework, and that’s saying something. Barely enough static stock in the yards, no use of Wembley Reception sidings 1-7 and 38 services in freight seems lacking, might be realistic but regardless the yards have nothing going on, and it shows. On top of that no RHTTs or ROG 37 work which is really stupid because runs are done all the time to depot areas on the WCML and the line is constantly used as a way to access the Great Western Mainline or the South Western Mainline to deliver units, and the 37s are also stored at Wembley H.S. overnight before working there duties. Credit where Credit is due, the 377/2 was a smart idea, but a 1tph with these units adds nothing tbh, and their runs are so quick that I see no point in even including them, their thoughtfulness would have been appreciated had the timetable not been in a gutter, not to mention that they could’ve diverted this time to making another variant of the 350, which is what’s called a better idea. Railtours are Usually a given in timetables now, the only routes that have most recently lacked them either on release or on reworks are routes done by Rivet or Skyhook, I don’t think I need to say anything about their quality standard, but to sum it up, it’s lacking. This lack of attentiveness on things like railtours, rog services etc. couple with the huge gaps in the timetable lead me to believe DTG tried to get the route done quick by farming out timetable work. There’s no definite proof as far as i am aware, so make your own conclusions, the only reasons I make accusations like this is based on the dev history in the past, rivet never implements ai services for other location's, examples like fife and e2g will show that. Skyhook is better at making timetable's now, and their fairly recent recovery of mml is much better, but for those who do remember, it did not start out that way, and before was debatably one of the best examples of what not to do with a busy mainline timetable. I’d put money on it being rivet as they are the only ones that constantly stick cotton buds in their ears whenever they hear the words “criticism”, but make your own deductions as you please Finally (sorry for the essay) the Avanti side of things is the only one I can’t quite pin down, I did some research through wiki to find a rough look, it looks roughly like an 8tph service count, though obviously some patterns like Holyhead can’t be done as the 221 or the 805 both aren’t included. A problem I noticed quick however as in another post I did say it might be likely is that depot moves only occur at the start and end of the day. Obviously this doesn’t make sense as more 390s will be needed at certain parts of the day, and less needed in others, which would mean moves to Wembley Depot at certain peak times. The Service count also doesn’t look perfect. To do some rough math, ignoring really early services times like 5:30 or something stupid, let’s say an average working day is 6:00 to 24:00, or midnight. So 8tph x 16 hours would be 128 services not including depot moves obviously. Then you would have to multiply by 2 to get both directions, and we are now looking at 256 services. Now like I said obviously a decent few would need to go, as 805s or 221s are not in the game, so whoever could find out just how many services they take on I would appreciate it, but I could only assume it’s not a lot, as besides their diesel capabilities there is no reason to use a smaller capacity train over a 9 car or 11 car. Total current services add up to something just under 120, including depot moves as well, so you can roughly see that there is definitely lacking service pattern in the timetable for everything. Like I said previously if anyone can either add more problems of the timetable of their own or prove some of this wrong (which please do I need some good news about this dlc ngl) that would be appreciated And dovetail, if you’re reading this, come on, get it together. We both know what this is, it’s rushed
IMG_4361 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4362 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4363 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4364 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4365 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4366 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM IMG_4367 by masteralfie#7803 posted Sep 13, 2024 at 7:19 AM These are either screenshots roughly highlighting my point about shunts taking up lots of service count (Bakerloo services), depot moves being in the morning and evening only (avanti pendos) or just showing the lack lustre amount of services on the trains like the 66, 377/2 or the Bakerloo stock
I’m on PS5 not Xbox but I assume the timetable is the same. I’ve spend lots and lots of time on this section of the WCML both working on the infrastructure and as a passenger. The route is well modelled and pretty accurate so no complaints really on that front. The timetable though is pretty disappointing - the number of 390 and 350 services is lacking for sure. And there is a chronic lack of 8 car 350 services - from experience these trains operate in at least 8 cars even late at night especially on weekends. It’s very rare to get a 4 car on that south end of the WCML. It’s also disappointing to have not layers, as stated about there could be plenty of RHTT and ROG services, and a few rail tours. This has been done very well on Brighton Mainline and Southeastern Highspeed so don’t understand why it can’t be done here too… Final thing which is highly disappointing - Wembley yard and Willesden look desperately empty. These yards are hubs of activity in real life and would be rammed full of empty stock, freight wagons etc. So the total lack of AI in these yards is a real shame and surely wouldn’t have taken much effort to do
The 350 consists really are bad, I think you’d struggle to get into double digits if you counted how many ran as 4 car IRL. The AWC *feels* about right, there is lack of runs (AI mainly) at certain times but I suspect those are the Crewe Shuttles & Holyhead runs which you’d need an IET or SuperVoyager for. There’s also a few runs to Bham & Wolvo that are covered by the 805 & 221’s. LNWR again looks & feels ok mostly, but it does seem quiet between Watford & MK. Overall I don’t think too much is missing from those two, but it would be nice if DTG would fill some of the blanks in where needed. The biggest issue with them though is the incorrect consists for the 350 & 390’s consists being the wrong way round. Between Wembley & Stonebridge Park could use a couple more static freight consists in there but you don’t really see much else in the daytime other than the limbo’d 321’s & STEX 745’s more toward Willesden. Willesden again would mostly be 378’s & 710’s which aren’t on console until the 17th. Maybe someone on PC could shed some light there, as it’s usually got a fair few in the yard. The ROG37, 08 & RHTT was a big miss for this end though, shame. Maybe DTG could get a little creative with some 390’s laid up (you wouldn’t usually find these during the day) & some 350’s in place of the WMT&LNR 730’s that are currently staged there. The distinct lack of business on the South end of the route is definitely coming from the missing LO & LU services.
Totally agree on the route modelling, was stunned to see just how vast the yards of Wembley and Willesden were, it’s clear they definitely gave it a proper shot modelling the route.
I know that gen 8 consoles aren't as capable but as I'm not willing to spend upwards of £450 on a new console I'd like to see the timetable more like it was on previous games when they had a recommended reduced timetable and there is the full one that you could still use anyway as it's not as good doing the WCML with just 390s and 350s when it is advertised as having all the other layers etc. Plus being able to toggle layers should help alleviate some issues anyway.
I mean It would make sense, I doubt they missed too much from avanti sides of things, but real-time trains shows quite a few depot moves throughout the day bringing trains in and out of service as well as moves that could be done as ai (might have been and they didn’t say) to other locations as ECS. For the areas of London that is honestly my biggest concern, I knew that the traffic between Watford and Milton would never hit the ceiling like London, which is why I was looking for the high intensity of the service pattern into London, but both the Overground and the Underground are huge disappointments and are easily shown as some of the laziest layering I’ve ever seen. While I don’t think it’s as big a problem, the 350 consists are really stupid, huge oversight from DTG tbh, and not one I was expecting from them these days. Then again I assumed the pis screens would work, they sure showed us!
Agree with this, I think the 350 and 390 timetables are pretty much there. I just did a run and the WCML actually felt quite alive, a good amount of 390/350 traffic, the Southern 377 and even 3/4 freight trains, best one I've done so far. However looking over at the DC lines, I saw one 72 stock and not a single 710 the whole way, so that really needs working on. It still does feel a little quiet but I think that is the missing 221/805 services and some of the LNR 730 services (what were the 319s) missing, I guess we have IETs and Aventras in game in other guises so fingers crossed for future WCML versions of them maybe. Just need to boost the 350s up to 8 cars for the vast majority, and there are some 12 car sets timetabled as well which would be nice to see. Agreed, this area does feel epty but as you say its full of dumped 321s in the most part which aren't in the game anyway. There are always a few 710s parked at Willesden depot and a few hidden nearer the Wembley depot you can see from the mainline on PC, so again not too bad there.
This is my main problem with TSW in general... back in the TSW2 days there was very little to see in any of the sidings or stations, which totally blew the realism for me no matter how good the loco's cab that I was sat in. Still is a problem today, although arguable less so. But it does really suck when you go past a large yard and there's basically nothing there.
I just ran a query on today's working timetable for Euston. It comes back with 896 (!) movements... the first being an ECS departure at 0003 (5M19) and the last being the arrival of the 1A83 at 2359. Probably shouldn't paste the full result set here, there's a LOT of data! And example half-hour at noon though:
If you take the existing 390 & 350 services, then add the potential full LO service timetable, you get to about 550 services. Someone would have to dig out the AI runs DTG have put in and add those too but even in game you can see a lot more 390’s running than what you could drive from the TT. Let’s be reserved and say there are 100 AI services in a 24hr period, we’re now at 650 (potentially). You’d then have to go through your data and exclude any 805, 730 & 221 movements. Let alone anything else we don’t have in TSW, that found its way into Euston, which is more than you would think. Overall it’s as I said, they have gotten quite close with the 390 & 350 services. There’s a couple more layers I’d like to see, and some more static stock going on, along with a few more ECS movements of course. The biggest issue in terms of missing services is the DC line. I suspect the only Main UK terminus timetable that reflects reality even closely would be BML or SEHS & even those will be hundreds of services off.
I’m quite glad to be wrong then about the avanti and lnwr services, makes me glad that at least that is running at a decent level, which does track as tbh I didn’t see much problem in the avenues of avanti and LNWR anyway, but wanted to try and be through. DC line wise is quite sad, I guess we all knew that by the total of 710 services anyway ngl. What layers specifically would you like to see? And would they require more rolling stock or could they be added without any additional?
For realistic layers from what we have in game, the ROG37, RHTT & Class08 would add some more detail to the yards south of Wembley. For less realistic layers from what’s in game, you could make use of various bits of trains to flesh out the yards, akin to the likes of Doncaster & Derby in game (MK2’s, 3’s, couple of BR locos etc). A couple of the TMD’s/yards often store disused stock. We could also see some of the Engineering pack being used to spruce up the work area around HS2 & other odd sections.
Yh I definitely agree, they would bring Wembley alive, especially with it being such a prominent location for freight and unit drags, I’d also suggest maybe some static freight in lines at Willesden that they don’t wanna use for active services but idk if that might drain performance? Also maybe a unit drag siting win Wembley reception sidings 1-7 as they usually leave them overnight before continuing on, dk about many more tbh, not that familiar with the WCML,in real life, just know the rough ends of things
The only gaps I can find in the LNWR timetable is the Birmingham New Street services, which are meant to be every 30 minutes, but there are some 2 hour gaps in some places. Most of the services are there.
This all sounds like a total repeat of the NY Trenton timetable where some trains (like Amtrak) basically had everything and others (NJ T) were a shadow of their real life.
Matt commented somewhere on here that they tried to get as many services in as they could… so were they running into performance issues or something? Did the dispatcher break? Which technical reason is holding them back from implementing a full timetable? Genuinely curious!
That is a shame, I was hoping that side was less problematic then the DC line timetable, really hope they work to fix it Me to, I think that dovetail has gotten really good with timetables most recently, with examples like Cathcart or southeastern, so I’d be interested that if they didn’t farm out the timetable to rivet, then why are the layers so inconsistent?
Some unique services would be nice, such as class 323 moves to Bletchley depot, some diesel/steam railtours (Not sure if the Flying Scotsman has ran into Euston though). Some electrostar drags with the ROG 37 would also go a long way, even if not necessarily prototypical for this time period. Maybe some 1938 stock services for people that own that.
Tbh I've gone on the west coast mainline a lot of times in my life London - Birmingham some services don't even stop at Milton Keynes or Watford junction so they could just add easy ai trains too that don't stop at any of those stations The underground and 710 is an absolute shambles it really takes the immersion out the game however it's well built it looks great but the timetable gameplay really makes the route feel a little empty. Also the PIS screens need to be updated and TFL map signage should be on the platforms like they did in bakerloo line And who knows when the livery will return but if it does and all the above gets fixed I'm quite happy to be honest some bugs here and there but I'm sure they'll improve it
Funnily enough, they did that with ECML. Some run non stop, some only stop at Doncaster or Peterborough.
There definitely are some AI only 390s that run non stop as I've had a couple I've tried to take from Euston and it won't let you as they are first stop Crewe / WBQ etc.
I did notice one service that I drove ECS that ended at Euston and wouldn’t let me drive it after that so that is good, DTG can have that lol
Yep I could agree with most if not all of that, the 710 and the underground are by far the worst parts of this route, that and the pit of empty that is Willesden, even with some stock it’s nowhere near what it should be. As for the bugs I was accepting that regardless, day one the preorders would be beta testers, but some of these features that are lacking are so simple, just a shame really
Is it possible to create fixed assets that replicate rolling stock for yards that create an impression of a busy location? Especially in closed off areas I imagine it would be pleasing to the eye..
They’ve done it before, most notably I’ve seen them in scenarios for the original LIRR and the Oakville Subdivision. But that was over 4 years ago, so who knows why they haven’t used those since.
The Class 390 services are fine, The Class 350 services are annoying as its 4 car services and unrealistic. They really need to fix the Underground and Overground services though.
Pretty much, I’ve found that the timetable is fairly consistent as long as you’re not in London, because then it’s obvious. No railtours or ROG drags is stupid as well, ROG does loads of work to Wembley and Willesden, yet they haven’t done 1 service with it. Wasted opportunity and they really need another 350 variant
Just driven service 2T67 and if anyone is after a suggestion its quite a good one. Even between Euston and Harrow I saw at least 4 x 72 stocks, a 710, a couple of freights, a southbound Southern and plenty of 350 and 390s including being passed on both sides by 350s leaving Harrow. It's a shame that all of the runs aren't like this, as this was the great busy route I had been looking forward to.
