This is not a technical report or bug report. Loose considerations. Out of boredom. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wikipedia | ZUSI manual (p197) State of the game (LZB Ende behavior): 403 & 406 | Sound warning | AFB lever reset is enough 101 | Sound warning | full AFB reset required 182 | No sound warning | full AFB reset required 112 | No sound warning | no reset required In the case of "112", LZB does not protect against exceeding the speed limit, but activates the G indicator when this occurs and implements the braking procedure. Other locomotives in TSW cut the tractive power off, preventing you from going over the speed limit (with AFB on). 1. LZB v-Soll (p194/195) 2. Current speed and current tractive power (positive value, despite overspeeding) 3. AFB settings Questions: 1. Can the LZB installations differ for different machines? // sound warnings, procedures (eg LZB Ende) 2. Do "112" works correctly? It looks interesting: Aber ich spreche deutsch nicht BR o7
Concerning the video: Nothing new was said in it. Most of the video is about dealing with LZB malfunctions (interesting, but unfortunately irrelevant for TSW) and other oddities. Only the end is about the LZB end. Just the basics of using PZB free to acknowledge LZB Ende are mentioned. No mention of AFB or old DR locos (112/143) whatsoever. They shouldn't differ as far as I'm aware. The LZB manual says: + akustische Signal (typo in the manual - should be akustisches) translates as + acoustic signal - so there should always be a sound warning for LZB Ende This picture later on in the manual also mentions an audio warning: Putting the AFB lever to zero should always be enough. That's what it says in the manual at least: Nullstellung is the operating word here. It refers to putting the AFB lever to zero. This I don't know. For any other Germans (or speakers of German), I'll link the Br 112/114/143 manual here - perhaps I overlooked something, but I couldn't find any detailed descriptions of LZB operations. My source LZB manual
Thank You \o/ This is far enough. Sound warning & Just AFB lever reset = prototypical. I checked it out today hoping they improved something in the last update. Well
Also: I don't know if the game representation is correct in this regard- when approaching the end of LZB control, if there is a speed reduction upcoming after the end of the LZB zone (even if the train is within the braking curve distance), LZB does nothing about it and one must start the slowdown manually, even though LZB is still engaged. Is this true to life, or a TSW error?
Interesting question. I think this would be accurate for real life. PZB is always running in the background - meaning that if there is a speed restriction just after the end of LZB, the PZB braking curve would immediatley come into effect and trigger an emergency brake application if you‘re above the braking curve. The logic behind this is that after LZB Ende starts flashing, you‘re technically (according to the rules) already guided by the track side signals (even though LZB is still in effect). As such, even if LZB doesn‘t know about an upcoming speed restriction, the driver does and is expected to act on it which PZB checks once it‘s enabled again. Note, that this is just my interpreation of the rules I know about. It‘s possible that I overlooked something in the manual.
To traverse 1700m in less than 10 sec you would need to travel above 612 km/h Isn't it "At least 10s and at most 1700m"?
10 second to acknowledge (safety) 1700 is the distance to the physical end of the section from the place where the alarm occurred
I see. So it cannot be below 10s (at LZB brake curve) but not above 10s + 1700m? Maybe I'm repeating what you wrote but this is my understanding: If LZB Ende alarm starts during the end of a LZB brake curve from let's say 200 km/h to 160 km/h. Then the next speed limit location cannot be within 1000 m of the 160 km/h speed limit location. If the lower speed limit was within 1000 m of the 160 km/h speed limit then LZB would protect this speed limit I.e. you can't have a LZB Ende during a LZB reduction (always happens) to 160 km/h or lower and then while above 160 km/h you drive past a Lf6 etc.
10 seconds is about safety like Sifa or PZB. 1700 is just information similar to how far from the signal are magnets placed etc. Just a number. After 1700 m the train will no longer be under LZB control. p194/195
10s and 1700m have no correlation whatsoever. 1700m is the distance between LZB Ende flashing and the actual end of LZB. 10s is the time you have to acknowledge LZB Ende before there is an emergency brake application. Truth be told, I didn‘t think that hard about it. I worked with the situation of a) there is a speed restriction closely after the actual end of LZB and b) LZB doesn‘t know about it. If I got LZB down correctly, an Lf6 sign within 1000m of the actual end of LZB should not trigger an LZB braking curve since the distance counter would count down to the end of LZB - not to the upcoming speed restriction. Apologies if I got that wrong - I don‘t have time to look through the manual again now.
Example: approaching Augsburg from the east, there is a reduction from 150 (which LZB has already handled) to 90. The 90 limit occurs past the end of the LZB zone, and at least in-game, LZB has no knowledge of it and it does not appear as the 'next speed' display, nor does it begin to brake. OTOH, between the end of the LZB zone and the 90 it's much too late to slow from 150; you have to start braking while LZB is still active. Is this accurate, or an error in the game model?
Ok, this is where we have to go deeper into LZB workings. In the manual, I found this: Roughly translated: When the LZB Ende process is ongoing, what the distance counter and Vziel (target speed on the speedometer) are showing is controlled by what the LZB central command centre has calculated as the best point to end LZB control and the speed it has calculated for that point. That speed is dependent on the speed limit in the LZB zone and speed restrictions shortly after that point if LZB central command centre is aware of them. This should mean that there is no easy answer to your question, solicitr. If the following 90 km/h restriction is known by central command centre, it will give you a braking curve down to whatever speed it thinks you should be doing when LZB ends. If it doesn‘t know about it, there‘ll be no braking curve for it.
The implementation of PZB / LZB in TSW is somewhat simplified. For me - it is enough. But it's better to be proactive PS I just wish they would bring all trains to the same level of "implementation" (sound warnings, etc).
I think ("think" being the key word) that as long as the next speed reduction starts at least 1000m after the LZB Vziel has reached it's final commanded speed it should be okay. Because then the driver has enough time to brake as without LZB. It seems weird (maybe unprototypical) that you can have the following situation in TSW2: LZB commands speed to 160 or 150 km/h and in the last part of that deceleration you get the LBZ Ende warning alarm. Then after reaching 160 or 150 km/h you pass a L6 sign that indicates a coming speed reduction below 100 km/h (would cause 1000 Hz magnet activation in PZB) but since you still haven't passed the LZB end point there is no PZB activation. In reality this seems like a big danger. Basically: In TSW2 (maybe not IRL) there seems to be a gap between LZB and PZB where you can ignore decelerations from 150 km/h to below 100 km/h without PZB protection.
Here my 5ct. TSW basically does it wrong. Taking the LZB exit Situation just before Augsburg as an example, LZB always knows what the exit signal commands and takes it as Vziel. following illustration is taken of an official DB document, which can be fully read and downloaded here: https://fahrweg.dbnetze.com/resourc...a6b07465367c0bd417d87/rw_483-0202A03-data.pdf Sorry it’s in German, however, it shows an typical exit situation with a Zs 3 indication at the exit signal. Even though the LZB ends just ahead of the signal, it leaves you into PZB with the commanded speed of that signal. Whatever comes after the exit signal is then up to the PZB. Hope this explanation is clear?!
Amazing. Thank You I have one more question. I do not fully understand this passage. My knowledge of English is not outstanding and I cannot process the quotation into any meaningful data. EDIT I cannot find any logic in this description above.
Alright, got it. Got lost in this… ehm… free style translation (at least it sounds like it to me). What they mean is that LZB Ende is only indicate to the driver if the approached exit signal does not show hp0 (stop or red). If it does, the procedure is that you stop under LZB and only once the signal gets out of hp0 LZB Ende is indicated to the driver.
Would this imply that the LZB end-section is positioned so that it never ends between a "pre-signal" (Vr) and a Hp-signal (or equivalent) since then LZB can't protect the last bit of track up to the Hp0?
In general that is exactly the case. It can end at a Vr signal, however, never at a position where it leaves the train unprotected (ie, as you say, between a Vr and a Hp).
Maybe just to add something, to show how protective the system actually is. If you read further in the document I linked to above, there are instances where LZB even knows the position of the next signal after the LZB exit signal, as it may have a more restrictive influence then the exit signal itself. It is quite a clever system, however, expensive to run (in real life, that is)
I think I read the same thing (in German) in the official manual, too. All it means is that if the exit signal for the LZB sector (LZB sectors usually end 50m in front of a main signal - the exit signal) is showing Hp0 (red signal, stop), the LZB Ende process will not get started. Once the signal switches to green (usually while the train is standing still), the end process kicks off immediately. This was actually the last thing covered in the video you send in, breblimator.
Oh, was the situation described by solicitr about the exit signal showing 90? If so, then yes, LZB will absolutely know about it. I though the restriction to 90 was coming after the exit signal.
so here I am again, digging for info, finding an ages old and half-dead thread to ask for info ... I kinda feel like a thread necromancer anyway... in BR 101 Expert thread (one of many, I believe it was bugs/fixes/troubleshooting thread) cwf.green mentioned that upon exit from LZB, AFB "locks" and if you dont reset it (prototypically if possible) (AFB reset procedure) within like 10 seconds, AFB sets itself to 0 kph and starts braking... I have tested this on BR 101 (OG version) and various ICEs (406, 403 and present 411) of those, only 101 behaved like that, ICEs just prevented throttle from applying power unless AFB reset happened is there a prototypical way AFB should behave if one "forgets" to reset it within a certain timeframe or different locos handle this differently?
If you forget to reset AFB, it will be automatically set to zero, so your train will slow down to reach this target speed. Everything else would not make any sense.
yep, I know... but I tried BR 403 on Koln Aachen (Free Roam) and Fulda Frankfurt with ICE-T... in both cases, it just did so I couldnt take power, but AFB stayed at the previous target speed, didnt go to zero and the only braking I was getting was from not taking power BR 101 (the non expert version), however, did as you said I mean, I rarely forget to reset AFB and I can do so fairly quickly, but... I kinda want to know that behind the scenes stuff is working as it should... because from time to loooong time, when I am super sleepy, I can be a little slow... and I want the game to punish me ... because I want to learn and be a better virtual driver so, maybe they didnt implement this in ICEs so more casual players wouldnt be scared when all of a sudden AFB started braking for zero? I dont know
Consider playing Zusi3 for accurate implementation of PZB, LZB and ETCS. It will let you sleep at night, you can rely on stuff working prototypically there. I think TSW still has the bug that the blue indicator flashes when crossing an active 500 Hz magnet in non-restrictive mode, whereas it should be steady initially. And the LZB seems to not work correctly on F-Fulda.
You're overthinking it. If a train acts unprototypically 9 times out of 10 it is due to a mistake/lacking resources by the developers, not because they try to nerf the game to cater to "casual players" The 1 out of 10 times it is either due to the feature requiring too much work (which does not apply here) or because the licensor required obscuring it (doesn't apply here since it is present on some German vehicles). The non-expert BR 101 didn't have the correct AFB behaviour on LZB Ende initially but I added it on the realism update patch I did before TSW3. The BR 101 Expert regressed here because I missed it during development (the 101 Expert was a 100% rebuild so it's not like I removed the feature, I just forgot to add it because I was focused on other things and forgot ). I have since added the prototypical behaviour to the BR 101 Expert and it will arrive when the patch is released. I can 100% confirm that the BR407 and 408 has this behaviour (I have a recording of it), so I would be extremely surprised if not all the other ICE3-variants (ICE-T included) have it IRL. My "educated guess" is that it is present on all German locomotives with AFB, at least since the BR 401.
on FlixTrain Vectron if you forget to reset AFB it goes to zero, on ICE-T it doesnt so if I understand your reply correctly, then some locos have this, some dont... I am pretty sure ICE-T doesnt, one time I left the AFB as it was on purpose, and the only braking I got was from me not being able to apply power (before I reset the AFB of course), and the yellow needle stayed where it was as well, didnt go to zero so I guess not a big deal, thanks tho for your detailed answer and as for overthinking, if there was a championship in that, I am sure I wouldnt fare too bad in the competition lol
BR 401 AFB goes to 0 upon exiting LZB, but doesnt start braking for zero BR 403 and 403 RBW go to zero, but dont brake for it then 406 and the new 411 dont set AFB to zero, just cut throttle one interesting thing I noticed on 403 RBW and 411 is that if you use AFB (while still under LZB supervision) to lower your speed, it will not only brake, but also lock throttle so it looks like while some ICEs set AFB to zero upon exiting LZB, but dont brake for that zero... and only 101s also do brake for the zero (havent tried 146.2 on Frankfurt Fulda for this yet, I just tried that one if it is capable of actually ending LZB, and it is, and it does some braking) btw BR 407 and 408 arent in TSW, only in Train Simulator Classic
you should be glad you dont have OCD or any of the stuff (I guess O )... I know it is a game but then as soon as I smell sth off my mind goes into overthinking 3000 mode lol
I am having trouble with the LZB Ende transition in the FLX Vectron. I acknowledge the warning, zero the throttle, and reach the end of LZB. When I cross into PZB territory, I try to take the AFB lever to zero and then back up, but it seems to "resist" that and go into full braking. Once that happens I can put AFB where I want and then hit the confirm speed button (Ctrl F on the keyboard or put the knob top) and then PZB restarts, but by then I have lost a lot of speed. When I reach the end of LZB, should I just move the AFB to the speed I want and then hit confirm? Finally, is there an in-cab signal on the loco that the doors are closed and locked?
Yep, that is the procedure. No. The locomotive and coaches as simulated only have TB 0 (only lock/release, no side selection or feedback).
