Alan Thompson Simulation Route Discussion/speculation Thread

I will just say it here, I do apologise for my rudeness on my previous thread on the Manchester route something that was just announced. I have calmed down for a bit after the closing of the thread.

my real main issue is that we are going to be paying for the same train not once but 3 times if somebody were to purchase this and the class 66 case is already worse as it is for an example. I don't hate reusing old/previous stock, but because most of case is that they are layered on to the route if you owned another one and you get additional timetable runs on another route. Here the only new thing we have is the route and it doenst allow us to go all the way down to crewe and as i already said before, paying the same train again. I at least say the Class 66 issue is better than this because the main focus of routes that 66s are included in aren't really the main focus as much as how the train has been reused so many times. But we already have 2 routes that already includes solely the class 323. Cross City Line and Glossip Line. Why do we need another route that only includes the Class 323 again (and this is a case if you dont have other TSW add-ons to make the route busier) and that also connects to the point that this is a bad route choice. I am also tired about short liner commuter lines that cuts at a station where it isnt even a big terminus station and those kinds of route are constantly being pumped out (and quite a lot of TSW routes falls into that category). And no, being a newcomer to TSW is not really an excuse as much as how I want to forgive them in doing so. And I will just quote back what OldVern as I think they put it best.

While not that I have a good suggestion for what Northern route they should've picked as i am not familiar with the Northern network. It would've been nice to get a route that doesnt include the Class 323 or anything that can be a main focus for the route like a train that isnt included in TSW yet.
You also mention about being able to stretch the Class 323 more but cant you do the same by just spawning in a Class 323 in a longer route (others have said this to me about HSTs not being able to stretch its legs in both GWE and MML so i am just point this back).

And the "if you dont like it, dont buy it" argument just doesnt work because it protects the developers from any sort and shuts down anybody's criticism and frustration towards the game and making us not being able to speak up. We are allowed to do so, as much as how I know what I said before in my previous thread isnt a very good example but i am confident that others can.

 

I find it strange that generally the "don't like it, don't buy it" argument is usually pounced on as being unhelpful and glib.........

 

Speaking with your wallet, is the biggest thing for a developer, along with constructive feedback. You haven't been constructive, you've been downright dismissive.

 

Absolutely agree. And DTG are openly encouraging criticism (not bashing), and we can vent our frustration. But eventually there's a point where it's more important for you to understand that it's just like it is, and it is not reasonable to expect a full Bernina Line for example. I complain once about something, and then look for a way how to deal with it. Don't like it don't buy it is the only way for you to not get angry (and a game is for entertainment, not frustration.)

The high quality of flight sims is due to it having a greater audience and there's always been a good healthy competition on the market (I'm an X-Plane guy). Microsoft dropped train sims in 2004 (the result was what is now TSC, MS contractor studio Kuju making a deal with Fund4Games and publisher EA initially and Paul Jackson's RSDL/RSC/DTG buying the software, seeing its potential as a DLC based product, eventually growing his company from less than ten up to 200+ employees, and selling it to Focus when retiring himself).

Yeah, frustration is less in TSC, open file structure, longer routes and merging is possible. Countless 3rd parties adding content to the game. The fully working editor is a main reason the community could enhance the game for everyone. And they did.

 

I'm less concerned about routes being short and more concerned about the routes we do get still being riddled with bugs and unfinished features.

 

That is the history of TSW. Engine and content are being developed side by side, the engine is never finished. Stuff gets broken inevitably, each DLC built on a specific core revision. Noticed how in Scenarios (!) the clouds are now morphing at a ridiculous 10x fast forward speed? Play SBD Race Way for example and check the sky. I thought that was deliberately done for that scenario as a hint to "book" for the player, until I've seen it in other scenarios as well, so it's a bug. It's... Unreal .

Seems there's an undocumented change in the TOD4 volumetric cloud system that is not compatible with the scenarios' own weather definitions any more. That happened before, "Can't make your mind up" on MML has instant weather transitions from one second to another. Overcast sky, a short flash, and sky is clear...

The whole handling of the game appears more like "damage control" out of control to me.

Pardon me for taking this ATS thread off topic. Should've taken my Ritalin.

 

Missed opportunity not going to Crewe really

 

That's twice in the last few hours I've seen you use the word glib

I heartily approve, such an underused word

 

I should give my say:

For an ATS first route to TSW, I must say I'm personally exited for this route. I always feel North of England is a desert for modern routes apart from the Glossop Line. Now we finally get a lively busy service.

I'm more of a commuter type person so I'm curious to see how this plays. At last the Northern Class 323's legs can be stretched with possibly the ability to no longer see Manchester Piccadilly as a ghost station.

Ideally, this is how DTG should develop routes. Quality Vs Quantity, the patience will be paid off.

 

because the fact that you or i don't have to buy the route does not make it immune to criticism.

 

But it makes you immune to getting upset and wasting time and effort trying to change something which is not in your hands... Pay for stuff that makes you happy only!

 

This is what I am trying to say which you're here to shut me down from stating frustrations and criticism.

 

I'm not shutting anyone down. Just giving my thoughts and arguments in the discussion. These are, if you read carefully, generalized and not pointed at you at any time.

 

Looking forward to this one. Travelled to and from Manchester Airport loads of times from Wigan so this will be the first TSW route i'll really know well.

 

DTG aren't a small studio with a handful of people and I have seen the reaction when they have produced shorter routes.

 

I’m glad people are pointing that out. Another limited dev build route.
Just trains given us a 100 mile route and A.S don’t get enough time to develop it to Crewe.
A quick google search and it shows Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe is 28 miles, which is what they’re advertising in distance. So we must be getting two branch lines from M.P then.

 

Ok so as others pointed it out, it won’t go to Crewe which is sad but I’m gonna play advocatus diaboli and say it’s the first ATS route for TSW. They’re learning the tools and throughout the time they’ll produce something better.

If the route, despite its short length and EMU already present, is quite successful, we might have another DLC with a new rolling stock to that line and in the future, longer routes from ATS.

Personally I really enjoyed the Goblin line and I must agree that I’m getting bored quite quickly but the route’s well detailed, if that’s the case for this one then I might be tempted. Let’s hope we won’t be disappointed or it’ll be a hit or miss for ATS debut in TSW.


Finger crossed for a 156 !

 

is this the line that the ATS will be making which consist of the class 397

 

Yes but that's their second route. Not their first. I'm sure now that ATS have got to grips with the editor they'd be able to either churn out shorter routes at a quicker rate or produce longer routes in a reasonable timeframe.

Based on the images on this route, I'm very excited for their next release (323 is not my cup of tea but might buy in a future sale). Based on JT doing a yearly release I feel like ATS will do the same to keep a decent quality.

 

I never thought I'd say this about a modern British route, but I think I'll wait for a sale.

All it amounts to is a suburban Manchester route with the 323. Cool. We already have one. I don't really care that it goes to an Airport, we have that in the game too. There is nothing about this route that jumps out as unique or interesting to me. I get that ATS wanted to start small, but there are so, so many smaller rural lines they could have done instead. Ones that would be more unique and likely easier to create too.

If it went down to Crewe I'd be singing a different tune. At least then it would start/ end at another big mainline interchange, and give us a 30 minute Pendolino run. As it stands we might be able to drive it from Stockport to Piccadilly... Maybe 10 minutes if running under restrictive aspects? How fun...

I'm not sure I like this trend of opting for "network" style routes over proper end to end runs, as the end result feels half baked. It's the same with Cardiff City Line. I would much rather that route had prioritised going all the way out to at least one of the valley line destinations instead of focusing on having 100+ short runs from two intermediate stations on a bigger network.

 

They said back in August they were only using existing stock so it should not have been a surprise.

See the 2nd post in this thread.

Again you don't need to buy it if you don't like it. No one is forcing you too. And if you do buy it after this rant then it shows you have an addiction.

There are routes I don't own because I have no interest in them. And nothing bad has happened because I didn't.

So yes the don't like don't buy it rule stands until it released. Then if there are major bugs that rule goes away.

But right it sounds like you personally have no intrest in the route...so don't buy it. The game and routes are not designed for only you so sometimes it will happen.

 

Couldn't agree more with what you've said. I'm an absolute sucker for these modern EMU/DMU routes, but for those of us who have both Cross City and the Glossop Line, the network aspect isn't enough. Granted it does seem like a much better Glossop Line with some more variety in the Stockport side of the route in terms of potential operations, but for those of us who have driven the Glossop to death, it just isn't enough for me personally. A Class 331 would have instantly got me to bite, but seeing a fourth version of the 323 in game might have reached my saturation point. I'm happy others will get satisfaction from this route, just my own 2 cents on why I won't be picking this up until it reaches a critical sale point.

 

I'm seeing it as possibly the quality of GOBLIN but a non linear route, definitely interesting.

 

They have to Expend the Route to Crewe before Making a brandnew Route like Rivet did with the Leven Branch

 

The only slight comfort I can give you is that you should be able to drive the Pendolino between Man Picc and Wilmslow, which will take slightly longer, but it’s still a very short run. I’m with you, though, about this focus on creating networks meaning we just get a load of incomplete end-to-end runs. For me Man Picc - Crewe via Stockport, even if that meant omitting the Airport line, would have been a much better route, with a really good variety of different types of working available and a decent length run.

None the less, I’ll probably get this route day-one if a pre-order discount is offered. If not, I’ll probably hold on for the first sale (even if it’s a fairly small discount). I don’t generally like modern EMUs but the 323 has more character than most and I think the TSW version is well made.

Before I buy it, though, I’ll be looking for confirmation that AP have fixed the signalling into Piccadilly, not just accepted what they inherited from DTG. Being able to get greens all the way to the buffer stops on the Glossop route was really poor (and particularly the refusal to fix it once it was pointed out). AP have a pack which improves the realism of TSC signalling though so I like to think they wouldn’t accept that sort of thing on their own route.

The other thing I’ll be looking for confirmation of is a full and busy timetable. If it’s just the 323s running around, I won’t bother.

 

Gosh, so much hate for the ATS route, why? I understand it’s a short route, and it does get cut off slightly before Crewe, which is definitely a missed opportunity, but ATS are starting with something simple and not going too complicated
This is their first route, they aren’t going to go straight into the deep end and push out a 70+ mile route, are they?

 

Not hate, just frustration that a logical service “group” Crewe to Manchester hasn’t been represented. If it had been that with both the Styal and Stockport route, all preconceptions about ATS aside, would probably have bought it Day One. But this can wait for reviews and/or a sale.

If they needed to cut their teeth on the editor, as others have said why not a branch line or rural route with a bit of scenery that would have seemed more complete. Looks like it would have had to be something where they could cuckoo in an existing DTG train model, but still plenty of candidates around the country. Heck, they could have done Plymouth to Gunnislake or Par to Newquay with the 101 and I would have Day One’d that.

 

Here, no hatred, just a small touch of disappointment))

 

I just get the feeling that this is going to be a great little route. Looking at the screenshots there is so much lineside detail going on, such as new speed signs (at last!) , heaped ballast shoulders next to the rails, plenty of line side infrastructure etc etc. It has a few different routing options as well, instead of just a to b, giving it a network type feel with hopefully plenty of ai (and non green light runs). Look forward to more details.

 

Oh it could be good and I guess we just have to accept it is what it is. But just like a tasty pie or cake, a small portion leaves you hungry for more!

 

I could potentially see that when more 3rd parties are on board with TSW, we could end up having longer routes. DTG would still do 3 tp 5 a year, but then one from each 3P would give a good yearly DLC haul. Benefit to this is longer routes of better quality rather than quantity.
Personally think we are missing a Loco DLC only 3rd party who is willing to build stuff for existing routes only. That would certainly help.

As for ATS, this looks very promising and I fully accept a shorter route for the 1st attempt. Learn and evolve for the next route.

 

We know the 323 is the main unit for the route, but what other stock runs on this route that layers are likely to bring? is there much freight and any DMU services that we have existing trains for, class 158 ?

 

EMT 158 as far as Stockport (AI after that until around Cheadle).

AWC 390 as far as Wilmslow, some would only be playable to Stockport though, as they don’t all stop at Wilmslow.

66 for 66 stuff - should be a fair few runs for it, they’re pretty common around Piccadilly.

 

Would the Pacer be out of era for the route ?

 

I don’t know the exact timescale for this route, but the Pacers were gone by 2020 & were rare by that point anyway. I’d say it would need to be around 2017/18 for regular Pacers. Even then though, a 142 in 2018 is quite different to the one we have in TSW.

 

Yes it's a missed opportunity, but please wait until you've actually seen the route before making a judgement. The development costs for going to Crewe, with the amount of custom assets, signage and detailing would have pushed this out of the release window ATS and DTG wanted for this product.

While it doesn't go to Crewe, it makes up for in detail and accuracy.

Post Covid 2021 I believe.

 

For the people saying couldn't they have just done a branch line to cut their teeth. Like Glossop? Which everyone also complains about as boring? It seems like unless you're JT (and we've not actually seen the quality of WCML OS outside of pictures) you can't win. What counts as modern as well these days, the 323 is 30 years old. It's probably older than half the games player base!

Genuine question, as I wasn't on here at the time. What were people saying about Blackpool Branches when it first was announced? That literally is a bus on rails route with the Pacer!

 

BPO is far more than that with the updated Class 47 and the layering of the BR Classic stuff. The 142 is also quite unique and very well crafted.

 

People were generally very favourable towards the BPB route because it didn't just go from A-B, it had variety and the quality of the route was clear to see. Also the Pacer had been much requested in the game, so that was a positive.

Having seen a few streams, Alan Thomson as a person doesn't entice me to want to buy this route. He has previously absolutely laid into TSW and most routes not holding back at all, whilst his disciples laugh away in the chat.
All that is well and good, but NOW? WCMLS is not too bad etc and things he'd have previously tore to shreds, he's not even mentioning. Now they're sat at the table with DTG, it's suddenly a different story.

I await the route with interest.

 

I actually would prefer quality over quantity any day. Doesn't matter how long the route is, if it ain't exactly well sculpted and presented then it's off putting and to that end I think they will smash it out the park.

 

Why do they?

Who are you to demand or insist on where a route starts or finishes?

They have told the community that to continue the line to Crewe would have meant that the development costs would have outweighed their time invested and created further delays to their content. They've kept it short and sweet. I know what their second route is, and boy oh boy can you tell they've learnt a lot from building a shorter suburban route to get used to the tools.

So stop saying "it needs to go to Crewe", it's not going to Crewe, the route is finalised and entering testing soon from what Alan's said. So pipe down churning out the same phrase, it's not going to happen.

 

How did you find out about the 2nd route. Obviously you can't say anything but hope it's excellent just as the 1st route sounds.

 

If ATS do a good job, they might do a Just Trains and stretch out to Crewe and Huddersfield from their reworked Piccadilly.
With the Class 397 on the trans Pennine part.
Same as Preston to Carlisle.

 

Well when you're nice to developers and offer your help with stuff, it creates a mutual understanding and it builds a relationship. Just be patient with the development cycles and you won't be disappointed in what is coming out of ATS in the future.

 

I am very excited for the route. Have not a bad thing to say about it. Was hyped from the get go

 

Well like I said in a previous post, if you like highly detailed and accurate routes, then ATS content will be in the same league as Just Trains stuff.

Want a fast long route, then go with DTG stuff, it's about choice. ATS and JT are bringing you that choice. Want highly detailed UK routes, then you'll be over the moon with their stuff.

Like I said above, trust them with their development cycles and choices, and you as the end user will be rewarded for your patience.

 

That's just common sense. You're not going to criticise the people who are going to publish your product are you

 

People are allowed an opinion, just like you have one.

Alan is a TSC person, always has been, and always will be. His views on TSW at the time he was laying into it were accurate and to the point. DTG then changed direction for 3rd party developers to allow them to come onboard. The reasons for tearing into it, was that they (DTG) had a closed policy on content, anything created was to be published as if DTG had created the work, and little credit went to the actual developer. Once they changed their stance on that, he's warmed to it.

His views on WCMLS have all been incorrectly reported, go to his Twitch channel and rewatch it. He still tears it apart, but in a constructive way. At no point does he say everything is fine, he's actually quite critical of certain aspects.

 

"Hi Alan!"

 

Was quietly wondering the same thing... Certainly seems to be a connection that ought to be disclosed.