I joined the forum at the end of last year so i didnt get the entire story why the preservation crew doesnt exist anymore. I heard the main reason was a lack of time and recources, but im not further into it than this. If there is more into it, it would be very nice if someone could explain it to me. Im just driving one of my favourite routes Hamburg-Lübeck and i just find it sad that the old routes still have those poor graphics, as those routes themselfes are very nice to drive. Correct me if im wrong, but DTG as a company grew within the last couple years, so it could be reasonable to bring the preservation crew back. I know its kind of a suggestion, but wouldnt it be an idea to make like a group of 3-4 motivated developers and give them the task to upgrade the routes to Tod4 over the next years? For me new graphics are more than enough, i dont need stuff like conductor mode on those. I still appreciate all the devs that make this type of stuff in theire free time!
Would be great if the Pres Crew came back but I think that ship has probably sailed. We're only currently seeing remastered routes because of pet projects by DTG staff in their own time
From my viewpoint, though, if they are growing the team due to more financial resource, I'd prefer that they invest in enhancing skillset to work on further optimisation, to get rid of the microstutters and freezes once and for all, get lighting working right so things aren't washed out, get LOD transitions right, etc. If they expand even further, then return to enhance older routes if there is free resource to assign to that. As much as I like the idea of what you're asking, of course.
I have often thought quite recently that I would love to see a preservation crew style team come back and take all the pre-TSW3 routes and bring them up to the current features and with updated timetables etc. Especially considering we have route hopping in TSW5 now.
My guess is that the Preservation Crew's main job was to get TSW2020's DLC working in TSW2. Once they did that, there wasn't much need for them, so they made update after upgrade to the old routes until they were phased out. I'm going to try and express the unpopular opinion here... As long as DTG continue to eliminate the game-breaking bugs quickly after launch (or release a route as solid as the Suffragette Line), there isn't really a need for the Preservation Crew, and the 'fire and forget' strategy works. On the routes that I have, this is the case. I don't encounter any game-breaking bugs (lucky me!) although I gather that on some routes that I don't own, and on other platforms, this isn't the case. The Preservation Crew was also in charge of upgrading older routes with newer features (for example, PIS on Great Western Express and East Coastway. PIS was non-functional at launch in TSW2020, but after the original Southeastern Highspeed launched, it was soon implemented into those routes). DTG is under no obligation to offer these upgrade for free, but I am very glad that they do. To clarify: bugs should be fixed for free, but upgrades don't need to be.
I've been screaming for a year for the preservation crew to return as the list of bugs increases. I totally agree with you that if the bugs upon release and the existing game breaking ones did not exist there is no reason for DTG to have a team to fix bugs. However, the amount of routes being upgraded to TOD4 and reworked with a timetable. both by a team like GWE, LIRR and Cathcart Circle. or Passion projects like SKA. or bringing condutor mode and TOD4 to older routes and stock. there is a reason to have them officially return. and with the announced rework of GWE and the more recent two british ones I think there is some team slowly working through things gladly. and I do agree. bugs should be fixed for free. upgrades to timetables (more than just 4 services lol) or a full TOD and timetable rework. or even an extension, I expect definetely to be a paid thing. The list of not functioning stock does highly increase the disappointment to play the game. I am purposely avoiding routes and stock that is broken now. hoping one day they are playable again.
The Pres Crew should only have been disbanded if the general standards of the product on release had been massively raised. The complementary reworks are very much appreciated particularly the time being put in by the devs working for free, but that should never replace the function that the PC served. Getting in there quickly after release and addressing all the issues raised and releasing the fixes. As I see it now, once the DLC is released, the route, asset and train builders are being immediately redirected on to the next project, complete with its own deadlines leaving no time to task them with going back in and fixing the errors. And so far as WCMLS is concerned, should have been thrown straight back to Rivet and told in no uncertain terms no further DLC from them would be accepted for publication until the numerous problems addressed.
Indeed, it's one thing to accept a product for publication, but to entrust them with a flagship route like WCMLS was an extremely questionable decision given their history with UK DLC.
Put yourself in DTG's shoes for a minute... or even your own. If YOU were personally bankrolling the "Preservation Team", how would you pay them? What would you have them to generate that revenue? Otherwise you're just taking money out of other areas like new route development and bug fixing. So put on your thinking cap and brainstorm ways they can generate money.
Disagree totally. The Preservation crew were an asset to DTG and people bought the routes they worked on alongside the people who already had it. For example there might of been a route that DTG released before but is so buggy (especially with new versions) that it is ignored by the players, if it got fixed some players would buy it making an easy sale for DTG without having to develop a new route. I can see why DTG got rid of them. It was for more profit and the illusion of being more efficient but imo it makes DTG look less professional and further distances them from their customers.
The economics of it seemed to work before. And without access to detailed DTG cost and revenue it's impossible to know the effect having the preservation crew available had on sales. But there is almost certainly an ongoing attrition of sales due to poor quality releases or even the better ones such as Goblin which still have issues (suicidal passengers) that makes users less inclined to buy the product. There's a number of routes I haven't bothered getting because I really don't want to pay £30 for a bug ridden mess. Ironically, when DTG were charging £25 for a route DLC, the Preservation Crew was still about. Price goes up to £30 and no Pres Crew. So the money is going somewhere, just not on fixing their shoddy released content, Any business selling products for others to use needs effective after sales, should be part of their business plan. Tesco wouldn't have a very good reputation if they closed down the customer assistance counter and people were no longer able to return rotten food, faulty goods or get the £1 stuck in the shopping trolley reimbursed.
The PC were never intended to be a "flying bugfix squad". It was set up at the time of TSW2 to port TSW1 routes over to the new system. Then that morphed into adding newer features to older routes, like PIS and crossing gates. While they were in the code they also fixed whatever bugs they happened upon; but they were never supposed to be the repair team.
Each member of the PC had a speciality, but they kept getting poached or seconded to the main team. Still, at least the onus was there to fix older content.
I understand the reason the team makes no money for fixing bugs or making free upgrades to routes and stock. but without them DTG will be known as those that fire and forget whatever they make, just try to tick boxes so it's marketable and if it breaks along the way. no money in fixing it. feels like every thread about Rivet games. although berninaline was pretty good. I don't think any reported bugs have been adressed. and I think we all know how Fife circle went. there are so many people not even believing they will make the Leven branch. I think full reworks. TOD, Timetable and possibly another piece of rolling stock like the Class 380 and Cathcart circle or LIRR 2.0 is something that the preservation crew could do and make revenue (although personally I dislike the whole "reduced" CC timetable being the journey timetable and also still available when choosing a random service instead of manually. if I get the 380. just let me unselect or merge them.) Or. and this is a long shot. since we have all routes with that fancy TSW5 compatible sticker now. a team to actually preserve those routes. keeping them up to date with functions. that being small and free fixes or big paid reworks. is something keeping the game and it's dlc alive. and drastically reduces the complaints that the entire game is broken and there isn't a single route or piece of rolling stock with no issues at all. Making people want more dlc as there is more to actually reccomend and enjoy. making not just a revenue stream for the new stuff but also the older stuff that is supposed to be still compatible. of course it's simplified and I don't think people at DTG are paid by how well their route sells but have a normal contract for their function in the company. if they add a couple more trains to a route won't give them a pay raise. nor should we be discussing how DTG pays their staff and for what.
Well, the updating of all the older routes so they could still be sold in TSW 2 worked. Having product to sell was a money saver/money maker. Now however, the routes seem to be much more compatible from the get-go with the newer TSW versions so they aren't as necessary. Again, simply prove where the money comes from to pay their salaries, and DTG would probably happily look into it. I think it's a bit selfish to ONLY look at it from one side of an issue and not consider the opposite. I'm keeping an open mind on it. Instead of people saying "well they should X because I want it".... instead just consider from the OTHER side and ask "How and why would DTG fund doing X?" It's simply seeing both sides of an issue. I've been on both sides of business and it's good to have that wider, multi-faceted perspective. If people CAN'T make a case for why someone else should do what they want... then that may take re-examining their own desires and intent. Imagine you have someone from DTG sitting there across from you having dinner. EXPLAIN to them how it benefits them to have to find more money to pay a whole new team of people. Or better yet... imagine YOU get to bankroll the team. How would YOU do it out of your pocket? Where would YOU find the additional money? I'm not saying it can't be done... but people have to step outside their own experience and consider others' perspectives.
They could bring the Preservation Crew back and put them to work updating older routes rather than have them being passion projects. They could maybe remake, rather than remaster them. Extend the route, add in more rolling stock where appropriate and voilà. Two birds with one stone. Older routes don't get left behind to rot, and they earn money.
Your suggestion the Preservation crew were just draining money. Firstly they didn't just work on older routes they sometimes did other stuff and also they fixed older routes creating sales from new players, they did make money and were getting brownie points for the company which should not underestimated.
Those are two different things. There is already a DTG "bug" team. A "preservation team" is specifically for "preserving older content." Hence the name. If it's already being "preserved" by the people developing the newer stuff and upgrading the core engine, then it's less necessary. It was a one-off missions while transitioning years ago. Again... if you are ALREADY buying the routes... then what ADDITIONAL income is to be had from having more people hired to do MORE work on the routes you already bought? If they weren't good enough... but you bought them.... then is the blame on DTG? Are you willing to pay more for routes to pay for the upkeep down the road? Do you want to pay for "updated routes" that are optional? The not so subtle suggestions (unfounded) is that DTG is sitting on a load of cash that they can just blow on whatever people want with no effect on current company projects. I see no evidence they have "too much money" and are just looking at ways to spend it. If they did have all that extra cash to invest... wouldn't they just make more routes, make more money and keep the customers even HAPPIER? For every person complaining about an older route being "too old".... there's another person saying it's "still great" and several more demanding "NEW CONTENT!" It's a matter of balance with limited resources. I can't blame them for trying to keep the 80-90% happy. It's good business sense and customer service. Again, highlight a revenue stream to pay for the work and don't just "demand" it because YOU personally want it and then figure someone else will foot the bill. If you buy a car today and in 7 years you want it "upgraded for free" to the current model for free, you'd be laughed out of the dealership. The fact that the older content is still supported is itself impressive to me and above what MOST companies do. Saying it has to be "improved" on TOP of just "supported" is above and beyond reasonable expectations. How DTG does things is essentially you taking your 7 year old car to the dealer than them keeping it maintained for free. What you are asking for is a replacement car for free. I just don't find that a reasonable expectation.
a) if they're "doing other things" they're not "preserving." They are now doing those "other things" full time...which they wouldn't do if you took them OFF bugs/etc and put them back there. So yes they are costing money. b) You have zero proof they "made money." It's possible... but I have nothing to determine that people buy MORE routes because of them... except that the routes were unusable before and the "preservation team" enabled them to be used still in TSW 2 (as opposed to 2020) This already happens from TSW 4 to TSW 5... so that job is already done. There is no value in that now from a totally new team. c) How much are "brownie points" worth on the open market? Do you take them where you work? If your boss asked you to work 10 hours extra every week for "brownie points" and because he'd "really appreciate it someday" and .... would you do it?
I don't see the need for caps. you just come over as screaming and agressive. my original post actually said I agree that bug fixes should be free but full reworks and big upgrades paid, you got your revenue stream there. I don't have a clue on DTG's structure on their teams and what they work on or how the money flows. so to get to your point: of course there is a bug team. we've seen the recent bugged and broken things with the TSW5 release been fixed a lot. however. as many people say. there's an increasing list of broken and bugged stuff on routes. missing OHLE or foliage. the 7 different quality DoSto and 9 different Class 66's all in different state of disrepair and included and not included functions. Rain not showing up on windows (expert 101 cab car and DRA 422). unfinishable scenario's and journeys. trains refusing to reverse (rosenheim 185) or weird acting signals as DTG has learned a lot the past years and older stuff has fallen behind. or even off map destination displays and two different systems for them. The list goes on. most importantly. the different TOD's on both rolling stock and routes. sometimes clashing with each other. There are now over 100 DLC and over the years have become of different standards. I myself would like to see those be actually preserved and given some new functions. for example Salzburg - Rosenheim could have the conductor mode ported onto the DoSto's now the FTF ones have that. I see that as a small, add the door control box from FTF to the SRM dosto's. and tick the "force guard mode enabled" in the timetable dosto services. but I can imagine that takes more work not including testing it. "Old" routes like München Augsburg or Ruhr-Sieg Nord have already been mentioned are going to need a full rebuild or aren't worth it for a complete LIRR 2.0 taking a month or three to complete. and although making people happier. I never said those should or would be free. and yes everyone has a different view on what is good, not good enough or needs a rework. everyone has different preferences and DTG has an incredibly difficult task keeping most of the players happy. DTG gets no income from keeping something I paid for working instead of making new content and letting the stuff they made more than 6 months ago just slowly get more and more broken and unplayable. Nor can I personally demand them to fix every known bug, upgrade everything to TOD4, add all possible stock and services that has been released for other routes (like ICE-T on DRA and Desiro Classic on multiple routes) tomorrow and only make perfect routes from now on. also keeping framerates and general performance very good for every platform. Do I wish that was possible? of course. as Matt himself said once. "I would love to have every route with all the rolling stock in all the time periods" and although I want that too, that just is not doable unless every game developer in the world worked on TSW for five years or more. to say it in short. Do I want older routes to be on par with the newer releases, and maybe more bugs to be fixed? yes. Would I pay for big reworks needed for that? depends if I like the route but yes. Do I understand that takes time and am I content with the speed free and paid reworks are coming out for older routes now? yes. Am I trying to singlehandedly try to make DTG change it's way it is working on releases, what their teams prioritise and who gets paid for what? of course not. I'd honestly be amazed if I could with a forum message, but I bet they have enough people employed to do that for me so all I need to do is see what gets released and decide if I find it worth it to spend my money on.
The emphasis is not just for "screaming" it's also for emphasis since some people seem to miss emphasized points. Nitpicking aside (not sure why you started with it) , "maybe" is not enough to support a business plan. It has to be you would "definitely" pay for a remaster. I would argue they are already doing most of what you want which is beyond what most companies provide in terms of support, and asking more should require more input on your part to keep it sustainable. Just making the older routes work with TSW 5 is upholding their end of the bargain. Bringing them all up to a "new standard", adding assets, adding TOD4, adding other features since TSW 2.... that's a whole new project. That would be essentially a new product. As I've said before... preorders would go a long way towards pushing popular projects and encouraging DTG or third parties to do the things you want. However, it seems people don't have the confidence in their own ideas to do that.
Not having read the whole thread, but the Preservation Crew is long gone and was assembled as DTG's initial plan to drop all previous DLC with TSW2 was hit by a massive community backlash. They reworked the old DLC so it was playable in TSW2, and were dissolved after work was done. Some DLC could not be made compatible, like the GP40-2 and the old NEC.
Writing posts entirely in capitals is 'shouting', using capitals to emphasise or highlight a few WORDS is fine, though personally I'd use bold or italic to achieve the same result.
Whilst the "Preservation Crew" did some great work, I feel that the resources allocated would be better used now with a "Performance Enhancement Team", or PET. It is beyond me how both DTG and long term users/fans can pretend that performance is adequate on all routes. It seems that stutters and frame rate drops are deemed acceptable in TSW to a degree I have never seen in any other video game I have ever owned. It must be obvious from sales that many people who buy that game either give up because of performance issues or go on to only buy DLCs long after release when they are heavily discounted in sales. An example of this tragic situation is the upgraded Cathcart route. The original stuttered badly in TSW4/PS5 and as such was rarely played. The "upgrade" TSW5 version, whilst looking nicer, stutters every bit as badly and maybe even more. That is enough to qualify it to be removed from my installation. Similarly the beautiful Blackpool to Preston route is let down badly by stuttering and poor frame rates in certain places which is a heart breaking shame as the route is extremely good. Whenever poor performance is mentioned the usual multi K post count users will swarm in to explain how it just has to be accepted (for a variety of often ludicrous reasons) and how they are not affected and/or are happy to put up with it. I am NOT satisfied that out of all the video games/sims that I own only TSW has serious enough stuttering and frame rate drops to actually put me off running certain maps. I would gladly do without deployable umbrellas, moths, working lifts, collecting ice cream or being a luggage shifting ticket inspector. I'd be satisfied with the simple pleasure of being able to just drive a train with smoothly rendered scenery and would be grateful if DTG guaranteed that at least for releases on current gen consoles where hardware is standardised. Any spare budget must be allocated to improving basic performance issues which at present are still unacceptable on everything other than top line gaming PCs.
Not everyone gets this "stuttering", and most don't have the issue. If the problem is "people with older systems who aren't buying new content" is the subset they are angering, then that's actually proving their business model correct. Those who aren't spending money (and who aren't upgrading their old systems because they "don't have the money" they aren't by definition a good source of revenue. You can complain all you want, but that's how you stay in business, and their number one job is to stay in business. You number one job is getting what you want. Where those coincide, there can be a deal. Where they don't match up, you'll be disappointed.
If you actually took the time to read my post, I am using a PS5 and the routes I mentioned as problematic were Blackpool to Preston and Cathcart update for TSW5 which are both fairly new content. Also the framerates on ECML in built up areas like Doncaster are awful. As for stuttering, it is laughable to deny it being a problem as it is widely commented on by contributors on here. Many of those people who find performance lacking do not continue posting and just move on considering TSW as a third rate product not worthy of the full asking price. I personally gave up with TSW when TSW3 came out. Unhappy with a sub quality product I refused to buy TSW3 and 4 and just added a few routes to TSW2 when they were offered at massive discounts. During this period I happily spent my money on other titles (often at full price) and had no complaints about any of them regarding performance. There is no other video game I own that has the poor graphics rendering performance that every iteration of TSW suffers from. In July 2024, DTG offered the TSW4 Deluxe bundle for £7.99 and I decided to give it a go. Performance problems still remained and in all honesty I feel I am being generous to say the package was even worth that money. I also picked up several routes for TSW3 & 4 also with massive discounts. Some, like Edinburgh to Glasgow and MML run well. Others like Cathcart ran poorly. Even the well made Blackpool route is badly let down by performance issues. Stuttering problems are also clearly visible on video streams of people driving routes including official DTG presentations which presumably use the latest most powerful and expensive platforms which they can easily afford being so commercially successful (allegedly). I am not complaining but merely stating fact. If you are unable to see how many people are put off by these problems then good for you. I am pleased you are content with what many consider a sub quality product. I suspect you may have also been happy with the yearly paid version update that was widely despised. Thankfully DTG saw the error of their ways and gave in to users after many took a practical stand and boycotted the product. Whether DTG again understand what needs changing is their business. What I do with the money in my wallet is my business and until performance issues are addressed there is no chance of me spending money on TSW5 DLCs unless they are available with massive discounts because that is all they are worth in their current state.
If you are buying discounted content, then you are still giving them money, encouraging them to continue. I never said "no one" had "any" issues. I said that it was not enough to keep that 80% from buying the product, validating their business plan. Maybe you didn't read my posts. Boycott again if you want. It is weird that 80-90% or more of PS players don't have the same issues, or see them differently with the same game on the same platform. Could it be internet connection or an internal issue with the PS? Full hard drive? Not the latest update? I've had issues with one PS and a new one didn't have it. Or maybe it's a different personal bias, such as the usual refrain of "this game is "ENTIRELY UNPLAYABLE"... when a paint job is the slightly wrong color. I think everyone has gotten SOME stuttering in extreme situations, but recognize that it's often extreme situations (like driving 130mph and it not being able to load in graphics fast enough) but most people just accept that as the limits of the game and platform. Again, boycott if you want. If you're not happy go play something else that does make you happy. Because it might be unrealistic expectations compared to other people. If no one is offering what you want.... then maybe there's a reason for that?
You could say the same for most office workers like human resources etc.. They don´t generate anything, still they exist.
Rivet should make the rest of Rhb network (like on TS Classic) and stay away from other ventures... thats the one thing they do really well.
berninaline is pretty enjoyable. I can't say the same for arosaline though. they should learn from skyhooks freight packs too instead of making 3 timetables with minor edits for the same route.
Kindly inform us all what magical Harry Potter like powers you use to work out what percentage of PS5 users have issues with TSW performance? I suspect you randomly plucked those figures from somewhere (?) in a failed attempt to make yourself seem well informed. TSW5 is not an online game so I am not even connected to the interwebs when playing it. My PS5 runs perfectly with every other title including those with more extensive maps with much higher quality graphics than TSW5. The SSD is just over 50% full and has no problems rendering scenery on anything other than TSW. And finally, yes I have the latest version. So please stop with the condescending and poorly thought out technical tips. I am an IT professional who in all likelihood has decades more experience than you at digital processing tasks and don't need your over enthusiastic childish technical defence of what is widely regarded as the weak point of the TSW franchise. Lol! Where have I ever complained about that. You are now sounding like a bit of a silly boy. Strange how other games with magnificently complex graphics and hugely greater technical requirements run smooth as silk on the platform but only TSW struggles, chugging and spluttering away far too often to be acceptable especially given the comparatively mediocre graphics it is trying to render. I"m not sure what is in it for you to mount such a valiant but ultimately wafer thin defence of this deeply flawed game. You come across as the last survivor in the DTG Alamo, desperately fighting your hopeless battle to the bitter end. Being honest I am now bored with your mildly hysterical replies to me and others in this thread and think you deserve no more than to be completely ignored. If no one is listening to what you say... then maybe there's a reason for that. Goodbye...
My own opinion is UE was the wrong choice right from the start. SimRail is built on Unity, which in comparison has much better LOD handling than TSW. Its scenery and lighting looks more believable, and performance is also better. Besides, Unity is much more accessible for modding.
Except... Unreal Engine handles LOD and things just fine – in other games. There is a weak link here, and as much as I hate to criticise, because I know they are passionate and they do some good stuff, but it's clearly the dev team.
I was comparing two train sims with fast moving scenery deliberately. Of course, it's also the dev team and financial constraints. The scenery fidelity is worse than TSC's in places, and much of UE's features aren't even used. It can provide superb lighting, but TSW doesn't even use shadow casting (except for headlights) and therefore light protrudes solid walls. I'm just playing the AP Class37 on their enhanced MML BedPan line in TSC. Look at the foliage variety, the dirt on the windscreen, the modelled spiral telephone cable (on the TSW 350 it's just a tube with a spiral texture)... even the nose mounted antenna is vibrating. This is basically a 2007 game still.
Ah, the good old "UE is the issue" argument. No, it is not. TSW just runs bad because it's unoptimized at places and looks bad because they can't be bothered to set up materials correctly.
That adds to it, but UE4 was never the best engine for outdoor lighting (for indoor it was, but yes in TSW it looks terrible in places even there due to lack of shadow casting lights), the lighting in other engines like VeeEngine (MudRunner), ForzaTech or Prism (ETS2) is simply superior, no matter how much you tweak it. Which serious simulator used pre UE5 Unreal Engine? Imho it's fine for Fantasy stuff and such...
And I will fight anyone to the death who refuses to bow down to the only true simulator...... All hail our true simulation god GOAT SIMULATOR!!!
