I don't know if this has necessarily been covered before so moderators feel free to delete if so. What I've noticed over the last couple of weeks is with the release of TSW5 and all of it's faults, it has created low morale amongst players, with quite extensive negative feedback overall. So rather then being a complete mudslinging contest of negativity I thought I'd try and balance the scales a bit, and get a balanced view of the game overall so developers can see the compliments as well aswell as negative feedback at the same time. What I'd like to do, is to try and balance things out constructively, so we don't just get the completely negative feedback, if that makes any sense at all? So I thought I'd start a thread in which (like the title suggests) we discuss the perceived strengths and weaknesses/pros and cons of each TSW developer in a balanced and fair way. So each developer can maybe hear the positives as well as the negatives... So each forum member can explain what they do and don't like...I only use British content so my own feedback will be exclusively centred around that. So I'll start: DTG: Dovetails solely developed routes and locomotives are pretty good overall, and there has definitely been a huge quality improvement and evolution with each new add on whether that be a locomotive add on or a route add on. The weaknesses of DTG for me personally, is them promising feautures in a upcoming release that then take alot longer then to implement. And maybe going forward, it would be wise to wind back promises and implement them over a larger time frame to save disappointment. Also there needs to be a 'quality control system' that DTG should implement with its third party developers to make sure they meet a decent standard before they are released to players. Rivet: Rivet are usually very good when it comes to building assets such as large station and the 3D modelling of their rolling stock. We only have to look at Edinburgh Waverley, or the Class 385, and 170 to see they are perfectly capable of producing good quality content in terms of 3D modelling. And one quite peculiar and small thing is they produce really nice wheel sets that DTG need to take a lesson in (reflective metal) that really impress me. The weaknesses of Rivet definitely seem to be in timetables. Creating large routes that massively lack AI services. A lack of post release support for individual routes. One of the biggest is sounds for their rolling stock. The modelling outside of stations, in terms of lineside scenary and vegetation which can be quite baron. Rivet have tried to be innovative by creating onboard announcements etc..., but I'd suggest learning about improving the listed weaknesses before creating new feautures for the game. Skyhook: Skyhooks strengths can be seen in the recent improvements to MML, particularly listening to the community feedback and acting on it. In particular outside of the MML they have done a Stirling job on reworking the EG timetable, bringing it to life with the Sprinter timetable, and creating really good quality content (wagon packs) that populate routes, gives routes more potential, and more variety of services. I'm continously impressed with their community engagement aswell as constantly listening to player feed back. Again, this is evident in this month's roadmap where they have decided to revisit the EG Sprinter timetable and improve it even more. I continously look forward to their UK add ons. The weaknesses of Skyhook, I'd say, surround their US content where a revisit and equal amount of effort that went into improving the MML, needs to to be done with their US content. I don't buy any German content so I can not comment on third party developers that do create German content, but those who do, please feel free to add to the thread...
For me I would say: DTG ➕ Relatively consistent quality (when they don't outsource things to Rivet) ➕ Good timetables ➕ Releases the most DLC's ➕ Occasional free remasters of old DLC ➖ Randomly abandoning stuff (e.g. steam) ➖ Some inaccurate models (e.g. class 37, Electrostars) ➖ Poor variety of route choices and rolling stock (e.g. constant modern commuter routes, multiple units) ➖ Being too strict with deadlines and rushing things ➕➖ Occasionally tries new countries (more would be nice, but current amount is better than nothing) ➕➖Communication is sometimes good, sometimes bad JustTrains ➕ Good scenery ➕ Good attention to detail ➕ Good timetables ➕ Good rolling stock physics, audio ➕ Good rolling stock variety (e.g. different engine types, multiple liveries) ➕ Good length routes ➕ Experimenting with new features (e.g. announcements) ➖ Can't think of anything bad Rivet ➕ Experimenting with new features (e.g. announcements) ➕ Good variety (e.g. Swiss content, 38 stock) ➕ Some good scenery assets ➕ Good rolling stock models ➖ Poor rolling stock physics and audio implementation ➖ Poor implementation of standard systems, such as PIS using textures, incompatible couplers, etc ➖ Poor timetables (quiet, not based on real life, not using existing rolling stock when it makes sense) ➖ Poor and inaccurate scenery ➖ Poor attention to detail ➖ Poor communication ➖ Being too strict with deadlines and rushing things ➖ Almost never updating/fixing DLC after release Skyhook ➕ Good communication ➕ Doing lots of improvements to MML ➕ Trying new things, such as the cargo line packs ➖ They haven't revisited anything other than MML yet ➖ Some new loco or route addons would be nice at some point TSG ➕ Good scenery ➕ Good rolling stock physics, audio ➕ Good attention to detail ➕ Good variety ➕ Good communication ➕ Consistent ➕ Expert locos ➖ Slow pace of releases Simtrack ➕➖ Class 104 and Peak Forest updates look exciting, but no recent updates on when/if it is still going to happen Union Workshop ➕ Screenshots for Tadami line look great, though can't judge it properly until it is released
Agree with everything said here. Most of my thoughts have been covered already, and sorry if I do end up repeating, but got a couple of bits to add. The first is a weakness of DTG and that seems to be their consistency: we go from solid enough scenery and timetables in ECML & GOBLIN to the WCCL dodgy scenery and patchy timetable. We are then left in limbo leading up to their next release as to which trend it will follow. Now a positive and that is for Skyhook and although it has sort of been covered I really do like how they are building on the MML release with the Cargo packs to make the whole route even better. Also the 158 fill a a nice gap and remedies one of the weaknesses of Rivet. And I am on a roll with a positive for JT this time and that is the choice of era. I know this is subjective, but I am sure everyone could agree that a variety in the era of routes is key to keeping the game fresh and JT are ensuring this. Sadly back to a negative and that is DTG and their overpromises. I don't need to expand any further than one word: steam. We'll finish on a high and I'll give it to DTG for the excellent remasters they are doing. A lot of credit to Liam & co on this one specifically, but also for higher ups in DTG Towers allowing this to go through. Like I say, sorry if I have repeated owt but I felt I needed to add something!
Pretty much every dev is far behind where they should be when it comes to bugs, unfinished features, and fixing them. I think JustTrains are the only ones that scrape into the "acceptable" category.
I measure the devs in overall quality of the dlcs and more important, fixes and updates they make after the player feedback. There are already devs, where im done spending money on their TSW products. Doesnt matter if its lack of passion or lack of capabilities, its the same in the end if a dev just goes silent after release and doesnt care a single bit about the costumers feedback. I didnt use companies names, but my wallet votes the hard way.
Lol. Comparing Mark and Thomas' skills with Skyhook is a bit over the top. Besides, after the MML debacle (don't forget they ended up removing Toton and Ratcliffe tracks), they're not in the same league, as they're only making gameplay packs (loco reskins and wagons), but no routes any more. The TSW MML as it is now is ok (took a long time), but in no way a stunner like Blackpool. TSG and DTG are way ahead of Skyhook who left the (route)building. I'm just playing the JustTrains MML network on TSC, a whole different league with endless possibilities and no restricted areas. All the way from Manchester via Chinley and Sheffield to Leicester and Lincoln. And all stock you can wish for. 215 miles to play on.
DTG: Positive : Timetables - The routes with the highest numbers of services are all dovetail products and they can (normally) be relied upon for an accurate rail scene, at least within the limitations of the rolling stock. Positive : Modelling and detail - Trains, stations, architecture and so on looks good. Positive : Updates and fixes - After a route has been released, DTG are (normally) good at releasing updates for it later down the line. Remasters are a very welcome new addition. Positive : Train performance and physics - I can generally trust that a modern DTG route will simulate the given train at least moderately well (except for steam) Negative: Consistency - My biggest issue with Dovetail is some routes are excellent and some are very much not, and until it arrives, its hard to know which side of the line it will fall. The only thing that is consistant is the route price, which makes things worse. Negative: Rapid release cycle - While this means they produce more add ons, it also means that many of these have bugs or glaring issues on release that really shouldn't have been there if they had given themselves more time. Negative: Overpromising - Making announcements of things that might happen, then it just doesn't or at least not in the time window we were expecting. Negative: Poor variety - Lots of EMUs, lots of urban commuter routes and most based in Germany or Britain. Even if you enjoy those routes, it would be good to see something different (which, upon initial announcement, perhaps TSW5 can deliver that) Mixed: Communication - While this is sometimes a strength (eg, I apprieciate how active Matt, Liam, Alex and the others are on the Forums), it sometimes seems weirdly absent such as the WCMLS aftermath and the dropping of steam. Mixed: Trying new ideas and countries - Refer to the consistency and overpromising issues above. Its hard to get excited by (insert new shiny here) when you don't know how its going to be excecuted. Rivet: Positive : Implementing new features - Auto announce was a new Rivet feature that we still don't have on other routes. A few others too. Positive: Modelling of stations and rolling stock - Rivet are generally pretty good at the creation of the important bits of a route. Positive: New countries - Rivet have done swiss routes and scottish routes, not found elsewhere in TSW (Cathcart was a DTG plus Rivet route) Negative: Timetables - Seems to feature the bare minimum too often with a focus on stability rather than making the route busy or realistic. Negative: Train simulation - What is it with Rivet games' trains and bad sounds? There's fewer decent ones than awful ones. The class 385 and RaBe 523 say Hi. In addition, the physics can be all over the place, with the trains often being much faster than the real thing (484, I'm looking at you). Negative: Scenery - While the modelling is normally decent, Rivet seem to be very weak at both the distant scenery, and the little details and clutter found around the route. Also, while it is something every developer for TSW is sometimes guilty of, noone else uses the dreaded Flat grass texture as much as Rivet do. Negative: - Fixes and updates - Out of the devs, Rivet are the weakest when it comes to supporting their routes down the line. So many things go untouched and remain inadequate years later. Just Trains: Positive: Nearly Everything so far - Don't really have a bad word to say about them (yet). Had a excellent first route and the second attempt looks great so far too. Positive: Overachieving - Extra content like multiple liverys and two different engines for the pacer. Puts others to shame. Negative: Layers - Not a true negative but you normally need a lot of other content to make them most of the route (DTG has this issue too, I needed something to write in red. Mixed: Eras - Both of their routes so far are 1980s BR routes. if thats your thing, perfect. If it isn't, Just Trains don't have anything else for TSW just yet. Skyhook: Positive : Updates and fixes - Their work bringing big patches to MML and turning a weak release into a very good route must be commended. Negative: Initial releases - It must not be forgotten how poor MML was on initial release. Nor should we forget that the BR187 was and is still bad after all this time. TSG: Positive : Fantastic eye for detail - Regularly one of the best for visuals and detail. Positive: Making sure its finished - All of the TSG releases I'm aware of have been good from the off. Positive: Enhanced simulation - The 101 Expert says it all. No other train has as much going on or as in depth as this one. Negative: Slow releases and small catalog - It'll be good, but you will have to wait for it. As it stands, they have fewer add ons than most of the others. Negative: Low variety - Yes, its kind of in the name but still worth mentioning that they generally focus on their niche and not much else.
Pretty much sums up my feelings, especially Rivet. Glad I’m not the only one who feels the IOW 484 has an Epstein Drive from The Expanse fitted. One thing Rivet do excel at tends to be scenarios, not just prep a train in the depot, take it to the station and drive it a few stops. Skyhook came good with MML after the customer outcry, but their residual issues with Cane Creek and HSC remain. DTG - yes kings of the modern one handle electric bus service, since they lost either the talent or the moxie (or both) to vary things up with a bit of BR Classic. TSG - rarely put a foot wrong. JT - Those of us who bought their content in TSC were a bit sceptical as quality there varies wildly, but they came good for TSW and their Preston to Carlisle in the 80’s is probably the most eagerly awaited DLC of the whole TSW franchise since inception.
I agree that they tend to promise more improvements than are actually delivered. I'm still satisfied enough with the improvements that they do make (even if I believe that many more could be made).
Since I only use NA content, my views are quite limited...... DTG +Can decently model trains when the correct research is provided, in both modeling and sounds. (As seen with the Metrolink Stock) +Took some feedback made over the years and applied it to San Bernardino Line. =Route modeling is mixed, some older routes still have ugly looking sections, and even with SBL, DTG still has issues with things like floating cars, terrible traffic etc. -Still doesn't fully get US freight as a whole. Terrible Consists, weird or bad choices (ASTF F7, BNSF SD70ACe + TOFC) Their manifests are terrible, Still missing some UP trains on Cajon. The awful choice of using BNSF content as the default for AVL, the horrendous UP Heritage Unit pack, etc etc etc....... -Too many European assets are still being used in US routes. This needs to be improved. -Older Content gets left behind, still waiting on the GP9RM for Livery designers compatibility. Formation designer is still missing some cars. Bugs and such with older routes. Matts Clinchfield update? Yeah that's probably dead.... SKYHOOK GAMES +Their Norfolk Sothern Heritage unit packs are good, they look proper, and they even modeled one correctly for the nose door. +Their manifests for HSC were at least better than what DTG puts out, no funny long mixed sting of cars as seen with DTG manifest consists. =Route modeling is mixed, Cane Creek has a great scenic look, but not much else, HSC is decent, but is left behind. -Some terrible ideas with their route plans. Cane Creek is a slow branch line, the incorrect cars for the Tailing trains, the weird NS train on HSC with TOFC and trash flats mixed -Pretty much abandoned their US content, no updates to Cane Creek, no TOD4 updated to HSC when they released the HU pack. No updates to the ES44AC with better sounds from DTG's ES44C4. Cant think of anything else right now.....
With TSG as the only exception, rather all devs are very communicative before releases to heat up the hype, and go very silent almost after release. For me the bug tracker & troubleshooting list of the expert line 101 is a phenomenal example how it should be. Transparent and with infos about the adressed things. On top listed possible workarounds. Also TSG about their other dlcs response usually very quick to topics related to their content.
