It would certainly be nice to see New Street busier, I use the station quite a lot and there is never not a train moving somewhere in the station. It is such a small part of the overall experience of the route though, it isn't something I am that bothered about. I have managed to drive the route for the last year and a half without it bothering me that much. There are other things I would rather DTG be spending time on.
Similar, on the Goblin they put old trains on a new route, while this thread is suggesting putting new trains on an old route, which has been discussed extensively above and on other threads. They way I look as it is like baking a fruit cake. If you only have raisins you make it with raisins. If after you've baked it your wife comes home with cherries then you can't force them into your fruit cake, if you want cherries in it you have to bake a new cake. And if you've got to put dinner on the table, you haven't got time for that!
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it busier! Just can't see it happening. I used it regularly in the early 90s, happy days!
Well, if the existing timetable is built according to the real timetable, I don't see a reason why other trains, which are in the real timetable but not yet in the TSW timetable, won't fit. Of course, you have to simulate the timetable and pack it again, and all the testing still takes a lot of time, but it's not like you'd have to build the whole timetable from scratch again like some people suggest here. The BCC services stay as they are. Well, unless they deleted the source files but I don't think anyone would be that stupid... Still, I don't think that's gonna happen so soon unless someone does it in private...
No I agree. Yes it was great in the early 90's and even better in the 80's when 31's, Peaks and Hoovers turned up with barely a Sprinter in sight.
Read my post again. I said if you use a placeholder instead of the correct train, there's a chance it won't work. WCML obviously doesn't need any stand-in for the 390 and 710 because the 390 and 710 existed at the time the timetable was made.
Yeah I understand that bit, it may not work. Regarding wcml. Let's say I didn't buy the 390 or the 710, it's not in my dlc. So how does that work? As far as my installation is concerned both trains don't exist. So the place holder, is that another train or a virtual train? This is what I'm trying to understand. How does the timetable work in the sense of a train not existing on the game but the places for it being present in the timetable? Also with wcl, when the 142 come out with bpo it was layered onto wcl. Was that a placeholder in the timetable or did rivet games make a new timetable for wcl?
That wasn't a layer, that was a substitution, something completely different to what people are talking about here, the timetable was never altered at all.......
It simply doesn't even activate the layers that need these trains. Not a problem at all. No stand-ins or anything necessary. I'm talking about the timetable author, not the player. What I mean by the "place holder" approach is this: You're making a timetable for a route. You've got some services for which the correct train doesn't exist. As an example, let's say 390s on the Birmingham route. You create the services anyway, using any other reasonably similar train from the TSW collection - perhaps the 801. Then once you're finished, you disable that layer so players don't see Birmingham full of 801s. Now, two years later, DTG has made a 390, so now you go back to the timetable, re-enable that layer, replace the 801s with 390s, run a simulation, send the thing off to testing, done. Half-hour job for the timetable dev, if the whole thing still works after switching the 801s for 390s. But that isn't guaranteed. Perhaps the 390 is a tiny bit faster, and that's all that it takes for two trains to now go in a different order at a junction after the change, and now a bunch of player services get held at red signals for 30 minutes. So this is the fastest and easiest way of preparing a timetable for possible future content, but it's still extra work for the timetable dev, which might or might not end up being wasted, because you don't know if the train you're making services for is ever going to be made, and if it does get made, the services might end up not working without bigger changes to the timetable. So I do get why DTG doesn't do it.
[/QUOTE] Still doesn't change the fact that you need a new timetable for a new train. Remember also that it needs to be driveable by AI as well as the player for it to be a permanent fixture, and it can't do that if there is no timetable for it.
If you want an example of the Placeholder approach, look at the 323 that I believe does Leeds - Doncaster. But if we get a 331 or whatever it's meant to be, that won't be altered cos you're taking stuff away from people who don't own the 331 for example.
Don't know if this is feasible or not in the software, but maybe DTG could do a kind of if 331 installed, use that, else use 323?
---------------------------------------------- Indeed, and this is where DTG need to come in. However, the Video [and my personal Gaming Experience] has proven that other Services can be placed down and driven without affecting the current Timetable, because these Timetables aren't "Full", they are extremely empty. So as these Routes have all these Gaps in, they could easily place down AI with a LOT less effort that everyone tries to claim.
No one said "impossible." Just that it was time consuming and labor intensive. On the other hand... YOU could go into scenario creator YOURSELF and make the suitable scenario if you want it so bad. =-) That's why it exists!
[/QUOTE] You are not understanding how Timetables work in this game, yes you can put down a new train in free roam but that isnt part of the timetable feature. that is a thing that needs to be pre-detirmened and calculated in their editing program. Ofcourse there is space in a timetable but developers need to program those services in. in the case of BCC you need to have new trains show up with their own 24 hour timetable. With the "extra trains cant be added to a timetable", yes you can place down your own trains in free roam but by this they mean in the editing program that allows you to drive them from the menu, have a service pattern and show up as AI. Which is not the thing you demonstrated, the train you placed down wont be there next session but everything programmed into the timetable will
I think we need a timetable editor (I know we have the PC editor, but that's not available to everyone). Timetables are important and if DTG aren't going to do them they should at least allow us to. Alternatively make those timetable mods that people have made shareable in Creators Club. Doesn't need to be all mods, but timetable ones should be a priority.
The main issue is creating and simulating on consoles. Even with the most powerful pc, it is resource intensive to simulate the timetable and it can take a few hours. Consoles are nowhere near that level tech wise. Then it's very not intuitive on consoles. How would you create 1000 services and keep track of it using a controller when it struggles with fine movements
Seems you miss the point of my Video. The Video is to combat everyone stating that Timetables are "too full" which is the reason they need to "make them from scratch". The Video shows that there is PLENTY of space in the current Timetable Services as I run my own personal Trains with my own Services within these "Full" Timetable Services and have hardly any issues without disturbing the timing of other Services. These are me doing what I want and going where I want for HOURS within the same Timetable Service. I completely understand that an actual Timetable Service is to be programmed into the Timetable itself.. I've been playing TS20xx for 10 years and TSW since it's release. However, the Routes are bare empty, and it will be very easy for DTG to place extra Services in Routes. Nobody is also asking for a full blown "busy" 24 hour timetable Service for other Loco's... We just want some new stuff added to make it feel more alive. Very possible.
Again, they can’t simply sub in trains into a timetable that was never designed to have them, regardless of space. This usually results in a full timetable needed to be remade. Which is commonly comes in the form of a route remaster. Almost all timetables have space for Free roam services, but this does not mean it has space for timetabled services.
Explain the reason why though. Everyone is always quick to say "no", yet no one has actually explained the fine details of WHY. What is stopping it? Do you know? Personally, it just seems like 1 person said this in defense of DTG, and everyone just assumed it was solid information. If you can't explain the reasoning for something, you shouldn't really be speaking up about it unless you are providing your own opinion. EDIT: Also like to mention that placing a Loco down was NOT always possible since TSW1... so no, the Timetables WEREN'T designed to fit in a "Free Roam Train"... because they didn't exist. Free Roam was initially just "walk from 1 Service to the Next". You only had the option to play Timetable Services, and walking between them. No placing Trains. You can easily fit an extra player made Service within the Timetable, because there is purely just flat out gaps throughout the entire 24 hour cycle, and if you think otherwise, we must be playing a different Game. Can you please explain to me though how I can run a 6 hour straight session on a single Timetable whilst placing and running my own Loco where ever I want... for 6 hours straight without a single load to "refresh"... and not disturb the timetable in the slightest? I know I don't disturb the timetable because I know the Route pretty well, and many of the Services since it's mostly what I play 98% of the time. I keep saying it, and I'll continue to say it. Layers DON'T sell DLC, and THIS is the reason why they don't, "Why spend resources on something that won't provide a direct income?" It's not a very smart business decision.
They have added services without new timetables with some of the loco packs, right? And they've certainly done new and adjusted timetables without remasters. I really think this should be DTG's priority, making the best use of our collection, making their game's best feature as good as possible, making routes as varied and immersive as possible.
It is SO frustrating playing routes, knowing trains could be there, and should be there, but aren't. The fact that this is available to some users but not all makes it worse.
Yes they have added new Loco's into existing Timetables, however they are "pre-planned" Loco's so they get created in the Timetable during the Route creation to save some manual labour later on. Other times they are "substituted", so these Loco's are already existing Services, but just "replaced" with a different Loco's. [This is what they tend to do the most cause it's the easiest]. Yes, they have adjusted times and some fixes in already existing Timetables as they can very easily Edit a Timetable.
Who said they were too full? Certainly not everyone has stated that, I don't think anyone has! As said above adding a train in free roam is far different to editing a timetable for service mode. DTG are unlikely I would imagine, but I could be wrong, to spend time making a new timetable or revising the current unless it's a passion project or some new DLC is released.
When you use Free Roam, you add a low single-digit number of trains, usually just a single formation at a time. This train just appears out of thin air wherever you spawn it, and equally it can just disappear from anywhere. If the path you chose turns out to conflict with an AI train, you can simply adjust it on the fly. Even in a situation that would be a deadlock otherwise! And if your train delays an AI train behind you, well, it doesn't matter at all. There's no schedule that you, the player, have to keep up with - and you don't have to worry about whether or not the AI's performance can match what you're doing. An actual timetabled service has none of these luxuries. It must be scheduled in a way so that both the TSW AI, and a human player, can actually run it. It must be somewhere on the map at all times, unless it can leave through a portal for a bit - but it certainly can't appear and disappear wherever, whenever. Resolving conflicts between trains can take hours even for an easy fix that works first time, because you have to re-simulate the timetable to know if what you did actually works. And the path that you pick for the train can't be changed during the game, so it doesn't just need to not deadlock the whole thing during the simulation - it also needs to still work if an inexperienced player in wet weather runs a few minutes late, or if someone doesn't care about the speed limit and is early. And of course, it's not just one train you add, it's probably several trains each hour each direction. Also, TSW timetables aren't perfect copies of reality. The source material to make one usually simply doesn't exist in the first place, and even if it did, making one would still be difficult to impossible in most cases. So while the gaps into which an additional service pattern from Station A to Station B would go often do exist, they might happen two minutes later than it does in the real world, leading to conflicts with a different, slightly early train at Station B. Or the platform that these trains should use at Station A might have a trainset in it that couldn't go anywhere else between the morning and afternoon rush hour because the interior of its depot isn't modelled. Or you can go to the right platform at Station A, but it turns out the signalling has a bug there, which so far went unnoticed because that platform wasn't used previously. Or whoever made the timetable originally might have seen those gaps and put some nice freight trains in there. Obviously it's not generally impossible to add more trains to an existing timetable, but it's more difficult than you think, and Free Roam really doesn't mean anything when you're talking about making timetables. And that's not something that I heard somewhere, that's actual first-hand experience making timetables for TSW.
Very easy you say. Create your own 24 hour timetable then using the unreal engine editor. Then come back and say how easy it is. You're acting like it's a 5 minute job. It's not
So basically after everyone saying I'm wrong, you all basically agree with me saying "It's possible, but DTG don't want to put the resources into it" exactly what I've been saying. And yes, many people in this topic have said that there is simply "no room". However, I run long sessions in Timetabled and I do not disturb the Timing of other AI. Their Services are still on time [front and behind], how do I know this? Because you can easily slot in between Services. Due to the timing not being messed up with a tiny bit of planning, this would LIMIT the amount of work required. Again for about the 6th time, NO ONE has asked for a full blown BUSY 24 hour Timetable for other Loco's, we just want SOME extra Services added in. SOME is VERY possible.
Keep adding water to a pool and it'll eventually overflow, because it was designed to only handle a certain amount. TSW timetables work the same. That's just the way it is, accept it.
I can only speak for myself, but I've very much been saying the same thing (adding more trains to an existing timetable is possible, but much more difficult than you seem to think, and it can genuinely be easier to just start over) from the beginning. At no point did you actually engage with any of my posts though, except for claiming my latest one meant that "everyone" (?) suddenly agreed with you. Just to spell it out: the explicit intention of that post was to explain why you are wrong about how feasible expanding timetables is. If that did not come across, perhaps try reading it again. "No one has said it would need to be an busy 24 hour timetable" is an extremely weird take. TSW timetables cover the whole day by definition, and surely the whole point of adding more services at Birmingham is to make it busier? Sure, no one has used the exact words of "we'd like the full service pattern during all 24 hours of the day", but it's still very obvious that people would get out their pitchforks if DTG came out and announced that "we've added some 350 and 390 AI services to Birmingham - it's not the complete service pattern, and they only run from 6:00 to 13:00 - but you didn't actually explicitly ask for all relevant trains and all 24 hours of the day, so this is fine, right?"
I do have a schedule to keep to. Yes sometimes I just place a Train and just mess around [I do this when I'm literally playing for 30-60mins only], however the majority of the time, I create continuous "shifts" I work [roleplay?], and this includes driving my own Loco, and changing into other Timetabled Services. I have deadlines to meet. If I'm not where I need to be on time if I'm changing into a "proper" Service, then I will miss it. Game over. Either way, Services in front, and behind me aren't affected in the slightest bit, 6 hour Shift is my longest so far, and not affecting the timings. If I am early, I do NOT set my next waypoint until my personal "Departure time" which allows a Loco that is passing to actually Pass, as I DO understand that when I set my Waypoint then the Game just "grants me access" unless there is another Service who has already claimed the Green on that particular Block. If I push in early and make him stop at a Red just before he enters the Block, then I have messed with his timing. However, I don't do that. I plan. Pretty easy to do. These runs are fairly easy, using the "9" Map tells you when Services are leaving, and you can clearly see where they are. So finding space is really not a challenge at all, you just need to have a little play around and take some notes. I completely understand how the Timetabling works, and yes as I've said, it will need some love and care from the Developers, that's just obvious, these things don't magically appear. However, with the amount of gaps in between Services, this will LIMIT the amount of work needed, and in no way as difficult as people may seem to think. So yes, the AI keeping their schedule throughout the time I'm playing actually does affect the session I'm playing, so I avoid messing them up at all cost. I never responded directly to you, because I didn't see a reason, we're all going around in circles because people can't seem to comprehend playing TSW the way I do or something? Or that they simply just don't understand? Again, I'm not mindlessly interrupting Services, I'm planning a Scheduled run to meet my deadlines. The Community will get out their pitch forks for anything anyway, so yes I personally won't have a problem if we are provided some free updates even to your extent. It's certainly better than the "Substitution" they use. They added some dumb Railcart to TS20xx for free years ago. Was the dumbest thing ever, however everyone was very grateful, and yes, there were pitchforks. Wasn't something I cared for, but I certainly didn't shame them for providing Free Content that I would never use, as I know others would enjoy it.
Eventually now? Last you said, it was already full. You know what I don't understand? How having extra Services added would affect you in a negative way. This is a proposal that many people have asked about, that will BENEFIT EVERYONE. I'm sure DTG are glad to know that you only want to be provided a half full glass of water, rather than filling it up a bit more overtime to show appreciation. The OP wasn't really rude about what they asked, yet the majority of this topic tends to be false information stating that "it's not possible without a rebuild of a 24 hour Service", which is actually NOT factual. So why would a richer experience to the Gameplay hinder your enjoyment? Yes it would require a bit of work from DTG [certainly not starting over again], and there was even a couple comments saying that they would pay, I would also pay a small fee for updated Services if it provided a better experience. Yet instead of just saying "yes it would certainly be nice to have, but I just don't see them putting the resources into it", you are just on the opposite side of the fence "I don't want any extra Services and I don't want you to have them either". It's actually incredibly negative to the part of the Community who are just wanting a bit more simply because they are Railfans and enjoy their passion. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I am just dumbfounded that people are against a better experience and like to make up stories of how "it's not possible", when clearly it is possible. I'll end again as I have said many times. It's possible, however Layers don't sell DLC. They aren't going to put resources into something that won't provide them a direct income. THIS is the reason they don't do extra Layers... has absolutely nothing to do with it needing a complete rebuild.
Fair enough. I did make two or three other points as well though. That's a big claim to make if you've never actually worked with the timetable editor. I'm having no trouble comprehending what you do - you seem to not understand that that's still quite different from actually making timetables. "You can't please everyone" certainly is a healthy attitude for a developer to have, but it shouldn't be an excuse to walk all over the standards you've set for yourself. Not the same thing at all. You can simply not use the free handcart. Not using timetable mode - a core gameplay feature - if it isn't to your liking is much less feasible. You seem to mistake "this is why The Thing is difficult and probably won't happen" for "I do not want The Thing to happen". Literally not a single person here is saying that actually, they're much happier without extra AI services in Birmingham.
