Enough Is Enough!!! The Ongoing Saga!!! It's Almost The 3 Year Anniversary

BR 114 is STILL broken, it's beyond a joke at this point.

 

There's been stuff broken for years, 187, 150/2 don't hold your breath....

 

Geez 14 years later ! At least they haven’t made the same mistake for RDR2.

 

And RailDriver still doesn't work I'm guessing

 

Another update, how many now? Must test before sending updates, DTG

 

I am with you dude, TSW has slipped back to the shadows after booting up the new maps in Isonzo

 

...and apart from one post from Harry, "Crisis, what crisis?" despite the numerous posts on the forum, not an official squeak out of DTG to acknowledge and state what the action plan is. Certainly if they can't fix quickly there should be a rapid rollback to the previous version.

Without getting into personalities there are times I despair of what is going on at DTG with TSW. It seems like a leaderless ship to the casual eye, needs someone to stamp a bit of authority on the team.

 

Dino Crisis?

"...who was it? Barney? Hahaha"

 

Getting real tired of TSW 5 now. How can you enjoy the game with the frequent blurry texture issues, video memory errors and game closing to Xbox dashboard, weather changing when resuming saved game and using photo mode and so on.

DTG need to sort out TSW 5, it's unacceptable. There's never been this many problems with previous iterations of TSW on Series X for me... How it's gone from TSW 4, which I thought worked pretty well overall, to this is super frustrating.

 

"Crisis, what crisis" was the infamous statement from UK Prime Minister James Callaghan when questioned about strikes and various other events which were tearing the country apart.

 

But but but but but but it's the fault of the leakers!!! They are the reason why we have buggy updates now!!! Oh wait... it has been an issue even before the leaks happened?
Well they are still at fault!

 

Yes, I've had the feeling for several years that DTG is a ship afloat, a " Mary Celeste " as far as TSW is concerned. A once very capable game which has lost its way and appears to have no-one in the wheelhouse and no firm hand on the tiller.

I feel that with the right leadership, we would still have steam traction and the US freight railroad would still be an integral part of the game. It just takes imagination, effort and a willingness to take a chance or two.

TSW is fast becoming a shadow of its former self, a cut down version of what it used to be. And there's a sort of complacency that shows in the streams and articles.

How many times can the game be rescued by the likes of JT and the " super modders " ?

 

I'm not sure I'd say it ever had its way!

 

I wouldn't say anything has changed really. I mean we have been moaning about the same issues ever since the beginning, lol. Everything, be it a new route, a train or feature, is released in an unfinished state, then never properly finished.

 

They set the bar too high

 

Rockstar have traditionally been awful with PC releases. GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2 are decent ports, and based on the reviews for Red Dead Redemption, Double Eleven have done a good job with the PC port as they did with the Switch and PS4 ports. Even though I have it on PS5 I still hope they release an Xbox One port as the emulated Xbox 360 version is by far the worst way to play it on a modern system, still locked to 30fps and 720p.

However Rockstar's past ports aren't great. Manhunt's Steam version is among the worst PC ports of all time, requiring mods to disable the anti-piracy measures they didn't remove despite choosing to use a cracked version of the original PC version (they really did that). The Definitive Editions aren't great but the previous Steam versions of the 3D universe trilogy are also mediocre, particularly San Andreas. Liberty City Stories and Vice City Stories also have yet to be ported to PC, and seemingly there are no deinterlace patches for the PS2 versions.

GTA 4 can only be played at a consistent 60fps on the Xbox Series S/X, emulated. The PC version does have extra content but is a horrible port with poor controls, and even a powerful computer can't run it at a solid framerate. My PC can run GTA 5 and Red Dead Redemption 2 at high settings at 60fps, but it falls apart when I run GTA 4. At least the traffic and pedestrian density is better than any other GTA game which does make it very immersive.

Of course I have to mention Saints Row 2 (not a Rockstar game) which is perhaps the worst PC port of them all. It was made by CD Projekt, who went on to make Cyberpunk 2077.

It's worth noting that TSW launched seven years ago, and if we look at the seven years after Rail Simulator launches I think it's safe to say that TS improved a lot more in that time than TSW did in the same amount of time. It's worth noting that seven years after Rail Simulator launched Dovetail announced Train Sim World, but we have yet to hear from DTG on the much-needed replacement for TSW.

 

Problem is DTG shot themselves in the foot, waiting too long before releasing the public editor. Third parties have only had one year so far to get into it, in RS/RW/TS it was there from the get go, few weeks after RS release (and it was the same tools DTG used.)

And DTG made it very clear that no community creator is allowed to sell their addons for TSW - you either do it as freeware or publish it through DTG. That was different in TSC and I've heard some DTG officials did not like that (even though DTG massively benefitted from all the 3d party content and freeware, requiring you to purchase DLC from DTG for required assets.)

I feel when the time has come and people release their first good routes (First try will most likely end up abandoned), TSW will already be obsolete.

 

I was not aware DTG won't allow third party routes to be sold separately in TSW... I guess it goes with the control freak ideology DTG seem to have, which killed Flight Sim World as well. Thank the lord that DTG can't stop third party Train Simulator DLC from being sold.

 

DTG is here taking the standard game industry position - that paid mods are allowed in the simulator community is an anomaly, and I can quite understand why DTG don't want to allow it this time around.

 

And that is a big loss for us consumers. Flight sims, MSTS and Train Simulator were flourishing because of independent developers. Still the only permanently active route builders are DTG and their closest partner Rivet Games. Year eight and the mileage offered in TSW is hardly five percent of what's available in TSC.

Doomotron, from the PC Editor FAQ which is very clear on the matter:

There's already been some uproar on Discord because of a repainter trying to Ko-Fi paywall their mods. It's not fair towards other modders that offer their work for free, so backlash is to be expected naturally. Legally one could argue if the mod is made without using the TSW Editor, if that would still be illegal. Texture mods can be made with the UE4.26 editor too, in many cases all you need is a graphics programme, UE4 for cooking and UnrealPak for packing, no DTG tools used.

Of course, these mods are nothing DTG are worrying about. They're not actively supporting them, but are also not trying to have them removed. The FAQ is specifically aimed at IP like rolling stock, gameplay (timetables) and routes, where DTG do not tolerate any market competition unless you make a deal with them, so they get their revenue share of your product (in turn giving you full tech support).

 

You might think that. Your average PC game player who uses mods would strongly disagree, as would a lot of PC game modders.
Personally, I like that third parties have meet certain standards to sell their work...

What are you defining as a "permanently active route builder"?

 

I'm not talking about mods only, but original content. Independent payware like the countless excellent devs for TSC that don't have a deal with DTG. And DTG's quality standards are obviously not especially high, so I'm not sure what you are about here.

Permanently active means these two, DTG and Rivet, are the main route building parties. Both have teams that are always working on building routes. The large majority of TSW routes is done by DTG and Rivet, they are the "TSW core" so to speak (and are historically connected as Jackson (DTG) and Gatland (Rivet) founded the "DTG empire" together by buying the RailSimulator rights). Others like TSG and JT are adding to it, but in much lesser quantity, and with their own deadlines. Skyhook stepped away after having done three routes.

Now check for yourself how many third parties (worldwide) have contributed to TSC and compare that to the number TSW has attracted after seven years, and you'll get my point. Until two years ago, DTG were not even interested in attracting new 3rd parties.

Quote from Adam in Nov '21:

Unreal and TSW require extensive skillsets to develop all requirements, even for just a locomotive DLC. Art, simulation, audio, gameplay, user interface, localisation, and many more.

The level of detail required for each of these generally means we work with teams who have individuals dedicated to each aspect. Yes, we have signed up a few individuals to the programme, but they have been involved in DTG projects and even their own projects have required others to be involved to cover all requirements (TSG currently has more than one developer on the programme, for context). The Partner Programme gives developers unlimited access to TSW operations, and because of this, we are not in a position to onboard individuals at this time, even if they have a proven record of development. This may change in the future, but for the time being we're focusing on onboarding and supporting those who have recently joined and getting them up to speed.
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-partner-program-question.61773/#post-568877

So if you're disagreeing doesn't matter, I'm saying this restrictive policy is bad for the customer, as there's definitely less content to choose from. And even this small pool of content is often of subpar quality, and also in TSC many independent devs have outdone DTG in terms of quality. Some chose to publish via Steam (through DTG), others like ChrisTrains or RailStudio chose not to and run their own webshops. Some went both ways (Searchlight, virtualRailroads, RSSLO). Not possible in TSW.

 

One of the issues DTG has with TSW is that it's for PC and console. They probably don't want a situation where the product ends up diverging because a certain set of routes are only available on a subset of supported platforms.

 

They pretty much ruled that out from the beginning. And without consoles, there'd be no TSW. Mods and cooking was made possible by Muff from trainsim.cz, not DTG as of yet. But they couldn't stop the clever community from making and releasing their own timetables and scenery enhancements for PC. (Remember trainsim.cz released an unofficial editor long before TSW4.)

 

As we’ve remarked previously, the route editor for TSW was put out for two main reasons - as a sop for having to pay again for TSW4 (though they didn’t worry so much about that this year) and as a recruitment/assessment tool for potential developers they could bring in house and put to work doing outsourced projects or part thereof. It’s over a year since I looked at it but baulked at the difficulty level and the lack of documentation. It was never intended to be like Trainz Surveyor or even the TSC editor where everyone was encouraged to have a go. AFAIK there is still no official documentation or glossary of the processes and workflow. I check the Editor sub forum from time to time and while kudos to those having a go, despite the several projects listed it’s telling that we haven’t as yet seen one freeware route for TSW emerge, not even a scaled up model or miniature railway.

And the situation certainly not helped by core code changes frequently breaking the thing, it seems!

 

So mods, then. There is no distinction between "mods" and "original content" in the broader gaming community.

If I buy a TSC/TSW DLC from Steam, I can be assured that it will work out of the box and not require additional purchases beyond a single route in some cases.

There are other factors affecting that than just having to sell through DTG!

 

What's this got to do with the fact that TSW does not have enough third parties to serve the market and demands? Which was my point.

 

No, you were making a point about the causes.

 

Yes and I have explained my view on things and the cause is they only wanted a small number of third parties for TSW, only to turn around with the release of the Public Editor, which helped them to recruit new talents. You may disagree, that's fair. Whether I am right or you doesn't change anything though, DTG will do what they will.

 

This might mean why TSC could out last TSW in the long run. I only have the free upgrade to TSW 5 and I will pick up the DE version in a sale in 2025. I recently bought Trainz22 in a sale to try it out. They seems to be more variety available to me that TSC offers and I am glad because personally I am bored of the same old, same old Class 66 on UK freights. No Class 60's, Class 319's or Class 92's etc to add something new to the freight. If DTG allowed open access for third party devs like in TSC. That could save TSW in the long run unless they offer more new trains like a Class 90, Class 60, Class 92 etc for freights and a Class 319 for the London to Brighton route like TSC has.

 

Just been reading the last few pages and very good explanations and discussion here.
I want to ask, the Mods who have to mod these DLC's because of the unsatisfactory state of them being released, do they ever get fed up because they are having to fix a route that paid developers have produced but is below average to then get it to a high standard. I am honestly curious as they do it for free.

In my honest opinion this has been one of the worst releases and also the patch updates have been horrendous... I wouldn't even call them updates.
I wish I could have mods on PS5 for TSW but is not possible but as I say we would not need mods at all! If it was released in a really good state and with minimal mistakes their wouldn't be so much criticism!

I am kinda worried that if we don't get anything by End of November then this game is doomed till February when DTG go on their long Monthly Break in December time... Then it will be the horrible build up and quietness for TSW6.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with your arguments about the restrictions on selling content.

 

matthewgoddard510
Modders are not "having to fix" anything.

Speaking for myself, I am modding things that annoy me, first an foremost for myself. Then I just share it for everyone to use (or not).

Certain demands cannot be met by DTG. Not every route can be a copy of the real world, and most players actually do not care and do not know the real route. For someone not aware of the real WCML, the DLC is ok and it sells. A dev I know once called the "perfectionists" the 1% customers you can't please no matter what, so you're not wasting energy and time you're not getting paid for on trying to please them. paul.pavlinovich explained that using the Pareto Principle.

eldomtom2
Why do I have the feeling you're just here for the sake of arguing. I have explained and justified my opinion, you have not, and you hardly ever do. You're constantly trying to engage in quarrels I think. Please leave it at that.

 

like Semmeringbahn... I havent travelled beyond Wiener Neustadt (yet), but I know of the real route, and I know of lets say CJX9, served by OBB 4744 and 4746, usually double traction... so yeah, it bugged me that they havent included Desiro ML in the DLC AND they put 4024 as CJX 9 ... but I still loved the route

 

I have to say I'm enjoying the TSC version (both DTG Semmering and RSSLO Payerbach - Wien Hbf). Got a lot of stock, the excellent JustTrains/RWA Railjet with real onboard announcements, Desiros and a lot of other ÖBB stock, old and new, there.

 

Seems i missed the "Ludmilla appreciation crowd". Sorry for being late and interrupting the discussion. Just leaving it here at hoping that the Ludmilla still actually is a thing and we will see it in the not so far future. (Imagine that level of clag in TSW)

 

Agreed, I don't understand that 420 hype. With Lady Ludmilla, I can do a lot more things.

 

I firmly believe DTG not only shot themselves in the foot with TSW, but unloaded an entire magazine into one foot, followed by a second magazine into the other, using a Colt M4. They should have known that a lack of open access for third parties would be a bad idea, and they should have changed course with TSW immediately after Flight Sim World was rejected by every FSX player with common sense.

Whether or not Train Simulator will outlast TSW is a different matter. It's worth keeping in mind that MSTS didn't die off completely and there is still a community of people who make stuff for it. It's small, but it exists. In that regard, you could say MSTS has outlived TS, but that's only because it was released years before. However, Rail Simulator was an instant replacement for MSTS. It was a near-universal upgrade, with the downside being slightly more complicated modding tools. Rail Sim and Train Simulator were upgraded over time, but the game was effectively feature complete on day one despite the most important additions to RS/TS (LUA scripting and TSX weather, which were both major game-changers) being released a few years later. TSW at launch did not replace TS. It only featured diesel trains, with no editing tools to speak of. It took a few months for electric trains to be added, but those looking to drive steam locomotives would have to wait for a number of years. And when they finally got them, they were LOVE and still are.

Then the editing tools launched a little over a year ago, but with an extremely flawed setup that makes the whole thing slightly pointless. However, with the launch of the editor that meant there was general feature parity with Rail Simulator. The parts of the game that were in Rail Simulator at launch in 2007 took DTG years to add to TSW, and even then most of it is flawed or just plainly bad. The steam simulation is practically unusable, which means that TS will continue to receive new steam locomotives for the foreseeable future. If you're into steam, it's your only choice.

There have been hypotheses into why the steam simulation is so bad, but the one I believe (which IIRC is similar to the opinion Spikee has on the matter) is that DTG simply didn't think about steam when developing SimuGraph. This meant that when they went back to add steam years later they had to try to bang it into shape, using a system primarily designed for modern locomotives that have hard data to back up the simulation. Steam trains have too many variables, and a system like SimuGraph doesn't seem to be able to do much to account for that.

To my knowledge SimuGraph works on data in > performance out. This is fine for a brand new locomotive which is easy to get information for, such as horsepower, tractive effort, etcetera, but good luck getting that data for a steam train. Train Simulator's physics engine works the other way around. You set up the performance data in the blueprints, and then you can use LUA scripting to cover the gaps. This works wonders for steam trains which can have advanced simulations based on performance information and common sense.

When it comes to the PC market TS and TSW are roughly equal, although TS has a slight lead. It's been this way for a number of years, and those of us who don't really want to jump ship to TSW have good reason to stay on the old game. Personally I see TSW as a side game and TS as the main event. TSW is something to mess around with every once in a while, and TS is the 'proper' train simulator. However, all this could change if DTG have a serious change of attitude and start fixing the glaring flaws with TSW. Will they? Almost certainly not.

 

Oh yes! Challenge now issued for DTG and associates. Though I fear the particle load for that level of clag would put even a NASA computer on its knees, running TSW.

 

I would suspect this is precisely it, although they probably wouldn't word it quite like that! I don't think it's any coincidence that they haven't completely turned their back on TS while they push on TSW. In TS, they have a product which appeals to 'serious' simmers, with a thriving 3rd-party add-ons market place, but the addressable market is relatively small. With TSW, they have a prettier, more accessible, cross-platform train sim which perhaps appeals to the more 'casual' simmer while also pulling in some of the 'serious' simmers too. Who knows if this was their original intention but this is how it seems to have played out, at least for now, and that's actually fine. The market will ultimately decide what succeeds and what fails but, for now, they have people playing both TS and TSW with, I suspect, TSW pulling in most of the money from people who maybe aren't as emotionally invested in the hobby as many of the people on here are. Maybe there isn't as much expectation management as there should be, from all sides, in terms of which product people should be pouring their heart and soul into.

 

Make that 4! My wallet is open for the BR232 ! I hope also it comes as an expert loco as well!

 

Its a worry ive come away from TSW completely and now playing Rally sims.

 

I just bought WRC 24 on sale for just under £12, finally got it installed after Steam decided to reset the download to zero at 90%.

Now just got to work out how to get up and rallying as there seems to be a fair bit of fluff (typical EA sports game) to cut through to an actual event.

 

Had dirt rally going for a long while, took up a lot of disk space so once I had enough got uninstalled. TSW is taking up a fair bit now

 

I think they made a mistake in not releasing editing tools early on (they originally planned to, but dropped the idea for some reason), but not in restricting paid content to being distributed through them.

I very strongly doubt this. Firstly, horsepower, tractive effort, etc. are output, not input. Secondly, it is much easier to get information on the inputs for a steam locomotive than the outputs - measuring the performance of a steam locomotive is well known to be difficult.

 

I really liked the Studio Liverpool WRC games on the PS2. I never really got into Colin McRae/Dirt or the Kylotonn WRC series, although I have not tried Codemasters' WRC games yet.

How on earth is horsepower and tractive effort output? If they are the output, what would the input be?

 

output at the rail to move the train forwards,
input? coal, fuel oil, electricity?

 

I assume you must be talking about how it works in real life, because otherwise like Doom I'm a bit confused as to what you're talking about otherwise. Assuming I am correct then what you're talking about really doesn't translate into what they're talking about.

To lay out a example in real life you walk, which involves in very simple terms your brain telling your muscles and bones to do intricate movements, The speed and acceleration you're walking at being "output" of those interactions. In comparison most games will translate that into a simple code that goes something along that lines of "Press W to proceed at acceleration rate X until you reach speed Y". At which point, you'd probably put in a real life walk speed and acceleration (or a equivalent in whatever weird units your game engine's using) as reference.

So sure, in reality your speed might be a output from all those complex interactions, but most games don't needs such complex system to achieve that, and so may use the real life output as a input to roughly equal it. Or at least, that's how my minimum knowledge on programming understands it.