Rivet Shouldn't Be Blamed For Routes

Frustration, that's it. I'm frustrated with them. They worked on Cathcart Circle (I think they didn't the stations) when first released and they are great.

They can do things so well and then other times they are woeful. So yeah, Frustration for sure.

 

Whys everyone rivet bashing all of a sudden? Have I missed something

 

havent they also done 218 and Expert BR 101, both of which are some of the creme de la creme of TSW rolling stock?

eeeeh, Luzern Sursee, scenery issues aside, had great and fun train but they have never fixed ETCS... which sucks, cos if they had done it right, we might have had ETCS on so many EU routes

 

Not so easy in the case of WCMLS though as it was effectively bundled with the TSW5 three route package and the fact Rivet were involved was pretty much kept under wraps, until the issue was forced with DTG.

 

For some reason, everyone decides to focus only on Rivet whenever something is wrong with a route or DLC, and will just flat out ignore if anyone else had a hand in it.

Problem is, they can't help it.

Or they buy it just to complain about it.

 

Look up business laws and tell me where it says all companies must disclose who they're working with to their customers.

Spoiler: there isn't one. Otherwise, you'd know every detail of every online business, wouldn't you?

A supermarket may be working with Arable Farms (not a real company to my knowledge, name made up for this example), but all customers need to know is whether the milk is organic or not, rather than the company behind it.

Also, as stated numerous times, Rivet weren't the only ones involved, so why the focus on them?

 

Couldn’t have said it any better. I’ve noticed that too.

 

When Midland Mainline was released, Skyhook were criticised all the time. Especially for the timetable. But eventually they started responding to the community and while it took a year they worked hard to make the DLC a great one with a new timetable and new DLCs to bring it to life. Is it perfect? No, there's still a lack of AI at Derby and Nottingham but it's a damn sight better than what was released.

With Rivet, we don't get any of that. I don't bash them because it's popular. I said before some of their releases have been fantastic and they are, especially IoW, what annoys me (and presumably others) is that they'll release items in a broken or unfinished state, ignore the players who are raising issues, release one or two patches if we're lucky and that's it, other parties like DTG or Skyhook will have to work on the DLC to improve it.

We knew Leven was coming as a free update long before the DLC was even released and so far...the update has been a success for the most part and if that's down to Rivet...awesome, well done. But it shouldn't be this much hard work to get improvements from them.

And I'll say the same about any company who operates the same way.

 

Completely disagree there. The points people have made about Rivet have gone over your head. Unless I've misinterpreted your points?

People do criticise other third party developers, Skyhook and DTG certainly don't get a get out of jail free card or are exempt, they get there fair share of it... But the difference is DTG and Skyhook certainly take the criticism onboard and strive to do better. They'd openly admit like any developer they have had bugs and issues with there add ones, but they do try to improve, they do release more then a single update to their products, and do produce fairly decent products overall.

Now, Rivet on the other hand ignites a huge wave of negative criticism from a section of the community, and not because those people want to just be nasty, or unnecessarily critical, but because of Rivets willingness to ignore useful feedback or try to even improve the issues with their add ons. As I've said in other threads, with other TSW developers there is a clear and evident evolution in terms of the overall quality of the gameplay, overall features, scenery etc... Rivets quality on the other hand has not improved and remains the same. There route building has not improved, their scenery has certainly not improved, their post release updates are a single shot in the dark and abandonware, and the standard of their work remains overall poor. The feed back is there for them to improve, the information is available on what needs to be done or iron out any issues. But do they act on it? Nope. They'd rather focus on quirky features (like onboard announcements) that admittedly sound good in theory, but are pretty useless when attention needs to be focused on bigger issues they face as a developer.

I believe that their only strengths lay in the 3D modelling of rolling stock. And that is it. God forbid, lets not trust them on the sounds for any rolling stock though!

They are perfectly capable of doing things, but they do not do them. Fife Circle and Edinburgh to Glasgow should be up there as successful routes like South Eastern High Speed or London Commuter, but they are not because of the sloppiness in which they've been made and the baron featureless timetables that accompany them.

It does annoy me when people think that the criticism or negativity about Rivet comes from a malicious unnecessary place, when it simply doesn't. It's completely valid criticism and Rivet have had time to improve themselves as developer but don't and bury their heads in the sand and do not strive to improve or work with the community to improve themselves or their products.

Believe me if there was transparency, a thick skin to acknowledge their issues as a developer and a willingness to work with the community they could absolutely turn their company reputation around.

 

I have just driven FCL after what I believe is the second patch. It is better than it was on release, it isn't perfect but overall is now a nice looking route. Driving along the coast around Burntisland was lovely.

The main problem now for me is the class 170's sounds and some odd signalling as you go onto the Leven branch. So I would say it is unfair to say they don't try to improve the issues. They might not go as far as many want but they have hardly ignored feedback.

 

It’s definitely a step up from what it used to be. I totally agree. I’m quite happy with the improved scenery too. As you say it’s not perfect but it’s definitely better than what it used to be.

 

Sincerely respect what you're saying fella. I just stand on the other side of the fence on that one unfortunately and politely disagree!

 

Skyhook are paying for the extra work they needed to put in fixing up MML by selling us a freight wagon for ten quid every so often. By the time you’ve bought all of them the price of the route and the freight layers will be well above that of a standard route. They did fix the route but we aren’t finished paying for it yet. Nothing wrong with that approach but the cargo line products are a bit pricey when totalled up.

 

They're being blamed for something that's not entirely their fault.

They weren't the only ones to work on WCML, but everyone focuses on them and only them.

Rivet also don't release their add ons directly, DTG as the publisher do.

There is way too much focus and hate towards Rivet, more than there should be. Everyone knows their DLCs aren't as good as others. But yet they continually buy them anyway only to end up disappointed (I'm not including WCML as that was also worked on by others).

Anyway, Rivet have helped DTG out with other routes in the past, Cathcart, a solid route, being one.

Nothing's going over my head, but why continue to buy DLCs of a company you know will not have the same quality as others? It just doesn't make sense, all it does is enable people to complain for the sake of it.

Nowhere have I ever said this, so don't see why it's relevant.

Is a solid route. Granted its not perfect, but its not bad either.

Again, never said this.

All I'm saying is, particularly in regards to WCML, the focus is solely on them, regardless of who else was involved. For all anyone knows, I could have done the WCML timetable (I didn't, but lets say I did on this occasion), but because Rivet was the only developer mentioned, they'd get the blame.

Rivet's DLCs (WCL aside, that is atrocious) aren't as bad as everyone likes to make out. If they were/are, why do people keep buying them?

As I said up above, DTG is the publisher. They are responsible for ensuring all DLCs are up to the standard expected of a decent release.

 

This is true, but if they just would do a little bit of effort after release to fix things, their routes would be perfect.
We have now had the planned Leven release, i wonder if anything will be solved for Fife circle from now on.

(my biggest complaints are the bernina speedsigns)

They just lack the 'extra mile', the polish, the stuck journey chapters, ...
stupid small bug fixes which are very annoying

 

You are simply not listening and avoiding the evidence. Hard to talk to somebody like that. It's not just one route or one bug, it's dozens, and especially their shoddy after sales service. Now you're trying to generalise by switching the focus away from rivet entirely. You can defend something too passionately and then you end up ignoring the facts. I always visualise rivet sticking a middle finger up when obvious bugs are pointed out to them countless times. Other companies provide fixes and most are very good these days for doing it.
I enjoyed IOW 22 and Bernina so they can get it right. They are just so infuriating as a customer, and seem never to have heard the phrase "quality control". I want them to read this and learn, to become more like DTG or JT's, that's not rivet bashing that is constructive criticism if they want my money.

 

Are you seriously saying that because something is not a law on the statute books then it’s ok to do it? That sounds like a charter for scammers to me, though not in this instance of course. But the law should be a last resort to correct miscreants.
If the good people at DTG have to hide the participation of a 3rd party dev in the majority build of a core route then something is very wrong.
Would they have hidden TSG or JT’s involvement? I don’t think so. Rivet have earned their current place in TSW hall of “fame” by their history I believe.
Nobody wants to bash them, we just want value for money, decent timetables and post release bugs to be fixed. I presume you don’t seem to want any of those things?
Calm down and take stock. We all love the game and want the best for it.

 

No, I'm not. Don't twist my words.

I'm saying that they don't have to tell you, because its not your business. You're a customer, not a shareholder or director.

You only need to know whether the end product meets your wants and/or needs so that you can decide whether or not to purchase it.

 

You're hard to speak to as well, so the feeling's mutual.

How am I trying to generalise things? Did you even bother to read what I wrote, or did you just see something you didn't like and decide to dump on it?

 

I think I'm speaking for everybody when I say I want TSW to be the very best train sim there is, I also want both them and their 3rd party developers to consistently produce content that is worthy of this great simulator, to take a leaf from the community who are building routes purely through the love of this game and hobby.
But it mustn't become a cult whereby constructive criticism is not allowed. That would be a dangerous day and I'm sure DTG would be the first to say it's not what they want at all.
It's only through the constructive critique that this game has improved so much, it's only because of us that WCMLS is getting the fastest remaster in history.
What have the cultists actually achieved?

 

Give it a rest and have a nice evening. You are becoming boring.

 

One word: transparency.

 

Much like I've said to others, I respect what you're saying (sincerely), but I just completely disagree with it and sit on the other side of the fence. I think we've both said our piece on the subject so there's not much more that can be said or added.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on the subject.

At least you're being civil about it.

 

At the end of the day, that's what the forums here for, to discuss and debate subjects in a civil manner (even if it's an intense debate!). Just because someone disagrees with me I'm not going to dislike them or be malicious. Like I've said on my previous posts I'm not going to try and change anyone's mind who disagrees with me about Rivet, just so long as they respect my stance on the subject.

So yeah, no hard feelings, just an exchange of different opinions!

 

I knew but was under NDA so couldnt say anything.
Plus it really doesnt have anything to do with me at the time when I was viewing the product.

 

Rivet may be everyone’s go to, to raise their pitch folks, but for me they’re getting better with their most recent releases. Fife circle being one of them. It started out as a disaster and deserved all the harsh criticisms at the time, but now it is a fantastic route and is even better with the most recent updates. Yet people will still never be truly satisfied with the end product because it’s Rivet.

I think people can’t move on from the past and are holding grudges.
Too much water under the bridge? Definitely for some.

 

just add HST to Fife and I wont beep ... if they ever fix ETCS on Luzern, that would be some redemption arc

 

Yes, Yes, Yes! I have to admit I was really disappointed not seeing the HST on Fife, hopefully it gets added one day.
Luzern even though it’s showing it’s age is another fine route and like WCL could use some of that Rivet TLC, but we know the trend when it comes to older content unfortunately

I wonder if Rivet would let DTG Liam give these older Rivet routes a fresh coat of paint?

 

I think there's a lot of hate for rivet on the forums mostly because they do things different than most of the other third party developers or have a lower quality route. People always say they barely communicate here like Skyhook or TSG does. but with all the hate I wouldn't either.

They are working on their own special stuff like Swiss routes and are really ahead in adding new functions never seen before.
I do think personally their timetables lack a lot and that is something I look forward to in a route. the recent Fife issues hasn't helped either, but they are still good at station modeling. I hope they can join forces like they are with skyhook on Fife circle, Luzern is definetely looking like a forgotten and dead product as ETCS is just wrong and the timetable bare.

Like skyhook I'd think that revisiting older stuff or announcing a great and high quality new product would help them a lot. but even skyhook has the 187 that is pretty damn bad.

I would (especially as a more mainland europe player) not put rivet very high on my favorite third party devs, but I would love for them to become a more positively seen member of the third party group. yes this also needs some work from them as I do think their stuff isn't the best quality. but all the threads about wanting them to just leave and never come back aren't helpful either since nobody official feels like there's any use responding to them. I'm glad modders are there to fix routes they love. but they shouldn't have to make such massive changes like for example the fife enhancement pack practically remaking the whole route and TT.

Edit: of course if something is completely wrong or incomplete without a reason why developers should be blamed or asked about that. Skyhook completely redid MML because of the community, nobody likes negativity but if that makes their product better and praised to be sold instead of looked down on, I think constructive criticism is a good thing.

 

Now that would be the icing on the cake.

 

that wouldnt be long runs, but it would still be kinda like MML but with a lot of curves and gradients, which could be fun

 

I will give Rivet some credit for their Leven branch extension after doing a few runs, it's not half bad honestly. But can you blame players for having a negative attitude towards Rivet? Rivet have been around since TSW 2 and still have the same issues they had when they released West Cornwall Local: They refuse to properly patch routes after release! You can list out a plethora of issues with one of Rivet's routes and will they listen? Probably not. They might fix a handful of things you list in one patch, two if you're lucky and then move on.

What I will say in Rivet's defence is that some people can be really downright nasty towards them. Not liking their products and constructively pointing out any errors or mistakes when they mess up is fine, but it's no wonder Jasper lashed out a while back. Saying things like wanting them to fail and hoping that they shut down or hurling insults towards their devs is incredibly childish!

 

Therein lies the problem. They see the name and instantly feel compelled jump on the hate Rivet bandwagon. Snide remarks such as 'as long as Rivet are nowhere near it' get passed about almost every time a new route or train is talked about sprout up even when they're not mentioned as well.. Why people feel compelled to instantly spout hate whenever the name is mentioned (and even when it's not) is beyond comprehensible.

Fife Circle is a solid route. A few niggles here and there, but I've failed to come across a single TSW route - new or old - that doesn't have any.

(Side note to anyone who sees and disagrees with this and wants to argue - don't bother wasting your breath.)

 

Given what you've said here:

they probably don't think it's worth it. People will always find something to complain about, so Rivet's attitude is probably that there's no point in even trying to fix anything, as no matter what, they are always met with a negative attitude.

 

I think you're on a loser with this one pal!

 

I think rivet need to push back deadlines if content is not up to scratch and maybe get dtg to check over it. Almost like a kid getting a parent to proof read their homework, as rivet are still learning TSW wise, I think a bit more of help from dtg or other partners would go a long way.

 

From what I've seen though is when Rivet lash out at the community it's not been for silly stupid issues its been from forum threads which have more than their fair share of constructive criticism as well. Which was how MML got improved to the standard it's now at.

I think honestly they've dug this hole for themselves and unless they can show up and produce a good piece of content which is well followed up with support or start to actually listen to the community feedback myself and many others won't change their stance. I'm not saying everything they do is rubbish but I'm saying the stigma they've got, they've got for a reason. And it's because of that history myself and many others will not buy their content.

And most of that is because they chose to make content that would actually be really good if they just spent a little more time and effort on it. Why is everyone wound up about the 150? Because it's a unit everyone loved and wanted to be right. Why was everyone upset with the timetable for FCL? Because it was a busy timetable with so much potential if they got it right.

 

Exactly. As my boss likes to say. "Never do half a job. Always put everything you can into a task and you'll get so much more out of it."

 

That's just the way the internet is though. No matter how good a product is or how perfect it may seem, you'll always get a few naysayers. Does that mean that Rivet shouldn't bother and not try to fix issues? Of course not. You can't please everyone, but listening and correcting people's criticisms would go a long way for Rivet's reputation.

 

Exactly this! I hate when people say "If you don't like a route, don't buy it". The problem is that lots of people would love a certain route to come to the game, but if it is made and turns out to be poorly done and the developers don't bother fixing issues, then that route is just left to rot with no fixes or updates (Mainly focusing on West Cornwall Local here). It leads to people wasting money on routes that they would love if they were done right.

 

I will say I did get Fife as it's 40% off (mainly just cos I wanted the 170) and it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Sure, it's not the best route, not by a long shot, and it is a bit rough around the edges, but I have enjoyed the bits I've seen, particularly round the coastal bit (but I am a sucker for a coastal drive). I also liked the view from the Forth Bridge (in most directions) - whether it's accurate or not I haven't a clue, I haven't been round there for about 15 years, and I'm 23. I do, however, find the timetable a bit lackluster which is a bit of an issue as I never play scenarios in TSW. Bare in mind, this is the TSW4 version. I just wish the 158 had services and not just those three scenarios - hopefully that update doesn't take too long.

 

It's true though.

If Rivet's routes aren't to the standard you expect, why keep buying them. All it does is set you up for disappointment.

 

Problem is, they're not interested in fixing the issues with their routes, they'd have done so already otherwise.

Its about time people expected a Rivet route to be done and dusted when it releases regardless of its quality, as we know that they won't go back to it.

 

I believe they forgot to add another bridge, cos there is a bridge on each side of Forth Bridge, and there is one only on one side, I believe? not a big deal for me, but I remember that being mentioned

 

There's a second bridge to the west of the two which opened in 2017. Didn't look for it though.

Edit: it's the pillars in the second screenshot in my post

 

Yeah. Fairly new. (To me at least.) I was a bit confused why they didn't add it but the other two bridges still look fab so I'm not too bothered

 

I like crossing bridges in the game, makes for some of the best shots in photo mode or just plain screenshots

 

I personally don't buy routes unless they are up to standard, but I know many people who want, for example the Fife Circle, a desired route in TSW. I also think that when routes are £30 they should be up to at least a decent standard. I think the main problem with this saying is that some people use it to defend developers like rivet if they make a product which is below expectations and don't bother to come back and fix it.

 

Rivet haven’t lashed out at the community. Ever. Atleast not to my knowledge. The community however did lash out at Rivet inappropriately with nasty threats.

To be honest I’m just thankful we got Fife Circle in TSW. It was the one route I really wanted to see happen and it did. Might not be perfection but it’s good enough now.