Rivet Shouldn't Be Blamed For Routes

“If you don’t like it, don’t buy it”
I don’t think that it is a taste problem. Some rivet routes are objectively bad, and if you are a customer and you see something labeled as “Train Sim World 5: “ and published (not developed) by DTG, and - which is important - knowing that the last product you bought with this label by DTG was good, you would expect it to be as good as the previous one.

 

I agree with your comments about Rivet being hit or miss.

What really amazes me is that Rivet replicates accurately structures like the Forth Bridge yet a simple building or house on a station or nearby are absolutely the state of amateurism of a five year old!!!

This update has still not correctly sorted issues, l have previously reported to them and at Linlithgow Station, the flower planter on the inset of the Platform is still not achievable. Typical of Rivet. I certainly wouldn’t buy a Rivet route in the future and think that they should stick to developing locomotives for the game, as l think they are reasonably good at that. But route making in comparison to other third party developers they definitely are the worst.

 

Jasper did once I think.

Although that wasn't unprovoked.

 

They have several times, Jasper did on here twice I think and another community manager did on their forums as well.

Those were the threads I mentioned which had plenty of constructive criticism which was ignored as opposed to ignoring the pointless negativity and focusing on the pages of constructive criticism lol.

 

The one bright spot in Rivet's very chequered history is that they did (eventually) fix the 1938 tube stock sound, so it's now quite pleasant to drive, aleit does still have the trademark Rivet power lurch when you go into full throttle.

 

They may have improved the sounds, but it's still an amateur representation of the train. The drivers seat cam is way too low, the Westinghouse and emergency brakes somehow give less braking force than the E.P brakes, there's no guard bell sound, no door interlock and motor alternator indicators in the cab, the dead-mans handle doesn't even activate when you stand up, I could go on...

 

Throw her in reverse and you'll stop, with "some" wheelslip! You can even send her to the moon if you do it correctly!

 

I don't want to say too much, just this much:

Rivet has often delivered poor performance and work, but has also created beautiful things:

- I like the landscape of Berinalinie, it's well done.

Five Circle just as beautiful after the update.

Rivet should work a bit more on quality overall and not wait until the shitstorm is huge to release updates.

 

Can I ask what happened? I'm not aware of anything until now.

 

As londontransportclips31 hints at, I think one reason for all the flak Rivet get is the closed ecosystem of TSW. If Rivet do a route/loco, no one else will afterwards. That means that we’ll likely never get a proper 204 in TSW now after Rivet all but ruined her in their loco DLC. That’s my problem with their quality and why I will honestly admit that I’m glad they’re staying away from German content.

That being said, of course I don’t harbour any ill will to to their staff or want them to fail economically. While I have trouble enjoying any of their content (physics being what I really care about and physics are one of Rivets’ weaknesses), they do provide new types of content like Swiss (narrowgauge). I’m also partial to WCL for running the 52 on and quite enjoy the two Jubilees they released (though they could have used another QA pass).

 

Oh I know it’s far from perfect but at least they moved it from a D- to a C+ rating in my book. And I certainly prefer driving it to the 1972 stock, but then I just like old stuff (the irony in that statement of course being the 1972 stock is now 52 years old!).

 

Actually if Rivet would listen to the community feedback and go back fixing their content i would forgive that their Releases are sold in a half finished state with lacklustre timetable etc.

But since this isnt happening, im not even consider a buy on a 40% sale. I skipped fife circle once again.

When i read:
- 170 running sounds broken
- timetable incomplete
- signalling partially broken / wrong

As a dev i would be ashamed and correct this mess after taking the money out of the customers pocket. And yes its a fair point: who is gonna make the upto standard 150/ 204?

Its just my point of view, but to be fair those units are way better than the broken 187.

Also i like the jubilee equipped with aws and speedometer.

If Rivet thinks the just can come a long with the bare minimum and not give a s.hit about wrong or broken content, people will stop buying their dlcs.

Im sure the extra effort would pay back with a good reputation. (Example just trains, and no excuses like "we are a small studio bla bla).

 

I wanted to add something: As Arosa was first previewed, many errors and ideas were raised by the community. At that time, most of them were fixed by Rivet- they really listened to the feedback!
That’s why I suggest that Rivet gives earlier updates on new routes instead of first teasing them when it’s nearly done. That way the community can add many things or change some and Rivet won’t need to come back to the route months and years after it was released!

 

What about the dtg stuff that's never been fixed! Or is that acceptable, yet at the same time it's not for rivet?

I can pick holes in every single route on tsw. Bland scenery, missing scenery, bits of ole floating in the air, holes in the sky leading to another dimension (not just wcml) incorrect stop markers, passenger issues, sounds, lighting, textures, shoddy buildings, misplaced assets, signals, signs, track joints misaligned...the list goes on. But I guess none of this is a problem because rivet wasn't involved in it.

 

Good point well made

 

I personally think that a lot of friction with TSW is that we the community are locked out of it as consumers and can only offer feedback; we can't actually do anything to help.
Personally I think that the Fife Circle route was a very ambitious project that Rivet Games took and they should be credited for the hard work that went into it. Unfortunately there are so many issues with it that may not be profitable to put time into fixing. I think that the initial promise of the Leven Branch was ambitious too as I am not aware of other developers extending routes after release, at least without an additional charge.
I personally would rather help by fixing some of the bugs than simply reporting lists of stuff that may never be fixed, but because of the closed nature of TSW I can't help. Consider that in Train Simulator Classic you could actually duplicate a route and enhance it yourself. I personally think that a partial open source development model would be of benefit and interest to the community because in the end we are not going to magically get a new Fife Circle route by another developer, and that could also be a waste of resources given just how much Rivet have done. It wouldn't take much fixing for me to consider the Fife Circle as an all time favourite where as right now I just get frustrated with it.

 

No one is saying DTG or any other associates content is perfect and that they sometimes pick and choose what to fix.

However Rivet consistently ignore even constructive feedback, like the outstanding issues with WCL and the Class 150, which creates the impression of a very large middle finger being stuck up to their paying customers. Does anyone believe if WCMLS had been purely a Rivet route, the many issues would be getting looked at?

 

The same could be said about dtg when they outright ignore feedback and questions about certain things.

There's plenty of posts on the forum. Either feedback or questions, aimed at dtg that's left unanswered.

I'm incapable of predicting the future, so I couldn't say if it was left to rivet, if it would get fixed or not.
Whats to say rivet isn't currently fixing it?
And what's stopping dtg improving routes made by rivet? As far as I'm aware, when official developers make routes, it's done on dtg's system so they must have access to it.
Or maybe it's no longer in either parties budget to do the fixes.
Which many have argued in the past is acceptable, where dtg are concerned anyway.

 

What I'd counter argue against that, is, how many thorough post release updates have Rivet released VS how many DTG have released?

DTG aren't perfect but there's a lot more thorough and regular updates to their products. And DTG seem committed to improving overall quality of an add on in the long term. Rivet seem to release one or two very minor updates and then their add on essentially becomes abandonware... There's no long term commitments to their products.

 

l agree with their products become abandonware. There has never been any improvement to the awful incorrect scenery to WCL. There is no quality in their products apart from important structures like the Forth Bridge which shows they can do it, but don’t bother elsewhere. It amazes me that there work on structures is very professional but the rest of the scenery is amateurish. “If a job is worth doing, it’s worth doing well everywhere”

 

As I say in my post each dev should be taking responsibility for issues in their routes, so absolutely agree there.

However, I would argue that very few people are picking holes in Rivet's DLC here but instead falling into them with their eyes shut, whereas the holes in other dev's work does take a bit more searching, with exceptions of course.

Anyhow I actually came here just to say that I tried Fife, I found the scenery is much better on the whole and the Leven branch is lovely, however I feel the timetable is still lacking, the 170 sounds are still just off, signalling does seem a bit questionable and there are some rogue restriction boards which aren't ideal. I appreciate they did put the effort in to go back of course, but this were the absolute minimum standard that I think it should have released at initially and still only about average at best.

 

The scenery maybe better but it still isn’t accurate. They haven’t corrected any of the glaring issues that a developer like Just Trains would have seen to. There is no attention to detail, apart from important structures like the Stations, the Forth Bridge and the Meadowbank Rugby Stadium.

 

Oh yes, I agree, but when I drove the route I weren't thinking about scenic issues anymore than I would on your average route. Certainly not fully there by any stretch, but not bad to the point where my eyes were drawn to errors for the whole run.

 

I think the fact that you had to start a thread defending rivet speaks volumes in itself!

 

Lets face it, Rivet will never make it in my eyes until they bring all their routes up to the standard of Just Trains, but the whole TSW Community know they will never do that. What amazes me is how DTG allowed them to issue their sub standard offerings in the first place. I personally never want to see another Rivet route until they have proved that they are worthy of doing it properly. To show this they should start to bring WCL up to the standard that the TSW community will accept and on a par with both Blackpool Branches and Preston to Carlisle. Until they can prove that their work can be up to an acceptable standard, they should stick to locomotive development.

 

If any members of Rivets staff on the off chance reading this thread...

1) Grow a thick skin and work with the community to improve your products and turn around the image of your company. It won't be easy, and it won't be an overnight transformation, but take it on the chin and take it constructively.

2) Have better post release product support. You can't just release a few minor improvements and abandon projects in the manner you do... You need to have a level of long term commitment to fixing and updating routes on a semi regular basis.

3) If you can't build/create parts of a route due to any number of reasons, rather then just bodge job something, take inspiration from other developers and maybe work out how they have done things. Lighting, lineside vegetation, and empty landscapes spring to mind... The TSW community seems pretty close so there's no shame in asking?

4) Every so often I see a Rivet staff member pop up, but very rarely, you often use the excuse of members being crucified for not keeping a presence on the forums? Again, it won't be an overnight night thing but you need to establish your presence on the forum and engage with the community. That relationship is a bit sour at the moment, but again only a thick skin, willingness to learn, and building a relationship will help that over time.

4) When creating routes, especially ones that are popular, actually do you research and create a timetable. One of the biggest let downs is the skeleton timetable situation.

5) Now take this as you wish, but the sheer laziness of not implementing AI layers from other routes when creating a route is absolutely absurd. I understand backdated routes, but you have the most uninspiring tendancy to just throw a basic timetable and not even feature free and available AI layers. Fife Circle is an exception but even then it's very few and far between. Edinburgh Waverly is dead as is Glasgow Queen Street (minus Skyhooks timetable update).

You have every chance to turn this bad reputation around, but only you as a company can do that. Work with the community, take the constructive feedback, and evolve your products like other developers do. It's not an overnight thing buts it is completely possible...

 

What saddens me is that they can't even get some basic parts of their ScotRail trains right. And considering they are a Scottish company based in Stirling, it would take them all of two seconds to go take a photo of the pis for example on the 170 and alter the font or bogies etc. Same for the 385. But they just don't. For DTG they'll take trips from London all the way to LA in America and still do a pretty damm good job imo. So the fact that rivet are still developing to TSW 2020 standards is not acceptable. They are a very good developer for TSC from what I've heard, so they need to try and learn this tool for TSW fast. Cause they've had plenty of time. As far as I know they are the oldest third party company for tsw. So you'd think they'd be better.

They need to seek help more often for their content, listen to community feedback, push back release windows if they are not ready and do ALOT more testing of their content before release.

 

Well presumably their "sub standard" offerings are selling. This "community" isn't the complete user base.

FCL whilst still having some issues is now a decent route in my opinion. It really needs the new timetable and preferably work on the class 170 sounds.

 

I agree

 

I would love to draw your attention to this:
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/dtg-have-abandoned-steam-in-tsw.77537/
Which goes into huge depth about DTG not fixing their current content and the broken state of the routes.

I would also love to direct you to the initial feedback threads for WCML south which are thankfully now being acted upon as of the November roadmap. Slightly different but read the early part of the MML feedback thread too.

DTG or anyone for that matter has never been immune to constructive criticism...

 

Abuse from who? Sure you may have the odd person but most of the criticism is constructive or fair. There have been people who have pointed out various issues on certain routes and yet it hasn't been acted on. DTG and Skyhook have their issues, but at least they will go back and try to make their products better.

On a more general note, after reading this thread, there seems to be an attempt by the some of the usual suspects to try to frame everyone who criticize Rivet as doing so for the sake of doing so. That couldn't further from the truth. The reason why Rivet have this negative reputation from their very first route onwards is self inflected and isn't the fault of the community as one user absurdly claimed. It's due to the fact that they have released low quality routes with various issues that go unresolved. I found out the hard way when I got Edinburgh-Glasgow early last year and I have never purchased another Rivet route since.

They make a patch or two that doesn't fix the major issues of a product and then it gets abandoned which only fuels frustrations. Their most recent route which was the Fife Circle had many issues and even the extension has also been plagued with problems. That may not bother some people who have very low expectations, but those issues shouldn't be in what is ultimately a small extension. Heck, they were involved with the WCML and that route is a mess and due to all the criticism, DTG now has to go back and rectify the issues with that route because of the criticisms and shows that most people aren't going to accept mediocrity or have low expectations and rightly so

I do appreciate that they do experiment with things like announcements but it falls flat on it's face when the overall route itself lacks polish and is plagued with issues that add up to a frustrating experience. Most of their products get a mixed or negative reception reviews wise and it's not hard to see why.

When you have companies like JT releasing high quality routes with a small team, they are going to get a positive reception and it's pretty easy to see why. When you have a company like Rivet releasing low quality addons, they are going to get a negative reception and it's not difficult to see why. That isn't abuse. They wouldn't get a negative reception if they actually made good quality addons consistently and actually fixed the issues and problems with their routes.

So yes Rivet should be blamed for choosing to release routes in the state that they are in.

 

Respectfully I disagree. While there are always people posting stupid stuff on all route releases Rivet have also had numerous threads full of constructive criticism. If they ignored the stupid comments and focused on pulling together and working through the genuinely constructive criticism I don't think they'd have nearly as much backlash from the community.

Unfortunately a lot of the backlash is from people who have purchased their content previously.

 

You saw absurdity in my statement, you probably did not understand what I wanted to say.

I am not defending Rivet. I see the existing problems. I want and demand that Rivet draw conclusions and correct the mistakes made. I want the Rivet team to start communicating with us and respond correctly to our criticism.

I appealed to the forum participants with a call to stop insulting the Rivet team and calls to stop working on routes. By subjecting the developer to harsh criticism, you will not get the desired result. Just as you will never achieve love from a child whom you constantly punish with a blow of a stick. You must be demanding, but remain polite.

I have formed the opinion that Rivet is subject to harsh criticism, which kills their desire to work and to communicate, which we all lack. No one will benefit from this. This is the only thing I blame our community for.

If DTG allows Rivet to work on routes, it means they are useful and do their job at an acceptable level. But they are forced to hide the fact of Rivet's participation in the projects due to the current sentiments in the community. If Rivet were hopeless, he would probably be removed from the franchise.

I only want one thing, that we calmly and discreetly call on Rivet to correct the mistakes made and morally support the team in their work.

Or do you still consider my statements absurd?

 

To be honest I agree with Sam's statement completely...

The community has tried the softly softly approach with Rivet, and supplied them with an absolute gold mine of feedback. It hasn't achieved anything.

What you see manifesting as abuse, is frustration from Rivet intentionally ignoring feedback and creating abandonware. I'd call out any unnecessary comments, but I feel that 99% of the criticism is absolutely valid.

Rather then feel sorry for them, comments like yours only encourage and enable Rivets work practices by making excuses for them and blaming the community for Rivets issues when that certainly is not the case.

If there was an equivalent of Check A Trade for developers Rivet wouldn't even be able to make the standard in their current form...

 

I read your original post. You say the criticisms are harsh but seem to ignore the fact that there have been many attempts from the beginning by the community to provide feedback to so they can improve their work but it falls on deaf ears which causes frustrations while continuing to releae low quality addons which only hurts their reputation even more. That is not the fault of the community. That is the fault of Rivet Games. Your statement is more or less just making excuses for Rivet Games by trying to point blame at the community for calling out their work.

Yes there is the odd person that takes it too far, but most of the criticism is valid. If they had simply released good quality products at a consistent level or go back and make major improvements, then they wouldn't have the reputation they have.

I still consider your statement absurd

 

I do not claim that the criticism is unfounded! It is important how it was said! The words "lazy", "talentless", "pursuing only enrichment", "rejecting constructive criticism", "biased in communication" are serious accusations and insults. I believe it is necessary to avoid this. Once again, I want to draw attention to the fact that we do not know all the intricacies and conditions of work, and cannot be 100% objective. Personally, I am not sure who is more to blame for the quality of the released product - Rivet or DTG, or someone "X".

 

Most of the criticisms isn't like that though. Blaming the community for Rivet choosing to make routes the way they do honestly makes no sense since they are ultimately the ones who release the routes and are the ones that make it themselves. And yes they do reject constructive criticism since they don't go back and make major improvements. The feedback does fall on deaf ears. Skyhook took the feedback of MML and made the necessary improvements which is why they have a good reputation

Are there some people who think that Rivet shouldn't make any more routes? Yes but I assume the reason why is because they have just not consistently released good quality addons. They are good at modeling trains and stations, but clearly route building isn't their strong suit. It is harsh in my opinion but not baseless or unfair. They would do well as a second party modeling trains in my opinion instead of making routes

 

I agree with everything you say, but Rivet won’t listen, they never have and l doubt that they never will. People who know their routes well or indeed live on one of their routes have pointed out their many deficiencies some have shown comparison images, but unfortunately they have never bothered to correct them. The problem with Rivet is that they see their products as the best in the game, that’s why they haven’t worked to put them right.

 

Going forward I think DTG should take a share of the responsibility, certainly not all of it, but as the publishers who front the game they should have a method of quality control for third party add ons to make sure they meet a certain criteria and quality before being released.

JT and DTG delayed the release of their newest add ons to polish them and make sure of bugs were ironed out. And going forward both will receive semi regular updates. This is something Rivet need to learn themselves.

 

to be fair with what the current price tag for route is and the poor quality we got back and even as paying customers, should they not be criticised for we got in an end product (+ doesnt bother go fixing an old route that needed a much more improvement one way or another?).
The lack of time of development is one thing and licensing should be blaming those companies that doesnt let the devs to make good things for the game.

Its everybody saying. "Licensing is always the issue" and made it sound like its a shield for "because of this you shouldn't say bad things about it" anything. However it has been a frustrating issue that we cant seem to get rid of.

 

I would like this topic to end with constructive solutions. For example, Rivet will offer the community to "start from scratch" and open a topic in the "restoring trust to Rivet" section.
We all forget previous grievances and begin to discuss everything that worries us. We receive feedback from Rivet about its readiness to cooperate with the community. We determine what can and should be changed. We set priorities and begin working on correcting errors.
If the Rivet team is ready for this, let's get started!!!

 

Sure! Im supporting all ways to fix the content, give rivet a 4th chance, provide constructive feedback, making more posts about many shunting signals on iow2022 being still broken, making a third post about the axle bearing cover plate of the turbots are still missing on one side, recommend them not making promises of sound recordings which never happen, making another post of the missing cl.170 running sounds, which became broken after an update and never got a response, making a new thread in their forum to suggest not just "hear the community" but actually do something about the situation, going back to the other forum and create another thread and asking polite why after 50+ tsw routes, rivets routes still lack of complete services in the timetable, depots are found empty or questions being asked about huge gaps in the timetable or how they manage to shoot the bird with every single release spot on with there being something wrong in the routes signal setup.

Yes. Im on board and ready to go that path (just not with my money anymore..)

 

Rivet shouldn't be blamed for routes' p-p quality? What nonsense! Given their 'track record', Rivet shouldn't be let anywhere near routes, LOL

 

How about DTG should be blamed for publishing the routes.

Rivet makes them, but DTG decide to release it on their platform.

 

That's the obvious conclusion DTG should have been made by now. Either improve, listen and improve more, or get out?

 

Don't blame it on Rivet
don't blame it on Skyhook
don't blame it on Dovetail
blame it on the boogie!

So when's the trial?

 

Nah, not entirely. Yeah blame DTG slightly
for enabling a route to be released in a poor state as the producers of the base game. But the overall blame and responsibility should be on the content creator... Rivet.

But what seems to be a thing everyone can agree on is Rivet turning their image around and working closer with the community to not only improve their customer service but taking things on board and making commitments to improving the game. The intentionally burying their head in the sand has got to stop... The community sound like they've put the olive branch out, so now it's time for Rivet to take that opportunity to improve things.

This thread is pretty public and has had a fair response to it, so hopefully Rivet see this and takes the opportunity.

 

I don't think there will be any resolution in this thread as everyone will have their own opinions on Rivet. There was a similar thread a few weeks back and will reiterate what I said there - I don't think Rivet have a great image and I would say their DLC is a real mixed bag. What I would say though is that on balance, TSW would be worse off without Rivet as I feel the game would have a lot less content or variety without their offerings. I'm not defending Rivet but at the same time, I do think some people are out for blood at any chance which, in the last thread, had people basically saying that Rivet shouldn't be allowed to make routes which would sadly put people's livelihoods on the line.

If you think wider, Rivet have done some nice routes for TSC and actually their Swiss offerings on the platform are pretty good. Likewise, I would say that other third party developers have had their fair share of issues. In the case of Just Trains - whilst they may be a bit of a darling for TSW at the moment, and yes, I am looking forward to playing Over Shap once it's on discount (I personally can't justify £33), they have equally put out some shoddy stuff or had some shady practices on TSC - take the Metropolitan line where you are basically triple dipping for the route, the S8 and the enhancement pack - the reviews for their Aylesbury line also have a lot to be desired.. And whilst people are entitled to their opinions and frequently put WCL, Arosa or other Rivet based routes as the worst TSW has to offer, please let's not forget the DB 187 by Skyhook - that thing is atrocious and is far worse than anything that Rivet has put out. Could we have a 3 page thread on the 187 as that thing has languished for years with no care.

I can see both the good and bad in Rivet and I tend to vote with my wallet - I'll buy their routes at the cost I value them at - in all instances they have been on a hefty discount but I know what to expect at that price and my expectations are tempered.

 

Meanwhile in TSC...