I filled in the winter survey yesterday and felt that some of the questions were a little contradicting. In question 11 I choose -Yes - I've not since purchased additional Add-ons. Then the next two questions are about your favourite core route and loco in TSW5. As I have the free starter pack, I don't own any of these. It is not that I would not like them, I probably would and am looking forward to play them. But at the moment I own more DLCs than have time to play, thus did not invest in new content this time. Felt bad choosing the -Did not like any of them option, as it does not represent the true situation. In question 30 it is not possible to choose the same number for multiple options. My feeling of multiplayer is that some sort of open lobby etc. would just cause chaos and performance problems. But I'd love to have one friend to assist me in shunting operations and work as a train guard.
Also thinking about it, why the interrogation about US freight when DTG have stated definitively that the big Class One railroads no longer wish to work with them as regards bringing content into the game? So that leaves the intriguing possibility of historical routes or even fallen flag lines, or even a short line as testified by asking about Railroader/Run 8 style gameplay.
As usual, everything is a big laughable secret at DTG. They never shared any of the findings of the last "survey" they did, and continue to ask about multiplayer, even after stating many times "only a handful of players actually want multiplayer". There's a clear push towards American DLC with the survey as a big chunk of the survey leans heavily towards "tell us what would be great from an American DLC" even after I had selected zero interest in USA DLC earlier on in the survey. Biggest red flag for me is that DTG continue to publish sloppy unfinished DLC and someone is responsible for that, that person needs to be changed now for things to change. As a Senior Manager in retail if I allowed sloppy standards I would be reprimanded (rightly so) and eventually replaced with someone more competent, at DTG there is clearly a very poor hierarchy and accountability is swept under the carpet.
maybe that is the big December surprise - they are adopting US freight again and not only that but vintage?
I think the survey was more to see what people want. US freight is difficult, so lets ask the players for some guidance on what they want. Multiplayer has always been discussed, we have ideas, what does everyone else think. I personally answered the open questions with a lot of words (sorry for the person who has to read that) but I think that if they ask us what we want. why not explain so in some detail instead of saying "make big boy" or something else that is impossibly hard for them. Sure I want steam, and more routes. I personally am not that interested in American stuff or multiplayer as an open lobby. on their post about a new job in the raillroad to implement I'd love to see the dispatcher as it's very varied and not something like a conductor. Did I adress it's going to take a big rework or different approach and gave options? sure, I had the time. I did however mention that they should maybe finish conductor mode working completely first before diving into something new already. I mean how old is conductor mode even, not counting the few scenario's. I would've loved to go all in about all the amazing Dutch and Austrian routes I am thinking of they could build. but they asked us about stuff they want answers on and I suppose in a less chaotic way than some of the forum threads. I suppose a lot of players would like the question "rank all the third party developers" and Rivet would probably end up at the bottom, TSG or JT at the top. would that help anything? no, probably not.
You'd really hope that DTG would know that.... but it makes you wonder sometimes when the same team deliver the same sloppy garbage time after time.
I doubt they are as "blind" as players say. but as most of you know from school or work. you can't just say bye my friends don't like you lol. as said in a thread before, Rivet isn't all garbage and has some good qualities in their products and their team. I agree Fife launched terribly and people already have a bad name for them. but bernina isn't half bad, and them working on announcements as well (yes JT managed it too) is something to note. I'd think they should focus on their strengths like station design, train design and looking at adding new interesting and never done before stuff. Their routes have all but bernina disappointed a lot of people and although you can't keep everyone happy, they really need help with their timetables and willingness to fix bugs and issues. Do they deserve all the hate? well a lot of people are genuinely disappointed or come with good arguments. but I see some posts that are just speculation. Skyhook's 187 is also not great and hated by a lot of people. that doesn't take back they are listening and working great on MML and their cargo addon packs. But however much we all say those opinions. if I were Matt or anyone on the actual dev team. I wouldn't take some of those rivet threads too serious. and even if DTG wants to break off with Rivet. I suppose there is some contract or anything to not make it as simple as just saying goodbye and cancelling all their current projects. or telling them to do better will immediately make them one of the top creators. I think they did well with Berninaline and I hope it's only positively forward from there.
Maybe the repeated question of multiplayer is for them to consider whether its worth implementing. They need the survey so they have an idea of it.
That depends. Does "no longer wish to work with them" only mean they won't give DTG access to facilities for photo references and audio recording, or does it also imply they no longer wish to offer DTG a license to use their brands?
My memory says that multiplayer tended to come in at or near the top of requested features, while VR is always at the bottom. Am I remembering wrong? I thought the problem with multiplayer was that the game would have to be essentially rewritten.
That is a very good point. I mean it is perfectly possible to buy track profile charts etc. quite openly, albeit for a price. There are numerous cab ride videos - for D&RGW, I once had a 4 tape set that covered all the way from Denver to Granby. Unfortunately when VHS went the way of the dodo, so did my tapes and I never bothered repurchasing on DVD or Blu-Ray if they even exist on that format. Also around that time we got Trainmaster 4 which did a reasonable, if primitive by today’s standards, drive from Denver Union up to Winter Park. So, slight digression apart, 90% of the required information is pretty much out there in the public domain which makes it more a case of DTG just being willing to have a go.
Google is our friend, maps, info, photos, etc are available in the public domain. Licenses need to be acquired through negotiations, and perhaps come at a price. Precision drawing are a different challenge, as these need to be acquired from Siemens, GE, Wabco and such. Which might not be easy. Previously, Model Railroader Cyclopedias provided basic drawings, which seem to be the basis for the like of DTM, with the cheapest mail order scale model thrown in. Problem is more like to find local developers familiar with US railroading. A bunch a Brits doing a field trip to some depot and entering a few loco cabs don't cut it. To go by the decline of volunteers willing to spend time, effort and money to develop freeware, be it for MSTS, ORTS, Trainz or any other sim, it will be quite a challenge to assemble a team able to work together in modeling, texturing, scripting and scenario writing. Designing the route, laying track, wiring signals or stringing OHLE, scaping the landscape, decorating it is quite another challenge. Then there is buildings, people, vehicles which differ from country to country, era to era, etc. Only when a solid US based team can be found, I think US DLC can take off on a conveyor, because most locos are like kits and can be cut-copy-pasted together. Only road specific details need to be applied. Will these people work for free, or for a fee and a share of the proceedings? For professionals don't work for free and DLC, be it routes or trains can only sell to the masses for a reasonable price. Christrains for instance, is a professional developer, but his TSC is only a byline. This goes for a few other noted developers too. Creating for a game for a living is only for very dedicated individuals like the owner of Caledonia Works. Given the current prevalence gaming console players enjoying simple commuter runs in the UK and Germany, is there even real demand for more routes like Sand Patch, which originally had some loading/unloading activities. Players like to run fast trains providing action, not spend time switching, coupling, uncoupling and other laborious tasks away from the cab. Will DTG even publish the raw outcome of that 2025 Survey?
I am from the UK and play on an XBOX Series S. Clinchfield Railroad is still about my favourite TSW route of all-time. Maybe hold-off a bit with the stereotypes?
DTG say that the reason they never publish survey results (beyond the occasional drop of a couple of responses) is because other companies making Train Simulators could then use their survey for their benefit. They have said that multiplayer is always the most requested feature (which is why it was omitted a couple of surveys ago) but a multiplayer train simulator would require an entirely new game, so multiplayer is not coming to Train Sim World.
Yes, as I, you and others have said many times. Unfortunately, it just isn't happening with the present regime.
I suspect that the issue is not licensing, which costs the RR no effort and may make them a few pennies, but rather that because of concerns over safety, security and simple disruption the US freight RR aren't inclined to provide research access. I believe DTG put in those questions because they really, really do want to continue producing US freight routes (Matt is a big fan), but aren't sure how to proceed in a way players would find acceptable. NB- I don't think access to locos is as much of a problem, except when it comes to sound surveys. There are plenty available in museums and heritage RR collections- and in many cases blueprints etc. But there's a big difference between trying to reconstruct a route from satellite photos and maps, and actually getting a cab ride (or even a survey-truck ride). What DTG are trying to find out is "How much fictional frog DNA can we include without having a revolt on our hands?" IMHO, the way to go is vintage- especially because they could include reasonably robust passenger timetables, something Amtrak can't provide. An FP9 and rake of stainless streamliner cars would make a nice complement to SD40/F7 freight circa 1965. Alternatively: produce another fairly modern US freight route, using existing rolling stock- but put somebody to work implementing genuine fenced DP on US trains. That would be akin to breaking the sound barrier in terms of realism and immersion. Oh- and even if the local PTC system is out of reach, at least put in cab signaling that works (already done on the NEC and New York routes)
Remember when Sherman Hill had functional cab signals? Pepperidge Farm remembers. EDIT: Also on the topic of US freight, if DTG wants to do another one, they need to look into why some of us hated some of their past stuff, and try not to repeat the same mistakes. This includes not maximizing potential (Cajon Pass), being flat out lazy (UP Heritage Pack), and unrealistic content (ATSF F7, CSX SD40, BNSF SD70ACe).
I thought the survey asked some pretty intelligent questions and I appreciate that DTG wants to know what their audience thinks. People just need to keep in mind that it doesnt work like a Santa wish list.
Just on multiplayer - I think we make it pretty clear in the question it's not something we're considering at the moment, but we're interested in understanding what mechanics you find engaging from other games. So - it's not a 'do you want multiplayer?' question, but more 'what are your favourite characteristics of your favourite multiplayer games?' There may be elements we'd be able to fold in, for example, within the single-player experience. I'm not sure we've said that we wouldn't do freight, or that those avenues have been closed off to us - just that it's proving increasingly challenging getting licenses/reference material in general in the U.S.. A lot of things we'd want to simulate require collaborative relationships - gathering audio, physics details are ones that come to my head immediately.
My apologies, this is a 'pathing' error - I know you've done it now, but would recommend leaving them blank if you come up against that again
Apart from Run8, are there any other train related multiplayer games to take inspiration from? I play Borderlands 3, Forza Horizon and Call of Duty .... Not sure how sharing my favourite multiplayer experiences in those would help or contribute anything towards TSW. Unless TSW5 is getting machine guns and Lamborghini cars in a future update .
Railroader is still in Early access, PC only. Railroads Online is still in Early access, PC only. Simrail is still Early access, PC only. I play on XBOX Series S, and also don't think that taking inspiration from unfinished games is a great idea.
I'd love to do more freight. I put in the questions to specifically give US fans more of a voice about what they want to see and challenge the preconceptions within the team. Speak freely. When it comes to the access issues - it's really not much about the route, we can make a route to a high standard without visiting it if we need to, there's generally enough there to do that. The exterior of locos' you can get *most* of what you need from various photo sites but can't get good close up captures of many small stickers, even so, you can usually find a better photo somewhere else on another loco that looks like its probably the same sticker, or enough detail so that you can actually remake it. Cab interior photos are generally severely lacking - most challenging aspects to find are the floor, the back wall, and the conductors side. Everyone wants to see the engineers desk (and why wouldn't they) but very few record the other important bits. So if we have to make a loco without access, we're often limited to selection of photos that are often mislabeled (it's a BNSF GP38-2! except no... it's a UP one and they've just assumed they're all the same), and if we're really lucky, some excited railfan gets into the exact cab we need, and then flaps the camera phone around at 500 mph to where not one single frame is actually stable enough to see anything useful Side Bar... If you get the opportunity to get in a cab, first, take a breath. Relax. Enjoy the moment. Now ask if it's ok to get some photos or video content and explain what you want to use it for, and make sure that's ok. If it is, relax again. Now take pictures or shoot video, whatever you wish, but do it slowly. Focus on things. Closeups on labels, switches, stickers, pull back to show the whole thing, leave it there for a moment, move the camera slowly. Then say thank you Always make sure you follow instructions from staff and that all actions are approved. Sounds - to get good sounds you need to get microphones wired up to the trains, you can't get good sounds standing still while the train goes by (doppler, which can be fixed, but degrades the quality compared to microphone'd trains). Can't really use a lot of youtube content unless the content creator is exceptionally good (like fanrailer for example) as the amount of noise renders it unusable. Even then, you're somehwat limited in the type of recordings you can get and the speeds etc. We do work with Fanrailer when we can, exceptional content creator and all round solid guy, go watch his youtube videos. Physics - often there's kinda enough info to get a close pass on the physics, even when we visit there's often nobody there who can really answer those questions so that's mostly done through online research. So, answers are: Cab Interior and Sounds are the main challenges without getting access. Last I checked, also rated as the most important things people wanted to see done accurately, as you see one all the time and listen to the other all the time. Most people want modern trains. You won't find them in museums or heritage RR's, and even if they do - that's not much use for sound as you can't go very fast at all (we have the same issue if we need to record something on a preserved line here, it's why it took 3 trips to get Scotsman right). The question is really "do it right or don't do it" vs "i'm flexible in these areas if it is that vs nothing". Nobody is saying "how can we cheap out and save a buck". I don't want to make a product unless it's something that it's something the majority are going to say "hey that's cool, i want that, i can live with those compromises". There's zero point us making a product that's got all fictional audio and faked cabs if you don't want it. The questions are, among other things, trying to get a group consensus on that kinda feedback, because it might open some doors we're currently considering closed. Other questions are related to what types of experiences you all want. I wanted to get some more facts and less beliefs into the discussions being had, so i'm hoping you're all contributing and having your say and telling us what you want to see. The survey is, as always, your opportunity to have meaningful impact on what we do in the future. All your feedback is gratefully received and we'll see what it tells us when everyone's finished giving that to us. Thanks everyone! Matt.
We worded the question intentionally vaguely like that because there very well may be favourite features of how some game works that you're thinking "if it did THIS like THAT game thatd be great". E.g. I really like how easy Wreckfest is at setting up multiplayer games, so that'd be an example i'd share. I don't think they do anything particularly revolutionary, but it's a cited example of a specific thing and how it works, that's useful to know. It could be any mechanic, not just train-related things. "I hate people joining in the middle", "I want to make sure everyone can ready up at the start!" "I really like the moderation facilities in this game" "too much spammy messages from other players" "really fun the way the comms works between players here" - that kinda thing. Matt.
Such a lovely choice of phrasing Vern. Just want to clarify, the US Freight operators have NOT CHANGED their stance, they have never provided any access at all and only provided access to their branding, logos etc. That's always been the case, remains the case, and shows no sign of changing. Why that is? Kinda doesn't matter really. Up to them, I presume they want to focus on running a railroad and not worry about the risks of unnecessary people moving around on their sites. Matt.
My mistake then Matt. I assumed that access had previously been granted to obtain technical details and sound recordings.
IIRC, DTG had plans with Union Pacific before Covid shut down that trip, and nothing has come since. Also, DTG could really just focus on GEVO's atm, between the BNSF ES44C4, and the MPI HSP-46, they have a really good bunch of assets they could reference to at least fill out that part of modern day rosters for Union Pacific and CSX, (On top of the rest of BNSF's GEVO's fleet) The ES44C4 was a decent unit for TSW standards. Really the hard part is cab shots like Matt mentioned earlier. Worth noting there is a preserved AC6000CW at the Lake Shore Railway Museum, Ex-UP, former GE demo unit. Could be worth taking a look, since there is still a lot of "convertible" AC6000CW's on UPs roster (On top of the rebuilds as well). Would just need a new 7FDL-16 sound, instead of reusing the old CSX one.
This s why I suggested vintage. Yes, I know you can't do sound surveys, but you can do intensive photo/video surveys on museum trains. You commented that the bulk of the interest is in "modern," but the dataset is rather limited, isn't it, what with Clinchfield being the only vintage US route, and it being a sort of gameplay which ancient or modern only appeals to a subset of the player base. I wonder how a 1950s or 60s route with all the variety of Over Shap would do?
I wonder- have you tried approaching Wabtech and/or Progress Rail directly? They always have a number of locos on hand, whether in for overhaul, or trade-ins, or retained for test purposes.
I wouldn't read anything specific into the questions, other than a desire to understand more about the wider player base's opinions on various things. I remember the fuss last year when there was a question about subscription models, and suddenly half the forum was filled with posts decrying subscription models and how it was a sign of the beginning of the end, etc etc. As far as I'm aware, in the past year, there hasn't been any move towards a subscription model (I presume because feedback from said survey indicated that there wasn't a strong desire for it, but only DTG would know that for sure). While there are always very... vibrant... discussions going on in this forum, remember most TSW players don't come here - so it's standard and responsible behaviour from DTG to try to capture as many views from the whole playerbase, and to ask questions that may or may not have been topics of discussion previously here.
I said for my new US content a Big Boy running up Sherman Hill. I’m not betting on it being listened to!
Subscription model is very much a thing, although for now only for TSC: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2939280/Train_Simulator_Classic_Rail_Subscription/ I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the "large revelation" for 20 December. It's very expensive to get into TSW as a new player, but it would also be absolutely horrible move angering all those who already invested in dozens of expensive DLCs.
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Really 100% agree on this one! I don't visit here often, but I have noticed a really negative atmosphere in this forum. Whatever DTG does, there is someone telling that it's completely garbage. I was actually surprised that there was not already a thread about this survey being all wrong and useless. The people that are happy enough with their game, or are not so passionate rail fans, do not come here. It is nice that there are people here that really work in the rail industry or have local knowledge and that they can point out problems in the game. I'm sure that helps improving the product and provide us all with a better experience. I welcome every upgrade to the game that enhances the level of immersion and realism available, but understand that there are limits to how much time and effort can be put to details. I bet we all would also love to have an one-to-one copy of our local railway line in the game, me too (Turku-Toijala-[Tampere] route, please), but that's just not gonna happen and being all grumpy about it is not very constructive. Not directed towards anyone at this thread, but a general feeling of the vibes at DTG forums... Maybe I'm mostly happy with the game as I've not seen any of the routes in real life nor driven a locomotive? The thirst for detail and more trains we have, can never be fulfilled, but lets help DTG and affiliates bring us good content to enjoy and share our passion here without all the hate.
I put something along the lines of revisiting steam so that it works as intended, with a view to making some US steam one day...
in the survey i mentioned in US NA ,I defiantly want to see improvement s to freight also bring back freight oriented routes its a must ,needs to be more balance of freight and passenger content ..routes new locomotives add new freight cars ..i would like more retro stuff like 1960s 70s 80s 90s etc Penn Central Chessie B&O WM PRR Nyc BN etc ..plus add more enguagement to freight like switching setting out picking up along the way runs just have variety of services that should appeal to most tastes.
Some of the questions seem to hint at exploring the options adding gameplay along the lines of running a business/company, picking routes, buying locos etc... I kinda hope they stay away from that. There are games out there that do that and are fun but what I like about TSW is that you hop in the game and have access to a full timetable of real life services and can hope into any train thats in the game that the real life company operates on that route. Comparing to other transportation games like for example Tourist Bus Simulator, one of the things I hated right off the bat is that you need to run the company, buy buses, plan out routes, hire and schedule drivers, etc.
I can imagine. I guess ETS2/ATS has a quite fine system somewhere in between, where there's a bit of economy to worry about (although mods can make your life really easy), running a company is possibly but totally optional. It's there if you want to, but if you just like the driving experience, that's possible too.
Agreed; Railroader already does that quite well. Besides, the whole DTG edge (real life branding and routes) would go by the wayside.
I mentioned that too. Surely there's a clever programmer out there DTG could hire to un-bollix the situation. Conceptually Simugraph can handle just about any engineered land transport system; the issue is the complex interations that go into steam power-- but there are people who understand those.
