There was a thread about not having enough North American and Freight content in game, and rather than derail (no pun intended) that thread, I wanted to address the bigger issue here as I see it. First, the original issue To be fair, there's not been a lot of DLC for North America except for a bump in 2021. It's usually just 1 or 2 a year. 2017 Sand Patch 2018 NEC, LIRR 2019 Peninsula, 2020 Oakville 2021 Clinchfield, Cane Creek, Boston Sprinter, Sherman Hill 2022 Harlem, Horseshoe, Cajon Pass 2023 NEC (NY), Antelope 2024 LIRR (update) , San Bernadino, MBTA 17 routes in 8 years is roughly 2 per year. You had 3 last year, so it might only be 1. That's just how it's been for NA in the game. I'm not shocked a UK company is developing stuff for a majority UK audience. (Europe comes second) It would be nice to have sales figures to say why, but I did find it interesting you can search on Steam for most popular downloads. For TSW, the highest sellers are Place Title 2528th Expert BR 101 3101 Smmeringbahn 3387 MBTA Commuter 3472 Frankfurt Fulda 3507 Preston Carlisle 3931 Berninalinie 4175 Tharanter Rampfe Dresden 4249 Fife Circle 4480 Rosenheim 4549 DB BR 111 + Wagen 4725 London Overground 4883 Blackpool Branches 5293 Glossop Line 5433 Edinburgh-Glasgow 5551 Niddertalbahn 5702 Koblenz 5893 Koln-Aachen 6018 158 Sprinter 6317 193 Vectron 6493 WCML 6439 LIRR 6456 LGV 6616 Haupstrecke Munchen 6683 Kassel-Wurzberg 6710 Maintalbahn 6731 Midland Mainline 6750 Class 380 6919 Class 390 6989 Arosaline 7113 San Bernadino In fact there's only 3 in the top 30 TSW routes that are North American, and you have to go into the Top 40 to find any big freight routes (Horseshoe Curve) MBTA can have layered freight in as a bonus, but it's still made as a commuter route. Now this doesn't include console sales obviously, but it does give you a rough idea of popularity by sales. Timeline? Again... modern except the two from Just Trains which DTG doesn't control. (Niddertalbahn is still relatively modern) They are making what people seem to buy. It's not just the newer stuff too. Rosenheim is a TSW 2 title, Koblenz and Edinburgh are TSW 3. Modern British and European commuter routes with mostly one-handle EMUs. Not North American. Not freight. Not older stuff. Not saying you can't find stuff to put on those routes, but even that DLC isn't being bought according to Steam, so it looks like the EMUs rule the roost. I suspect, even if I don't have the numbers here that it's even more biased for console players given how much younger and urban they are than the average PC user. Now, on the bright side, if you look through the TSC catalog, it's quite the opposite. If you look at the releases there you an find older, freight and US content. The playerbase is different, the sales are different, so the developers are different. Interesting, it also drove home just how unpopular DLC is for this game. While TSW is around 200 in popularity, DLC is down in the thousands. So the vast majority of people just buy TSW and play what they got in the game packs. So, again if that's the case then it's also smart to reach out to people with cool game packs since very few people actually buy DLC compared to those that get the original game. And if you compare it to flight sims, a "realistic" flight simulation like Digital Combat Simulator (DCS) is pretty far down the list too at around 200 as well, but their DLC sells better. Their top five DLC sellers are around the 1,000th mark, as opposed to the 3,000s for the comparable TSW content. Now compare that to Microsoft Flight Simulator which is "sim lite" ta around 90th in sales, and you see that selling to the "casuals" makes a lot more money. I'm not advocating going that "casual" route in general. TSW makes decent money for what it is selling to the console-based, young EMU crowd. (Although that is admittedly often the "casual" crowd of train sims) What I'm simply saying is that DTG orient to sell to their player base..... while building new player base at the same time. Lots of "grey beards" here (and I admit I'm one of them) So, I don't realistically expect much North American, Freight or Older content that won't sell. Passion projects like Just Trains and such, but not to pay the bills. Those need to be done to make sales, and we can see what sells. The Thomas thing is capitalizing on that "buy one on a whim" that MOST TSW owners are proven to be. If 90% of your fan base is people that buy and forget, then you want that ONE sale. Thomas can do that.... but also the kids into trains become adults into trains. Not accepting them would be like kicking kids out of your toy train shop. It's foolish in the long run. They are the future of the hobby. Being a single player game you won't SEE them in game, so it has no real impact on you if there's a Thomas DLC for WSR or not. It's not different than there being a "Railtour" DLC for WSR when you only like diesels. They will never show up on your WSR unless you download them. As for the forums, I had a post deleted for saying "taking the p!$$" (having a joke) as it was "vulgar language." I thought it was a common saying and not vulgar at all, but apparently that was enough, so thinking you have to "hold your language" is just silly. The forum is already moderated. You might bore kids with stories of the "old Class 55s" is possible but you aren't going to shock them. =-) (Not sure if they can even get on the forum age-wise, but I suppose their parents can, and many of the kids will be the kids of TSW veterans) If anything, I think you could have the chance to TEACH any newcomers about the history of trains, since they won't HAVE any knowledge, and Thomas is a STEAM ENGINE, so maybe it'd encourage TSW to do more STEAM stuff? (Most of the stock in Thomas is from over 50-100 years ago from what I've seen) I'm not well versed in trains enough to give a lecture on any of them, but as a trained historian I know the value of teaching the youth. You can also shape them by introducing them to things. (Not brainwashing) and this is a great way to do it. I know a guy down the road who runs a train museum in his warehouse. (Yeah, it's an old warehouse, so it's massive) and has school groups come through to pass on his knowledge and passion. That's what EVERYONE should be doing with the opportunity here. I love the mini history lessons here we get from those on the forum. It's fascinating to me. There's so much to SHARE out there that will die with us unless we get it out. Now back to the original topic.... we have sort of created our own problem with expectations and insulation. If the only exposure people have to OTHER types of content they don't normally see (NA, Freight, older stuff, steam) is social media, we lose. The kids who only see trains as EMUs between cities will likely never see the other sides of trains. They need to be exposed to the diversity of different styles and histories. This isn't DTG's "job" as their "job" is to make content that sells and keeps them in business to keep making anything. Bankrupt companies aren't useful. No, as a forum/community we should welcome new people in and introduce them to new stuff. Not beat them over the head, but be open and SHOW them new things. Be a mentor, but an adversary. So what you like steam? So what you like UK stuff? They might be a German kid and you can bond over German steam. Or suggest fun freight runs or the 363 as a neat side project. Introduce people to things and give them a chance. Don't just reject the "younger folks" and that even comes to their background. I was too old for Thomas to be a thing from my childhood, but it's IMPORTANT to them. It's what GOT them into trains, even those who are in their TWENTIES now. So it's not all "kids" for some it's nostalgia. They grew up with Thomas like you grew up with a "Whistler" passing your house as a kid. Many of those kids didn't grow up near steam trains. They were long gone, but they know THOMAS as a figure from their childhood, so use that as a way to relate to them. "Did you know Thomas was a Class x-Y-Z"? I don't remember. Thomas isn't my thing. My point is that the characters in the show are based on REAL engines so that's a natural opening. And they're not just steam, but also Class 47, Class 04, Class 40, Class 101, etc. That's BR stuff they're familiar with! "Wanna drive the REAL Class 101 in game?" I don't think people realize the opportunity we have here. And yes, I'm back on the Thomas thing, but it's a symbol of opportunity not a threat. It's not "destroying" TSW. It's a chance for you on the forum to reach out to young people and SHARE with them. Pass on your knowledge. Share your interests. Point them to "better" DLC. The way that relates to the OP is that it's through this shaping of market preferences that you can make a difference. As I said, it's a very SMALL market, so pointing a few dozen or hundred people to some of the non-modern, non-EMU content would mean sales go up and we'd see more of it. It's only that by default because many of the kids don't KNOW of anything else. How can you blame them for not knowing all that's out there? If that's all they've been exposed to, then that's all they know. People have a habit of assuming the rest of the world is like them, and a kid who only ever rode on a I dunno, a 101 out of Frankfurt is now coming into the game thinking that's the whole world of trains. Just similar trains on similar tracks. Then they come here... and you can show them it's a HUGE world with a DIVERSE history. You have that power to do something about what we get in game just by talking to new people. Ranting about what some DTG conspiracy isn't helpful. Grumping is pointless. It changes nothing. It just gets you disappointed and angry. Talking to people to change perspectives and broaden their horizons does. Yes I'm talking as a teacher and historian, but that's what I sincerely believe.
So far as US freight is concerned, there are the known licensing and access problems. Plus anyone serious about it is going to have Run 8 installed alongside TSW. Though ironically, Run 8 does not feature much in the way of older content and they have never attempted to bring a steam loco into the game even though as 3D Trainstuff they created several for MSTS. More casual players are probably using Railroader.
I'm not aware of any licensing problems with BNSF, UP , NS or Amtrak. And besides, DTG have plenty of locos and route information in their back catalog. If they wanted to they could build a route like Sand Patch tomorrow and stock it with appropriate locos and wagons. I mean they're placing freight locos in commuter routes and, if HIS can build a game pack, DTG surely can. Talk all they want but the truth is they don't want to do US freight. End of story. Why they don't build some Amtrak train sets and let us play them where we want is another conundrum. I'm sure they would be big sellers. The whole North American thing is an enigma. Go figure. I suppose when you get down to brass tacks, they can sell more toy trains than American freight locos.
Are you familiar with US track charts? Genuine question. If you're lucky you'll get a symbol to tell you that a signal is an absolute or controlled, but you will get absolutely no information at all about the number of heads or the aspects displayed - each and every signal will have to be individually considered by whoever is putting the signal links on the route. Sometimes it is straightforward and there are good head end videos both ways, sometimes Streetview helps, sometimes you just have a black circle and a mileage reference on a track chart. Most of the route information I've seen on the "S Drive"[1] for American routes is a black circle and a mileage reference. That's it. Nothing else. [1] that's where all the operating and route information is stored, if it exists.
They ignore the fact its optional and not required to play TSW5 just so they can complain for the sake of it.
Appreciate the response. So how are freight routes being built currently in TSC, for instance? And commuter routes in TSW with some freight components and service layers? Plus why would the route information for say, Soldier Summit, not exist. Surely it's not discarded or not kept securely. Maybe I'm in left field here. I'd genuinely like to know. Edit: Yes, I know DTG have access to MBTA, MTA and Metrolink., so scratch that. It's freight that I'm interested in.
Why do you ignore what I presented and keep saying "it's an enigma?" On what grounds do you say that it's a mystery? Just assuming for no reason that DTG is operating irrationally for no purpose? Is that easier for you to believe than the truth...that North American freight just isn't that popular in the TSW player base? Not everything is a conspiracy or irrational. The data seems to fit simple reasonable business decisions that you don't happen to personally like. I am a fan of NA freight too, but I can also realize that I'm in the minority and the game isn't focused on what I want. It's not a mystery. It's just a truth to accept. Now you can positively work to change those perceptions of other players.... or just passively assume that you're right, everyone "really" thinks like you do and DTG is guilty of some huge "conspiracy" to keep NA freight out of their game for some nefarious unknown reason. You're an adult. You can reason better than that.
I don't think it's about sales figures. It's about economy. It seems they need more effort to do an american freight route in the american prairie and the mountains. So if that route selles as an UK one the income to cost ratio is not so good. On the other side you can read here in this forum that Searchlight Simulations (they made great north american freight stuff for TSC) offered DTH to work as 3rd party. But DTG doesn't react properly.
Which is the same thing in the end. Yes sales are half of the equation (costs the other part) but it boils down to the same thing. How much net profit do you get? I don't know the gossip on Searchlight Simulations, no. It doesn't really effect what i was saying though since DTG doesn't finance third parties. They just host content and take piece of the profit. It doesn't cost DTG to develop the third party content. Part of the issue with third party content is (again) the audience you're selling it to. TSC players tend to buy more NA freight and older content. So, a third party is logically going to make more routes for TSC. I don't know how much more or less work it takes to make a route in either, but even if it's the same amount of work, selling less units mean less profit from less sales. I'd guess since there's more to TSW that it takes more work to develop TSW routes given the extra technology and hurdles of converting to consoles too, etc. Again, I dunno but it's a safe bet that it's not cheaper to do TSW routes rather than TSC, and if your audience tends to be on TSC.... why bother making stuff for TSW? I applaud those who DO like Just Trains, but it's out of passion not to profit. (And those still aren't NA freight routes...) On the other side of the coin, the license for Thomas the Tank Engine is basically guaranteed to print money for relatively little work and it brings a lot more players into the game for the future.
Trainz Simulator will come to consoles. And it seems it has interesting American freight and steam stuff. But okay american steam and freight isn't profitable.
I can't comment on the current workflow, but when I did TS1 stuff it was: 1. try and find a track chart. 2. try and find a head end video. 3. see if you can work out the signal rules. 4. see if you can work out the signal heads. So - taking in reverse order: 4. is now far more difficult (which also ties in with 3 a bit) as there are what we call "Vaders" in use - which is a fair name with the similarity to Dart Vader's helmet. Unlike searchlights (which very rarely had suppressed aspects) all you can really tell from a Vader head if you can't see it lit up is if it's either 2 light or 3 light. You can normally find an aspect chart that says "these are all the inidications that can be used on this railroad", but you'll not find almost ever (unless you get lucky and there's an accident report) and I really DO mean almost ever any details of the specific lights in use at a specfic location written down anywhere: that's why you've got to hope for a head end video. With a head end video you can have a pretty good guess at the order of aspects from top to bottom and with google earth and or a track chart you can work out the radius of the curve. So you've got a "pool" of information for each signal that has been separately guessed or worked out - the signal references in a track chart will tell you where a signal is, but very, very rarely what the indications are - the old semaphore style charts (I have quite a few) would be far more explicit - but not when you've just got a circle on a stick with a signal reference that could be a mileage reference or just some abstract number in a sequence. Each road has slightly different signal rules and each signal has to be guessed by someone on the signalling side. What route information? Now in that sense of "what information" I'm not commenting on "what type of information", I'm more saying "What exists?", "Does any exist?" - if it is a previously looked-at route by DTG we might be lucky and there's a file of geolocated pins sat on one of the dev's computers and if you're really lucky those geolocated pins have a signal description attached to them, but more often than not there's nothing at all, because there is nothing at all to start from. It would be impossible to document every signal: well, more particularly it would be nearly impossible to document every decision/reason why Signal X looks like Signal X in game - the vast, vast, vast majority of route information is probably in the person's head who put the signals into the route because it just does not exist anywhere else at all. At most you get a single circle on a stick with a reference or you get an X in a circle without a reference. That's it. If you want I'll try and dig out a picture to show you tomorrow (I'm not on the right machine to find that stuff right now). No, I don't think you're in left field here; but perhaps you don't appreciate (or were unaware) that the documentation is either incredibly sparse or non-existent. Yes, honestly. Sat where I am now, I can put my hands on every single speed signalling notice issued for New Zealand, most of Victoria and nearly all of New South Wales. If it was somewhere in those locations I could find the information, and a chain of information virtually from when the line was built to almost the current day - North America/Canada not so at all - far, far more difficult. Now, that's not to say I don't enjoy doing a North American or Canadian speed-signalled layout but finding the documentation over here in the UK is very, very difficult - yes - I've got contacts (and contacts that are long standing from before I started doing signalling here) but the fact remains that information is so totally non-existent. It just isn't there. Even among my contacts, they often have better information to hand than the railway authorities themselves. I hope that makes sense - there isn't an anti-freight feeling (or if there is, such as I am I've never picked up on it), it's just that getting it right requires effort and a lot of research compared to other lines/other countries. Not saying that signals are the be-all and end-all, but if there are any signals each one has to be guessed/implemented and given a reality check - "Is this appropriate, will it work according to the rules of the railroad, are the speeds across the crossovers correct" There are people local to the area that can help in research for those lines - that makes a significant difference. I hope that response helps.
You tell me. I'm only relating what it's like for a DTG dev to do a US freight route, I can't speak for the others (and I haven't experienced the others so I can't say anything about accuracy/fitness).
I didn't say not possible to do. You can do it. Just not make much money on it. Passion projects are definitely a thing. But few are on console, and none single player as far as I know while they don't make much money. Comparing Railroads Online or Run 8 to TSW isn't really applicable. TSW has it's own niche market and it'll take a lot of work to change it. Although if you want to do those other games you're free to as well.
