How Do Train Drivers Avoid Highway(railway) Hypnosis?

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by denizmert, Jan 4, 2025.

  1. denizmert

    denizmert Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2022
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    Highway hypnosis is defined as a mental state on very long, straight and lonely highways where you don't have to steer, brake or accelerate much so your brain goes on autopilot and you have no memories of the immediate past. This can cause you to react much more slowly to sudden events such as a person or animal walking down the road compared to if you were not in "hypnosis."

    This all sounds familiar on the railroad, especially with long distance freight traffic at night, where you may not get stops, adverse signals or speed restrictions for long periods of time. Of course there is the vigilance device, but pressing that pedal itself can become automatic in your brain. Especially on British routes where upcoming speed limits are not indicated by signals, how do drivers avoid getting hypnotized and derailed by speeding? This seems to be less of a problem on passenger trains with constant stopping and accelerating, but on freight trains it sounds like it could be really hypnotic. At least in Germany it would be stopped by the 1000Hz if it does not recognize the upcoming speed restriction. SPAD is probably much less likely in both places because both yellow and red will get his attention after he is hypnotized by a hundred green signals in a row, on top of AWS/PZB emergency brake. And in the US, hypnosis is much less likely because there are two blokes in the cab.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  2. MaxBenchip

    MaxBenchip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2023
    Messages:
    628
    Likes Received:
    1,334
    I don't really know, but I do know that the window on the Eurostar E300 (Class 373/TMST) are smaller than usual because of how long the drivers are in the Channel Tunnel, to avoid an hypnosis. class-373-eurostar-train-GCM0YG.jpg
     
  3. jack#9468

    jack#9468 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2023
    Messages:
    5,621
    Likes Received:
    6,507
    When I'm driving in TSW I often find I'm talking to myself. I recite landmarks, my braking points, even what notch of power I'm in and such. That and the AWS/DSD going off keep me alert enough to know whats going on. The more I know a route (or any particular section of one), I find myself reciting my knowledge on it the more I drive it.

    I'd imagine real life drivers do something similar.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  4. parder#4923

    parder#4923 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2024
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    243
    I think a lot of it comes down to the recruitment and training process to avoid that potential problem. Though the technological aides for drivers in the can have also developed to help them.

    Also as jack suggests there is a lot more to route learning to keep your mind occupied as you don't have a HUD to fall back on like in the game. This means there is a greater need to be looking carefully at all signs and signals, referring to your schedule, remembering your route knowledge for when to make acceleration and/or braking adjustments (particularly for stopping) as well as potential communication with the guard and signaller. That's even before being aware of all the different systems on the train are functioning properly - not just traction and braking, but all the TMS features, PIS, air conditioning, etc.

    From watching clips of cab videos, even when a driver is using AFB or cruise control on long fast intercity routes their hands are on the throttle/brake at all times. It's part of why I like playing on console as you similarly have a controller in your hands the whole time. Your route/loco knowledge (particularly of upcoming gradients) is constantly needed for how much power to apply to ensure absolutely no speeding even when cruise control is in operation (usually aiming for a 5kmh buffer).
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2025
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Peter Smith

    Peter Smith Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    22
    Driver alert/Sifa keeps you awake and re-focusses one, to some extent I suppose.
     
  6. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    3,253
    Likes Received:
    4,302
    Part of the recruitment process for the Tyne and Wear Metro is (or was) they have to watch a plain grey screen. After (I think) 10 minutes, the screen will suddenly change red and they measure the reaction times.
     
  7. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2020
    Messages:
    16,474
    Likes Received:
    33,189
    I would imagine exercise peripheral vision when safe to do so, glance at the gauges and controls. As mentioned there is the aptitude evaluation during recruitment and training and the various DSD/vigilance devices. In Japan, I believe drivers are actually encouraged to state out loud the aspects of upcoming signals and speed restrictions too.

    And yes, I must admit there have been occasions when doing a slow US freight haul or even something fast on a UK route, I have found myself nodding then startling back to alertness.

    Not usually a problem when driving the car, as generally I have the wife sat next to me nagging or rabbiting. Which actually in itself be a distraction particularly at a complex or busy roundabout or junction. Telling her to stop the rabbiting for a minute, then usually brings forth the nagging!
     
    • Like Like x 4
  8. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    2,261
    In the UK the aptitude assessments which form part of the selection process to become a train driver can only be successfully completed by people with a particular ability to maintain concentration while carrying out repetitive tasks for long periods of time. The vast majority of people fail these assessments. It is only a small proportion of people who have the necessary aptitude.

    Most UK train companies nowadays train Drivers in some form of risk-triggered commentary driving. That is to say, Drivers are trained to verbalise (say out loud) the key things to which they must respond - signal aspects (when any aspect other than green), speed restrictions, station stops, train length when approaching the station stop etc.

    Some elements of risk-triggered commentary driving are prompted by the AWS. So each time you press the button to acknowledge (cancel) the AWS, you then say out loud what the AWS is warning you of (the signal aspect, or speed restriction). In some cases Drivers are trained to expand on that to emphasise its significance. E.g “Yellow - next signal red” or “Red - stop”.

    Some companies also train Drivers to point at certain items such as signals, car stop markers and in-cab train length reminders.

    All of this is to help prevent lapsing into auto-pilot and failing to react in the correct way, and many Drivers find them useful tools. None the less, there is no magic solution, and avoiding the lapse of concentration which results in an operational incident remains difficult. Many of us will have experienced that when playing TSW - so imagine doing the same thing for up to 12 hours a day, 4-5 days a week, while working different shifts constantly messing up your sleep patterns, without having a single lapse. It’s not for everyone!
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  9. FredElliott

    FredElliott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2022
    Messages:
    1,379
    Likes Received:
    2,544
    Sounds like waiting for TSW to load
     
    • Like Like x 8
  10. noir

    noir Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    I don't think it's that much prevalent, because there is usually a lot happening around you, curves, speed changes, incline changes, occasional passenger stop that you need to focus on even as a freight driver, railway crossings, call from a dispatcher, animals around the tracks..

    Some safety systems suppress vigilance systems on permissive signalling and only request random confirmation in longer randomised intervals between 1.5-3 minutes, I feel like that's actually doing better job in waking you up than mechanically releasing the sifa pedal every fifteen seconds.

    You'll have much more issues of this type on monotonous straight high speed lines with little to no change outside, but there you often have some sort of automated control nowadays, and it will be probably first place to be equipped with ETCS as well.

    You can call out signals and signs aloud (often you are required to when they are restrictive), that helps with focusing on looking instead of just zoning out.

    Adverse signals will usually wake you up as well because they stick out of the routine (one of the reasons why autoblocks are turned off in opposite direction, so you see yellow only rarely), more problematic are probably speed signs, but if you know the route well enough to be zoning out on it, you also know well enough where the speed reductions are.
     
  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    12,640
    Likes Received:
    19,345
    Easier approach would be a combination of Taco Bell with no onboard toilet.
     
  12. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2022
    Messages:
    2,298
    Likes Received:
    2,483
    The purpose of the famous "point and call" system used in Japan is to avoid this.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. queran#9752

    queran#9752 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2024
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    3
    Germany has adopted a similar system to this, in where Train Drivers are encouraged to call out any sign or signal they pass to keep up concentration
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Melanie

    Melanie Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2023
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    39
    There are simply too many La's to get hypnotized ;)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. ididntdoit

    ididntdoit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2023
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    682
    Every train I've used in tsw and the real world, requires constant interaction with something or other. Aws, alerter, sifa, maintaining the balance between acceleration or braking. Stopping at stations etc... I don't see how one can lose concentration?
    They do test your ability to concentrate, thoroughly in driver training. So if you are the type of person that drifts off into a dream world constantly, you fail to become a driver.
    I would say that train driving is an activity that naturally keeps you alert.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. Midnight

    Midnight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2018
    Messages:
    981
    Likes Received:
    1,813
    The problem is that real-life trains don't have a decent stereo system.

    In TSW5, I have an endless supply of Drum & Bass, 1980s remixes, Synthwave, Euphoric Trance, and a very good pair of Bose headphones. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2025
    • Like Like x 1
  17. R3DWolf91

    R3DWolf91 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2022
    Messages:
    677
    Likes Received:
    966
    In the US, train crews will call out signal aspects, and some will radio in their location and signal indications at major interlockings and CP's (Control Points).

    In Japan, I've noticed crews are taught to physically point and call out signals and points of important information.
     
  18. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2019
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    1,056
    The correct term used on the railway is driver underload. Train driving is generally extremely boring especially when you consider that most train drivers in the UK only drive 1/2 classes of traction and only operate on 1/2 different routes coupled with the fact that modern trains are very easy to drive and are very comfortable meaning it is the ideal conditions to sleep.

    Non-Technical Skills have become very big in the railway industry to overcome these challenges. Some techniques include the following which are all from the official RSSB toolkit guide:

    • Risk triggered commentary (RTC)
    • Highlighting your diagram/train list
    • Standing up and driving
    • Opening cab window
    • Turning air conditioning to slightly cool temperature
    • Chewing gum
    • Having a drink or a snack
    • Company initiatives such as the SouthEastern “three step check” or Avanti “pause for doors”
    • Testing your route knowledge as you go along a route
    • Testing your route knowledge/Risk triggered commentary but speaking in a different language or accent

    Ultimately, it is a personal thing so what could work for one person may not work for another. And it can also backfire because if it becomes habitual, such as RTC then it loses its effectiveness and can put you at risk.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  19. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2019
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    1,056
    That was the theory at the time that high speed through overhead wire territory could cause a hypnotic effect hence why Class 373s were built with small windows. This was later proven to be untrue hence why Class 374s and other high speed units have gone back to normal sized windows.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  20. FredElliott

    FredElliott Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2022
    Messages:
    1,379
    Likes Received:
    2,544
    That could get confusing using German, with AWS becoming RVS
     
  21. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2017
    Messages:
    3,595
    Likes Received:
    9,122
    Not really. Point and call is not for this problem. It's to increase awareness, sure. But it's not like you would have the time to get "bored" on japanese railways with their frequent stopping patterns, constant curves and elevation changes and always changing speed limits.
     
  22. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2022
    Messages:
    2,298
    Likes Received:
    2,483
    When you're driving the same route day after day I think you'd be surprised! If your argument is true then no one would go on "autopilot" on narrow country roads - but I know from personal experience that they absolutely do.
     
  23. kaarealmighty

    kaarealmighty Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2020
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    145
    I am almost certain that I've developed some sort of ptsd-version from tsw if I was ever to become a train operator. On commuters, micro managing the speed to avoid exceeding the speedlimit and losing ap points while at the same time keeping the speed as close to max to stick to the schedule. After 700 hours of TSW I am almost certain I'd be thinking of ap points and penalties if I ever was to operate real trains! :D
     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. samuelpower2001

    samuelpower2001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    567
    A question I have is; if I can reset aws, vigilance etc within time to avoid emergency brake application, will I be okay to do psychometric tests?
     
  25. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    2,261
    Not necessarily. Psychometric tests aren't really about reaction times. You can try examples of some of the types of test used, though. There are plenty online. For example, one of the most well-known tests is the Group Bourdon (often referred to as 'the dots'). There's an example you can try here.

    I'd love to tell you my score, but I got bored and couldn't be bothered to finish. That's how I know I wouldn't be a good train driver...
     
    • Like Like x 3
  26. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2022
    Messages:
    2,298
    Likes Received:
    2,483
    I do wonder if these tests actually measure anything useful...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. denizmert

    denizmert Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2022
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    How much info do real drivers see on their displays like the Ebula and such? Even if they can't see the upcoming signal aspects(which should be trivial with today's technology, but many aspects of railroad operation is still jurassic) like we can in TSW, they can at least see the upcoming speed restrictions?

    I wonder when will we get a completely full fidelity locomotive or MU in TSW, compared to PMDG in flight sims for example. Something we can simulate practically everything a real driver does on the line without exceptions. I think Zusi is pretty much that but since its graphics are from the 80s, it's not that exciting.
     
  28. samuelpower2001

    samuelpower2001 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2020
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    567
    I think they measure a lot of things.

    Short term memory is one. With the test where have to recall the image.

    The one where have to press button deals with reaction times.

    Then some other stuff. Deals with the qualities of the job.
     
  29. dr1980

    dr1980 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    107
    Imagine operating a train on the Trans-Australian Railway, longest section of straight track in the world at 297 miles.
     
  30. jack#9468

    jack#9468 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2023
    Messages:
    5,621
    Likes Received:
    6,507
    They're designed to measure your concentration, reaction times, whether or not you can distinguish different sounds, as well as testing alertness and hand coordination, plus anything else I may have missed. All of which are crucial to train driving.
     
  31. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    168
    Train driving can be extremely monotonous.
    Making sure we are well rested is a big thing.
    I find I perform and concentrate much better after a good night's sleep naturally but getting up at 3am is still a struggle lol.
    Commentary driving is a common technique we use to keep focused.
    Unfortunately it's just a bit of a boring job at times but the trains you work and the routes you drive can dictate just how much.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  32. denizmert

    denizmert Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2022
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    41
    What happens when you suddenly get called up(let's say the scheduled driver called in sick) and you couldn't sleep well?
     
  33. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    168
    You mean if we are spare I assume?
    When you sign on you are signing to say you are well rested and fit for duty.
    That includes sitting spare all day.
    If you don't feel fit enough to be at work then you shouldn't be.
    If an incident happens and you then turn around and say it's because you were tired then it's not going to go down well.
    Not having enough sleep and being tired aren't the necessarily the same thing.
    Getting up at 3am isn't a natural position for your body to be in so regardless of how well you sleep you'll probably still feel tired at that time in the morning to some degree. That's why you'll see most drivers with a coffee or something caffeine based most of the time lol
    That doesn't mean you aren't fit enough to do your job though but ultimately the buck stops with the driver.
    If you don't feel like you are fit enough to be at work then you need to make the call not to come in.
    If they cancel the service then so be it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2025
  34. noir

    noir Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2020
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Doesn't matter if it's electronic ebula or a paper book, but drivers in europe have the route layout in front of them, with all speed restrictions and location of all stations. Signals and aspects are generally not available to the driver, but some national safety systems have that as part of their functionality indirectly (you see your live path plan for few km ahead without caring about individual signals, like with LZB or ETCS) or directly (aspect repeaters and in-cab signalling systems like MIREL).

    You don't, there are dedicated people to be a backup planned within the shift schedule. You have a backup shift planned and either you get assigned particular shift a day ahead when covering a colleague with longer absence, or you make it to some larger station and sit there until you are needed for ad-hoc backup.

    Coffee, energy drinks and more coffee.
     
  35. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    3,253
    Likes Received:
    4,302
    Would you not get disciplined for that?
     
  36. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,058
    Likes Received:
    2,261
    No, management encourage Drivers to say if they are not feeling fit to drive a train. It’s better to cancel a train than have an accident. Obviously if it happened repeatedly your manager would want to discuss with you what you could do differently to avoid it (e.g. things to help you get better sleep) but it would not be a disciplinary matter.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  37. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    168
    As above they expect us to speak up if there's an issue, obviously you don't want it to become a habit but if there an underlying issue they will try and help normally.
     
  38. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    3,253
    Likes Received:
    4,302
    Where I work (won't say), they also encourage you to phone in if you're too tired, but they'll try their best to stop you and you can bet it'll lead to a disciplinary as it'll go down as unauthorised absence (2 in a 6 month period is enough).

    It might not but no one's willing to try it.
     
  39. matt#4801

    matt#4801 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2022
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    10,124
    I think the 'textbook' answers have already been mentioned, so I am not going to repeat anything, for both your sake and mine, but what I will say is (and sorry if it has been mentioned) giving myself a running commentary of my location (rather than the actions I am taking and the aspects of signals/approaching PSRs, etc), in comparison to a main road which runs within a few miles of the route for the length I sign. As a lad, before I joined the railways my interest were always with roads so I also know by heart the routes which intersect this main road and so use this to keep my mind focused on where I am which then keeps my mind from wandering to other things. Another thing I always do to make sure I am concentrated all day is having a nice filling breakfast and not be relying on coffee to keep me awake, though I will have a nice cuppa to soothe my tastebuds. Of course as mentioned a good night sleep is just as important.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page