Hello, I was curious as to why so many people are requesting for underground lines to be added. I thought that its all moreorless the same seeing as it is underground. I do not want to come across as if I think any less of wanting to drive underground lines, just curious
I personally wish to see one or 2 specific subway lines from Berlin in TSW since I am just so familiar with them and some of the trains that run there. Most subway trains have a high acceleration rate which is one of the key points that make such a line fun to drive.
I'm not looking forward to long underground lines. Bakerloo gets boring after a few station stops. I think a shorter underground section of a route, like the few underground stations Rapid Transit offers, would be a more enjoyable drive. There's just more scenery to enjoy when above ground.
Lots of people ride the Underground. Who wouldn’t want to be able to drive a route they use every single day? And also it’s not just the route, but the trains too. Subway trains are cool. Having them in-game would be cool.
There is a certain fascination with underground/tube/subway routes. The only reason I don’t play Bakerloo more in TSW is the distorted AP with something like 22k points for a run from E&C to Harrow. But a decent Northern Line, Central Line or District/Metropolitan Line particularly set back a few years would be Day One for me. Some of the most popular routes in the old BVE were the London tube ones which were done and New York Subway, though as we know DTG continue to rule out the latter due to the operator refusing access for research to depict their routes in a game-sim.
I don't know why people want them ( if they really do ) but I certainly don't. Riding subways is incredibly boring and driving them even more so. Bakerloo is a good example. The stations are so similar that you have to catch the name sign to tell the difference. Coming repetitively a few hundred yards apart, they are like bus stops. And there's very little variety in services. A big " No thank you " from me.
This ,I was personally happy for WCML when DTG integrates Barkeloo surface section without DLC required but and I find it a shame that there are not many mixtures of underground sections and surface sections in TSW except on Rapid Transit and Bakerloo
To be fair I shudder at the various electric bus services - Glossop, BCC, Cathcart, Medway Towns but as stated I would make an exception for a historic tube line. Something like the Northern or Central Line does offer network possibilities so not a linear experience. Both the Northern and Central have some longer sections once you get outside central London, particularly if the latter was set when the Ongar branch was still operated by LT/LUL.
People like different things. I wouldn't personally find it interesting, but there's a certain "relaxing" sort of gameplay people get out of doing repetitive tasks in video games. Why is there a "power washer simulator?" To be fair, a lot of the current urban stock is pretty much the same thing just a bit more to see. It's still the same start and stop repetition. I'm not going to tell other people how to have fun. If there were enough interest, it could open a rather large network up with the London Underground. They might even be able to do the whole thing given that it's only what 250 miles maybe and there's lots of tunnels which are virtually identical between very similar tube stations, so building the "props" would be easier than normal. It'd be at most twice as big as a normal route (but as I said, I think that's less actual work because of reusing the same assets over and over) Even if they just did each "line" separate that's still some quick cash for (relatively) little work. 17 miles of mostly underground for the Circle line for example would be pretty simple compared to other routes in game. The timetables would be ridiculously simple to do too since they're so well documented and linear. The only question would be how many people would buy it? Well, again here the scale comes into play. Being such short runs with few assets, they'd be relatively cheap to make so you could charge much lower than other routes. You could maybe get as low as $15, or more in bundles. Something 1/5 as long as Shap or Blackpool would reasonably cost about 1/5 to make (or less) , so $10 for the Circle Line (longer lines would be more) would be low enough you might get a LOT of buyers who will pay that on a whim. It's below the normal $20 "splurge" limit many people tend to have when consuming things. For about $100-$125 you could have the whole London Underground. (There's be more savings than normal from reusing the same lines used by different "lines" like three lines using the same lines between Baker St and Moorgate. The number of customers is likely very high too because while not everyone lives near a major railway, almost everyone in the UK and almost any visitor to the UK has been on the London Underground at some point so would see it as familiar. Just roughly thinking out loud here, but it seems like a doable project that keeps investment risk low and potential for sales and profit high. It also saves money by capitalizing on an existing footprint (TSW) instead of building a whole new game like other companies are doing...which further could bring new sales into non-Underground projects once people are already buying into TSW to get to the Underground DLC. " The London Overground perhaps? How many routes start/end in London? It'd be an interesting "bundle" for TSW 6 or TSW 7 in it's own right. Are there any issues I'm missing such as licensing, or rolling stock that I'm missing? Lots of people ride it here regularly. I've only ridden it on trips to the UK over the years.
Apparently not enough, or we would've already have gotten a 2nd underground route after Bakerloo. Some underground routes use automatic trains, which makes for uninteresting gameplay. The UK is only a small portion of the TSW playerbase. I think most people buying routes aren't familiar with the route. You need a route that's interesting for those people not familiar with it. Just targetting people familiair with the London Underground isn't going to get you enough sales.
TSW being a niche game in a niche market probably doesn't help. I'm quite surprised it hasn't been capitalised on though. The underground is one of the many reasons for tourists to visit London.
Well of course the elephant in the room all this might be the fact DTG have registered a "Subway Sim" trademark, as being discussed in a separate thread. Waiting for the roadmap Q&A to ask the question though not expecting an answer, particularly as I pinged Alex in that thread and thus far has declined to comment. It could explain where the route building teams have gone - I mean for the UK the only title on the horizon in house is Cardiff City and there seems a chance that might have been built by Rivet. There doesn't seem to be a DTG US route incoming any time soon so, again, maybe the on staff builders have been reassigned to whatever the American take on the genre could be. Probably all tin foil hat junk, but it would kind of explain where the artists and programmers who should be working on TSW (and TSC, Catan and Fishing) have disappeared off to.
I played Bakerloo, I completed the timetable (short version) and the scenarios which took some time and by the end I had enough. For me travelling in the tunnels all the time, it can get boring. Different driving a train where you can look out and see the landscape as you travel along. It would be nice to have another underground that could join up with the bakerloo maybe, but it would have to have overground sections to break up the stuck in tunnels bit.
I’m pretty confident in believing the Bakerloo is one of the best selling TSW routes ever, being bundled in TSW2. I’m thinking it’s more likely that DTG just doesn’t want to deal with having to make so many tunnels. Lots of light baking and such.
There are already several excellent subway simulations, but perhaps Focus wants it all, train, tram, subway and bus?
I wouldn't want to see a fully underground route, but I'd love to see one or more of the sub-surface London Underground lines, like the District line or the Metropolitan line. They're above ground as well as underground, and the S Stock on those routes would also add layers to other routes, such as Suffragette line at Barking. The Metropolitan line in particular has merits from a historical perspective, as it contains part of the world's first underground railway.
I don't think I'd buy an all-sub surface route, but many of the LUL lines have long overground sections which make for interesting running and the variation between over and underground stations is more pronounced than the run on many of the UK and German commuter lines.
Pretty much every Underground line has had multiple suggestion threads. Even the Victoria line, which is fully underground up to its northern terminus at Walthamstow Central, and has been fully Automatic Train Operated since it opened in 1968.
People like different things. The London Underground is the most recognized rail network in the world. It's hardly a suprise that it gets many suggestions
The thing I like about subway / metro lines is the rapid acceleration and stopping, frequent stopping which keeps you on your toes. To me a Metro line that is a combination of underground / above ground is the best idea such as Bakerloo. I'll add that having proper stop announcements like the mods for Bakerloo provides is essential to immersion. As someone motioned, for me it's also about familiarity. I've rode the Toronto Sunway system more times than I can count when I lived there and would love a full rendition of line 1 (I'm excited that there is someone working on a portion of it). Again, sounds, announcements, etc really make it immersive and enjoyable.
It solely depends on the line. I think the majority of London underground lines run on the surface and sub surface, so it's not all underground. Bakerloo line yes I agree the stations on the surface all look the same and it can get rather boring. Then I guess rivet games chose one of the easier lines to model. There's the District Line that is on the surface and sub surface with most of the stations being unique and rather different. Central line is the same also it travels quite far out of London into the countryside. Metropolitan again is the same. There's some subway routes in USA that again are on the surface as well as sub surface and you get the unique El or elevated parts of the line running thru the city. On the subject of boring and all the stations looking identical. There's a lot of modern, non underground routes on tsw that look like this! If the developers actually modelled the tunnels properly and didn't give us the same old generic nonsense. Most of them have some rather unique features also.
The Northern Line done historically would have some variety with the stations. Mentioned previously the famous narrow platforms at Angel etc. I nearly pooped myself waiting for a tube there once and ended up standing on the access stairs! You also have extensive overground sections in the northern suburbs and the single track spur to Mill Hill East. Of interest too, the turning loop at Kennington and the split routing through central London.
I'm all for historical me. I think some of these modern routes are just easier for dtg to do as most of the infrastructure has gone. Those island platforms are a reminder of the days when people just lived with it, rather than wanting to change everything continously. They was a bit iffy though, especially during the rush.
For me personally (!), they are boring for three reasons. 1. There is no scenery. 2. Often no variety in trains 3. Often no complex gameplay
If you’re not a Londoner you won’t get it. It’s like the old boys in here preaching how the railways were better in the 70’s/80’s. Not my era, so I’ll never understand. Gimme my modern day loco and route, yes that includes a second TSW underground route also. Preferably the Metropolitan line, since this line is above ground more and offers one of the better scenic views among the other underground lines. The Metropolitan line has been done in TSC by JT. Should be easy bringing this to TSW.
I really enjoy Bakerloo Line. It’s the only real Subway Route we currently have. I’ve seen so many ask for the Metropolitan Line as well as the NYC Subway in here. Hundreds of times. I love Subway routes. And a lot of the trains sound amazing too. Especially the Berlin U Bahn. Love the design of the BVG HK. Looks very unique compared to other Subway Trains.
I think lots of people here think that every underground route is fully in tunnels with no scenery and stations which look identical. I just want to clear up that only two underground lines are fully underground and over half of the tube is above ground. Additionally, most underground routes involve different branches and service patterns. I respect that some people don't want underground routes but I just thought I would clear this up so people less familiar with the underground can form their own opinions.
The Bakerloo Line gives me my London Underground fix. I'd only want a sub-surface line if we got another LU line in TSW. It gets lonely in them single bore tunnels. I'd be very interested in a Berlin S-bahn route or two. But other than the Metropolitan or District Line I'd prefer the next SE of England route to be an electric commuter route that leaves the captial and has different station/branch line service patterns for passenger trains and a mix of freight. I'd like the passenger stock to be a mix of "single handle" trains and something a bit more traditional. So GWR Modern, ECML South, MML south, Great Eastern or LTS. Though an honorary mention for the South West Main Line down there in third rail land too. Something for everyone rather than something for a small number of TSW players like you'd get with another single stock tube line (with TS38s being your only railtour option).
Mainly the rolling stock for me. I would be chuffed with more modern LU stock. The Glasgow Metro-Cammell & NYC stock would be a treat too. Aside from that, there's something ominously attractive about the subway, this foreboding indoor-outdoor liminal quality to it, and not forgetting the sound of a train coming, breaking the dreadful anticipation, the thunder swelling down the tunnel as it gets closer until the headlights break forth, never gets old.
Yes, as captured by the opening of The Jam's "Down In The Tube Station At Midnight" which I was led to believe was a TS59 or TS62. I think the modern traction doesn't have the same clattering whining motors/loud compressor noises that, for me, make the arrival of a train a little less of an aural treat. The Central Line was best for that, most of its underground stations were on straight track allowing for higher speed limits on approach to the platform than we see on the rather bendy Bakerloo. And don't get me started on the sound that comes from the electric rails when a 3rd/4th rail train is approaching. Sadly not modeled in TSW.
That is precisely why when people suggest S stock era for the sub surface line, I have to counter with the classic view. And indeed fond memories of the 59/62 stock and those exceptionally loud compressors running. All added to the atmosphere.
I know, all that bleeping and PIS announcements somewhat puncture the atmosphere of Underground plaforms now too. I have an old video of trains at Earls Court (District Line platforms) which was always the mecca for me in terms of London Underground stations, especially around 1980/81 when you have the rattle of CO/CP stock, the electric whine of the R stock both of which had notoriously unreliable doors which meant 20 sets of doors clattering shut at different times. The noisy C stock and the refined, amazingly modern-looking, rattle-free D Stock. Trains arriving and departing every minute or less. I could stand on one of the footbridges captivated by the organised chaos of it all for hours. Sorry drifted off-topic and went all wistful there. It's very unlikely but if TSW did the District Line in 1980 with that variety of stock I'd probably spend most of my time back on that footbridge.
I should modify my anti- subway phillipic. If it were the District, which my distant memory places mostly either above ground or cut- and- cover, that might be interesting. Especially if it were set back to the sixties or seventies. But still, London and the South East are way overdone anyway.
For mastery definitely 1970’s Northern Line and how long you can stand on the narrow island at Angel before bottling it and boarding a train to get out of there!
I couldn't support or buy a Northern Line DLC, while there are open-air sections up at the north end, it also includes the longest stretch of single bore tunnels of any Underground Line, including the Victoria which is all underground. If we're going to grade them on outdoor stations. 1st = District - 36 - 4 branch lines 2nd = Central - 29 - Single bore tunnels - 3 branch lines 3rd = Metropolitan - 27 - 4 branch lines 3rd = Piccadilly 27 - Single bore tunnels -2 branch lines 4th = Hammersmith & City - 16* no branch lines *shares services with Circle Line 5th = Northern 14 - Single bore tunnels - 4 branch lines 6th = Jubilee - 12 Single bore tunnels - no branch lines 7th = Circle - 11* no branch lines 8th = Bakerloo - 9 - Single bore tunnels - no branch lines 9th = Victoria - 0 - single bore tunnels - no branch lines (except for the depot)
since TSW2, I would say the game has grown a lot, in terms of development, despite the issues. Bakerloo line had a lot of flaws in terms of its scenery back then. However, I wouldn’t mind DTG having another go at an Underground route. Now that they’ve grown since that time. Maybe Piccadilly? Before the 25 stock comes in. However, the best option is to start with a smaller subway route, then go ahead and do an underground route. Maybe U Bahn Berlin?
Another chart, this graded for total miles with total stations shown too. 1st = Central Line - 46 miles/49 stations 2nd = Piccadilly - 44 miles/53 stations 3rd = Metropolitan - 41 miles/34 stations 4th = District - 39 miles/60 stations 5th = Northern - 36 miles/50 stations 6th = Jubilee - 22 miles/27 stations 7th = Circle - 16 miles/36 stations 8th = Hammersmith & City 15 miles/29 stations 9th = Bakerloo 14 miles/25 stations 10th = Victoria 13 miles/16 stations Personally, if it's an interesting DLC package you're after then you're looking at a blend of interesting waypoints and interesting service patterns, then you're looking at one of the top four in the above tables. For both, but with subtle differences, It's Central and Piccadilly on the tube network and District or Metropolitan on the sub-service lines. If we're grading them on work needed to build the route so you have some DLC to sell, the tedious Victoria Line wins. I'm off work until at least June, so have plenty of time for UK railway data/historical rolling stock info, if anyone has any requests.
Personally I find it difficult to look beyond the Metropolitan as it hits the sweet spot between all the metrics shown. Even though it's not my favourite LU route. Plus it has parallel running with the Marylebone to Amersham section of BR's Chiltern Line for added variation. It's a fantastic add-on in TSC, the S stock is nicely challenging to drive, the learning curve isn't too steep, stopping at the exact stop benefits the player with CCTV of the side of the train, a huge depot, plenty of other sidings, options for short runs to Moorgate, Farringdon and Baker Street. Lots of ECS workings to sidings and depots. Countryside with some beautiful mature trees and hilly fields, the Metroland urban sprawl, historic stations, Wembley Stadium, London Skyline on approach to Finchley Road, a busy underground section and a wonderful terminus at Aldgate. Plus if the weather is set correctly with dynamic temperatures the difference in elevation means that when the weather is like it is today. You'll go from the central London heat island at 6oC and rain, to the top of the Chilterns at 2oC and snow.
Although I have given up on TSW for a while now, I would return for LU routes. I think they are perfect for a TSW add-on with 24 hour service patterns. With most routes this annoys me (WCLM ending at Miltion Keynes etc.), but for a London Underground route with it´s own dedicated stock and branch lines this actually makes sense and offers a full experience. At this point there is also enough rolling stock in game to populate the overground sections with AI traffic on neighbouring mainline tracks. But it would have to be the full thing and nothing else for me to press the buy button. A full central or northern line with all branches and a 24 hour working timetable with depot moves etc. would be amazing. Something I would buy at full price on day one. Same goes for certain other networks around the world like Berlin etc.
Agree with the end to end thing 100%. I have repeatedly suggested the LTS/C2C for exactly that reason. Other than London to Brighton, it's the shortest South Eastern commuter route and has huge potential for service variations, 3 ways of getting from one end to the other, two types of passenger traction, loads of freight workings. It's what management types would call "a no-brainer". A modern version with 357 and 720s would be a big seller for DTG. I'll cut the new developer making part of the North London Line some slack as a first project because he's also building new traction while building a scenery intensive route on his first DLC.
So many people want the London Underground simply because it is what it is. The most iconic and well-known metro system in the world. On top of that, there is such a variety of lines and locos that someone with little knowledge about the tube would potentially not realise that they are part of the same brand, and who could blame them? The difference between the sections of the metropolitan line in Buckinghamshire and the densely packed stations on the northern or central lines are completely different, so if one tube line doesn’t interest you, there’s a good chance another will
The Bakerloo line is what got me into playing TSW in the first place. Been waiting 5 years hoping another line would be added! Correct me if I’m wrong but I think only the Victoria line is fully underground and most of the network is actually above ground. The Hammersmith & City line would be a good addition especially as part of it is being added in the GWE remaster.
