Overpriced Loco Add Ons And Routes

Hi,

I don't know how others think, but the routes and all dlc are absolutly OVERPRICED (whitout the br 182 dispolok and br 143 add onn) I mean, 35 euros for a route, full of bugs , missing overhead wires, You can't ask 35 euros for it. for 35 eures you can buy a whole new game!
And I din't even talk about loco add ons. 35 EURES FOR THE 101 EXPERT???? WHAT IS THIS???
And normal add ons almost going up to 18 euros? That would be the price for a route, not for a single br 218 and N cars! If these dlc's had no bugs, it is still overpriced , but then I don't bother. But now all those DLC's are full of bugs- and that tsw is making only more incomplete DLC whitout fixing bugs - this is absolutly grazy

cheers

 

It's not a cheap hobby, true, but if you don't mind waiting patiently, you can get most stuff on a good discount during sales.

 

The price rises are causing me to raise an eyebrow but of course we get the age old circular debate about niche hobby, DTG aren’t a charity, the volatile economic climate, cost to employers of National Insurance contributions rising in April etc. etc.

But all that said there comes a point at which you can’t squeeze the pips any further and customers will put a red line under what they will pay for an add on. Or not bother, or wait for a sale. Then there’s the generally buggy state of the game at present and wondering what the hell DTG are doing with their cut of the money they make off the DLC, like buying some programmer time to start fixing things up.

 

This

It’s kinda weird at the moment as the last 6 or 7 addons have all been released full price with bugs and have only had patches released shortly before sales.

It currently almost makes buying stuff day 1 (or even day 14) nonsensical….. which is a rubbish business model

 

Well, the cost of everything has gone up about double in the last 10 years, so why would these be any less? Seriously, when I go to the store I expect the "normal" price of things to be about twice what it was, and it's usually correct.
It takes people to make content and that's the most expensive part of software development.
Folks gotta eat.

Just a thought, but since DLCs haven't doubled in price, I'm wondering if they are reducing development time (mostly the bug fixes and polishing at the end) in order to keep lower costs on projects. It's not a good long term business model no, but they could be afraid that full stocker shock would stop sales cold and they'd be unemployed.

That would also fit with the DTG "core focused" model of not producing as much content and letting third parties do it. That requires much less staff and many third parties essentially work for very little, either as part timers (with other full time jobs) or as a hobby. You can get people to make stuff on their own free time or for less per person if it's a "passion project."

Like I said, I haven't been a software developer but I have run teams before and had to do business budgets so this is one thought on things in the current high inflation environment. You cut costs that you can, offload workload, and try to keep costs low to retain customers.

Now that only works as long as the product is still being bought by the consumers of course. But, so far sales don't seem to have dropped substantially so people are still buying the content, even with bugs. Maybe it's "expected" now much like the move to Chinese imports brought with it a sense of "disposability" in exchange for low cost. People know that products will last a shorter time, but the "stick price" in the present is what they seek instead.

I don't see why computer games would be inherently all that different than anything else. If anything, DLC lends itself to less focus on long term value because at any time a business could go under and you could lose functionality, whereas an old car will keep driving as long as you take care of it. There are few "antique" video games.

(Yes there are 10 people out there with CDs for MSTS, but you get my meaning...for the 99.999%....)

;-)

 

JT and TSG prices are a little higher but DTG’s standard DLC prices are a little cheaper in real terms compared to TSW2020 prices, and that’s just basing it on the official UK inflation figures and not the actual rise in prices of most things I buy*. I don’t know if they’re overpriced in general though as it’s hard to know what to compare it to. They probably wouldn’t exist if they had to be cheaper.

It all comes down to value for money and that is individual to each player and how much use they get from each DLC they buy. If I look at JT’s WCML over Shap, I have already got much more value out of that full price purchase than I have out of most routes I’ve bought in sales just from the hours I’ve spent in it. To me it has been an absolute bargain and nothing else I could have spent £33 on can compare in value. I wouldn’t buy TSG’s Expert BR 101 even in a sale as it wouldn’t ever give me value for money but for others it will be the best £30 they spend because they will get a lot out of the extra features. I’m happy with the original DTG BR 101. I don’t have the cab car but I can live without it.

As for bugs and fixes, I’m not entirely sure it’s any worse now than it ever has been. It’s hard to quantify it but TSW has always been buggy and lots of bugs linger round for a very long time. It doesn’t seem any worse now to me. For players having constant crashes then it will but the number of bugs in DLC seems about the same and as always some content is worse than others in this regard.

*I bought a multipack of single Twix fingers last week and the price was twice what it was the last time I bought some and they are now about 60% the size they were then. This is the real crime against the consumer, along with the ridiculous energy prices we have in the UK now. I remember being dismayed on a cold winter day when my smart meter showed anything over £5 just before midnight and now just a few years later I watch it tick over £10 at 11pm and I have my thermostat set lower these days. I do get a warm glow when I read what the energy company has made in profits though. I say warm glow, more burning rage really. At least TSW DLC is still reasonably priced.

 

A good way of looking at it.
What else could you buy with that money instead?
I can spend X hours on a DLC.... or.... go to the movies?
Go out to a nice lunch?
Pay for a tank of fuel?
Buy groceries for a couple days?
It's all about what you THINK the value is.
In the end we don't NEED to buy any DLC.
We don't NEED video games at all.
It's something we're just buying for fun, and fun depends on the individual person.

 

As Stujoy hinted, if you look at inflation, we're paying way less than we should.
When I started playing TS2014, routes were £24.99 and locos were £11.99, the odd one a bit more if it had more to it. Now, AP charge £29.99 for a loco, twice (since they often make multiple volumes, albeit a slight discount off, say, volume 2 if you buy volume 1). Granted, they're much higher quality, but still.

 

To a very small extent yes (only around quality issue affected add ons), but overall no...

The state of WCMLS sort of warrants some of this frustration and going forward if the quality matches that of WCMLS again, then frustration around price is to some extent warranted.

Now, outside of that, there's not a polite way of putting this, and I know I'll get some backlash from it, but I'm willing to just put up with it... But, one of the things what really bugs me in some part of the community is the amount of tight axxx people who are always looking for a sale, always looking for some discount, or moaning because something is at full retail price. Sorry, workmanship costs time and money, and it doesn't revolve around your tight axxx nature, frugal spending habits, or sales revolving around YOU. It is such a selfish and entitled attitude.

You wouldn't haggle with a plumber, you wouldn't haggle with an engineer, and you wouldn't haggle at a supermarket or for a model train. The prices are reasonably fair, and aim to claim back the cost of development and make a profit. For all the issues in the game I've never had an issue with the prices. And compared to other games they are pretty bloody good.

I'm not bashing those who like a sale, (who doesn't like a good deal. Cough cough Cal Train...) and those who only buy in sales and are honest with themselves that they don't like so splash out and who are patient, and not self entitled. But it is aimed at those who are vocal and always whinging about prices, Jesus Christ, take a look at yourself... Tighter then a particular orifice on a ducks anatomy.

 

Everything I've bought (with exceptions, although they're rare) have always been good value for money as far as I'm concerned.

I'm happy with what I've got (again, exceptions apply), and don't feel it's too expensive.

But that's the problem with this sort of thing. Niche markets always have a higher price.

 

I would

I would

I do

Don't buy them but I probably would

Nostrils!

 

You make some good points, stujoy. I can tell you that the situation in the US is very much the same as far as inflation and " shrinkflation " are concerned. And I feel your pain because Twix is also my favorite candy bar.

But, whatever the numbers say, TSW prices are fast approaching my red line of $50 per route and I've been switching to a " sales only " purchase pattern, even when I really want something.

It's not that DTG is overcharging, more that higher prices are not being met by a concomitant increase in quality.

Not always though. The new F59phr is a quality product at a fair price and the North London line looks like it might be the same.

Anyway, as someone said earlier, TSW is not an inexpensive hobby. And higher prices need to lead to better release quality. That would solve most problems and cut down on the complaints.

 

On the contrary, I haggle for the price of services almost all the time. For products it's more difficult, but for the price of a car or other high end products, sure I argue the price. Maybe that's just the American way.

 

I agree Crosstie except the last bit. Since we are already getting lower quality to offset having to raise prices as much as they otherwise would, if you want better quality, expect a big jump in prices to get what you were used to before.
People have this expectation that "it was this price 10 years ago, so it should always be that price for that quality) but that's not how inflation works. If you want improved quality from here, it won't be just a bit more for a bit more quality... it'll be more price for the old "average" quality...or MUCH higher price for above average quality to catch up to inflation.

As you said, I think most people do have a "red line" where they won't buy retail and I thought it was someone from DTG that mentioned that $50 "price ceiling" last year in a discussion. DTG is very aware of it and that is why I'm guessing quality is slipping a bit because they're trying to cut corners to stay under that limit at which people say they refuse to spend that much on a "luxury."

Well some will.... who have lots of disposable income, but sales will drop off a lot as not everyone does. It's about managing expectations.

 

Hell you get a loco which behaves exactly like the real one incl. Cab car and ic wagons. On top a fault simulation.

You are totally right about the 35 euros, never ever came across a dlc this cheap for all features it brings. Even the windows freeze in winter.

I highly recommend to buy this dlc, the most underpriced content of all TSW addons.

 

I will certainly look around for the best price. I even tolerate Wetherspoons on a Monday when the wife and I pop into town in the afternoon as I can get a pint of real ale for £2, sometimes even less, as opposed to £4 or £5 a pint in the pub down the road. Yes occasionally the quality is a bit off, you can tell it's slightly old and they do tend to get in the over hopped battery acid which seems to pass as IPA these days. But for less than half the cost elsewhere I'll take it and the occasional entertainment value of the old rummys having a rant at each other or even one week, a punch up!

 

#5 eures for one single train formation... Okay, it works as real life ( IF YOU NOT LOOKING AT THOSE BuGS)
But still, these prices are just insane.

 

And, window freezing must be at all locs, I mean it looks stupid to see only this train windows freezes, while other trains at the same time not if U know what I mean

 

If the OP thinks TSW is expensive, thank god he doesn't do model railroading.

I think of TSW as basically virtual model railroading.

And if you compare a price of making 1 track layout, with scenery and stock with 1 DLC there is no comparison TSW is way cheaper.

And takes up less room.

 

Definitely agree there. Prices are just silly crazy and I'm surprised many people bother with it these days. Regrettably I sold my OO collection off years ago before the prices went sky high. On the other hand, a model can be experienced in three dimensions and through touch and smell, when they get nicely warmed up. A train sim will always be just a bunch of 2D pixels on a screen.

 

I don't think the prices are unreasonable. For years standard route DLC didn't change and I'm going back to the early days of TSC. There are numerous sales if you are unsure of the price.

Whilst I purchase some items in sales there are many add-ons where I feel the quality, effort and often innovation which has gone into them is worth getting them for full price as I think the developer deserves it. The old saying some know the cost of everything and the value of nothing is quite apt I feel.

I refuse to purchase unfinished and bugged products full price, now, though.

 

Literally gave up on this game. Too many bugs. I just frustrates me. No proper testing. I mean whats the charge for when they can’t even release a good working add-on. Even more infuriating is the recycling pf locos. The New german route doesn’t qualify the price they are asking when none of the locos are news. They couldn’t even bring a new modern British Diesel yet. How long we have to use this Class 66 for?

 

The other very key issue for me, is over saturation of the game with very similar routes. That’s why I didn’t buy the second MBTA route or the Ludwigbahn, probably won’t buy North London Line on release and have a question mark hanging over Cardiff City where the revamped 150 and new 153 are the main appeal. But £25, £30 or even £33 for what I’ve already got, just another short identikit section makes you stop and think. Mitten was the honourable exception, something a bit different and the artwork and route choreography makes you forget this is still TSW.

Basically DTG need a new act if they want to keep charging these sorts of prices for content. Either get into new regions as repeatedly proposed in the Suggestions forum, or start extending and enhancing older routes to give a broader running experience.

Of course all this will fall on deaf ears, if the man running the project is “no longer visiting the forums”, but ultimately as a business they need to read the crowd whether with regard to pricing or the choice of content that’s being made.

 

Inagree whit y'all here above. Like, if the dlc's where good quality it would be okay, but now all these dlc is just ****. You just pay for the bugs

 

Well not literally "all" of them, but the practise to realease a dlc with bug announcement and we will fix this later is a total inacceptable thing.
Latley a lot of dtg releases were clearly unpolished and haf not finished timetables etc.

For such s low screvover of customers im for sure not pay a single cent.

On the other hand, Just trains surprised me with both br blue routes. A ton of variety, lot of content for the price and a must have for br blue fans.

 

I buy most of the time in sales

 

I would understand you if DTG would still give us the same quality as they had on Tsw 1&2. This isnt the case anymore and at least german routes look way better and have way better timetables.
Not to mention that everytime patchnotes release you can see that many bugs on new routes get fixed. Pfälzische for example already had 2 major patches and they even picked on the TGV to make it useable. Not to talk about the WCML Patch making it a completely new route.
Another thing is the effort for a route/loco to be made. They have to through LAMPOIL process before even attempting a route. Then trips to the route and/or loco are expensive too and cost effort.
I dont even want to start how complicated the editor is and yes these are professionals but still doesnt change how it works.

 

All the DLCs I bought were sales purchases with 50%+ except Niddertalbahn which was at 25% because I find the dlcs much too expensive for what they are

 

After a day out in London, £30 for a dlc is much more reasonable and has better value than a £30 admission to some tourist attractions…

 

I think the prices are reasonable.

 

I don’t think there is any issue with the pricing. A fiver difference here and there, who really cares. My only issue is getting one livery per loco dlc. This is compounded by the editor limitations - I mean you can’t even edit the class 31 for instance. How difficult would it really be to address such a basic thing?.

 

This is one of the "problems" with the opinions how much a DLC is worth or not. You can't know it, and so, you assume it's easy to make the loco ready for livery designer. But, surprise, it's not that easy. When the loco was not made for that use, you have to change a big pile of things to make it happen. Needs mesh cuts, new UV layouts and therefor new textures and all those time consuming bits and pieces. And then there are those locos who are ready for livery designer but licencing says NO, like with the G6 shunter. We put a lot of energy into making it livery designer ready, for nothing at the end. That's the real truth with these things.

 

The DLCs aren't overpriced in general, they just don't deliver the quality expected for that price. Did anyone complain about the prices of Mittenwald or WCML North? I noticed barely any criticism in that regard. And even in routes like Pfälzische Ludwigsbahn, which has been the biggest point of criticism recently, DTG has put a lot of work and effort into creating this route. It's just problematic when all the great work is held back by obvious bugs and errors. If the essential bits work fine, things like great scenery, easter eggs, and special features are a great addition. If the essentials don't work it's even more annoying, because work has been put into these extras and not into making the things that count work.

 

The biggest problem (to me) is the ongoing core stutters and resulting sound glitches. Starting to ruin the enjoyment, even the new F59 is affected by it. DTG, including the senior production staff, need to step up, acknowledge the problems and start fixing them. Turning their backs on the forum and the feedback is not the answer. I actually just refunded the F59, not because it's a bad add on per se but that it can't be enjoyed to its full potential in the current state of the host game.

 

The livery editor is available on

I’d say around 90% of the UK loco dlc have the option to edit the livery, so I’m not buying not the suggestion it’s too much work for someone to implement. My point is that I’m going to be purchasing the dlc regardless, but an alternative livery or edit option should be the bare minimum to expect.

 

I think as a developer, Maik knows a lot better how hard it is to implement an editable livery. If that's the reason why you won't buy an addon, that's fine, but then don't use arguments like:

 

You could at least read my post before commenting, which reads “My point is that I’m going to be purchasing the dlc regardless”.

 

For me it's cheaper than going to a bar, also fun! But in hours compare to the money it's more fun than going to a bar. Sorry that's how my logic works.

 

I don’t think the prices are insane considering the work, time and technical details that go into this stuff BUT I’ve vastly slowed down my purchasing due to quality control issues.

 

I tried playing tsw again today, for the first time since the starter pack came out. The popping and cracking sounds, I just couldn't get past. So it's gone again. Of course, we Xbox players also have the z-fighting issue too, on top of everything else. I'd love to get the new JT route, and the upcoming Welsh route. But I'm still just keeping an eye on here, to see if any of these issues are ever fixed.

 

You want it to be exactly the same and the same cost when costs to make the routes have doubled?
Well I want the same or better work from you but I'm just going to pay you what you got paid 5 years ago.

 

I rarely drink in London, but when I do I can easily spend a ton (£100 quid) or more getting sxxx faced. £32.99 for a new route is pittance in comparison.
You could be dead and gone tomorrow, if you want something that gives you some enjoyment in your life, I say go for it. As long as you can pay your bills, keep the missus happy, kids are fed and looked after then you have nothing to worry about.

 

At the beginning of the game's history (2017-18), I bought/pre-ordered routes for only 500 (!) rubles, starting from 2022 (and you know what events) prices SOARED to 1000 rubles, and at the current time they are generally 1300 and 1500 rubles!! That's awesome a lot!!

 

If you feel something is too expensive don't buy it.

If it's something you want, wait until it's on sale.

That's all there is to it.

 

Like taxation, too little provides no income, too much and everyone leaves.
I'm guessing DTG's expertise is very much present within finance, so they've probably got it right(for them).
Personally I'm a sales goalhanger, and the prices I pay reflect product's value to me. Of course I can still be disappointed or surprised on occasion.

 

Basically look at the price tag and think "Will I get £x/$y/€z's worth of entertainment out of this?" If the answer is yes, buy and enjoy. If the answer is no, move on or wait for a sale.

 

When I started in TSW I bought many routes at full price. I don't regret it, but nowadays I am much more selective and I try to value more the effort and work done to give it a fair reward. Of course, this is very subjective but it's what I feel and as it's my money I spend it as I want. Also, as I already have a large collection to play with, I can wait long enough to wait for bargains without feeling anxious to buy all the new releases.

Some routes seem very expensive to me and others seem cheap or at least at the right price. The best example are the last two routes that have been launched. Pfälzische Ludwigsbahn, which in my opinion brings nothing new or exceptional and without any new rolling stock, as well as not making any improvements to the existing one, not even a revision of the sounds... is very expensive for me and I will wait to buy it one day for the price I consider fair, at least with a 50% discount.

Mittendwahlbahn on the other hand, with a new locomotive made in detail, even with the interior modelled, new wagons, liveries, the BR 111 remodelled inside and its sounds, the exceptional scenery with a thousand details and new assets handmade with all the love, a detailed manual, etc... it seems to me totally justified to buy it at full price, it even seems cheap to me.

If I'm honest, the fact that these two routes have a price difference of 4€ seems to me an insult to intelligence.

 

depends a lot if it is some content I am anticipating and want to play right away or if it can wait... like Mannheim - Kaiserslautern was a German route, and tho it didnt bring new rolling stock, since I got almost every German/Austrian DLC, I knew I will have more than enough locos/units to play with, also liking the variety of routings, and those varied sections... or F59PHR... yeah, "only" a substitution, but well done (once they do sth to fix the booming sounds that is), and has a different vibe and driving style compared to other Metrolink locos (also dynamic braking works differently)

so if it is a content I know I will play and all, I usually get it right away, and if not, I wait for discounts (like older era UK routes/locos - Blackpool and WCML 80s, they look nice, but not my specialty... but I might get em later)

also, my tastes change a lot over the years... well, except German/Austrian content which I like from the start... but atm I do play lots of UK content cos of its chill safety stuff and US passenger diesel stuff cos, dunno why, cos even though it doesnt have safety stuff incorporated (except alerter; tho MBTA stuff has ATC and ACSES which is awesome), there is still sth that makes me come back for another chill session

looking forward to Wales (cos it will have the UK stuff I am used to but still, new country kinda) and Netherlands (new signalling and safety systems, yay), those will be day one purchases, I think... also looking forward to as of yet unannounced German route

 

Workmanship…

 

Calculate the costs of gameplay per hour and you may find out it is quite cheap. If you don't play, don't buy.