Core Update

Even the audio popping on xbox was there before tsw 5, but only rarely. It's much worse now. Even on pre tsw 5 routes. Only seems to be in cabs. But obviously, as this is were we spend the vast majority of our time, far from ideal.

 

Do you seriously think ChatGPT knows more about TSW than DTG themselves? That's hilarious

 

Nice of you to just use ChatGPT to come up of some nonsensical reason as to why TSW should move to UE5 lol.

"Garbage collection", "Virtual Assets" and "Nanite", what does any of this have to do with improving performance and gameplay?

ChatGPT is not your tool when it comes to the technical side of game engines. Leave it out of this thread and preferably this entire forum. Thanks

 

Did I say that? I put the information here for people to take what they want from it.

 

I put chat gpt idea on here to help generate ideas or talks, but then people just focus on chat gpt, can we please go back to TSW? What are your suggestions on solving this?

 

The problem is that automated generation of inaccurate statements actively makes it HARDER to get to the bottom of an issue because it muddies the discussion with garbage that needs to be sifted out.

 

Oh and which parts are inaccurate?

 

Played SEHS for the first time in ages this weekend. 1st attempt resulted in a crash to desktop on a run from St Pancras to Faversham (just outside Sittingbourne), 2nd attempt was one of the TGV expo runs to Ashford, and the texturing issue reared its head again in not being able to read the TVM panel!

At this point I'm torn between persevering on my Series X for now or just building a new PC and redownloading everything onto that through the Microsoft store.

 

At the moment I am only playing SEHS doing the time tables on the PS5 Pro and I can play it for hours on end and not a problem, the thing is absolutely bulletproof and then for no good reason it crashes. I am sending in live crash reports into DTG via the support ticket system with video every time it happens, so they get feedback as to how it is. I have found that the crashes mostly happen on the 395 Javalin routes, whatever is causing it?

 

Matt, could this maybe go some way to explaining the worsening of audio popping on tsw 5? For example, it will happen on a tsw 4 route played within tsw 5.

 

Was that a one-time thing? Because there's a fair few games, usually Playstation ports to PC, which have those, and I basically just treat the first-run shader precompilation step as part of the install process. Sure, even on a Gen4 NVMe drive it can take up to 40m or so, but it's very much worth it for the hours upon hours of improved experience quality. I can see why so many of those use it of course, as it's obviously more important to a narratively-driven story campaign, where it's often something you're only going to play once, and the stuttering would really ruin that experience, with it only briefly playing smoothly when you reload a checkpoint on death.

For now I set up a custom end to end high speed service on every route that each update, I set going, mash the throttle to full, and leave running while I do some work on my other monitor, but that's quite tedious..

At the end of the day, an hour long shader precompilation step is something I'd take since with all my DLC at this point that's what? an extra 30% to the time it takes to install?

I think too many people see the "5" in the name and treat it kind of like the iterative numerical updates to TSW where there's very little in the way of fundamental paradigm-shifting core changes to TS2prototype.exe

 

So whats up with it on xbox s/x why is it blurry all the time and sound popping got to admit the crashing on xbox x is lot less now.

 

Hopefully, it's something the team can resolve. As (I know your well aware) it can spoil what is an otherwise very enjoyable experience.

 

I definitely don't envy the job of anyone trying to figure that out.

 

Personally I find TSW 5 very satisfactory.
I find the Frankfurt-Fulda route to be state of the art.
Ok, I don't use the old routes with ToD3 anymore, but I find the routes from TSW 3 onwards to be of very good quality.
I don't think UE5 is that much nicer than UE4. There are some "stuttering" problems, but there are some workarounds that can be tried.

There are still so many trains and freight cars missing in the current TSW and I don't want to start over with another simple "Rapid Transit".
I am on PC.

 

Matt. Your responses were really helpful and in parts brutally honest about the issues with TSW5. I've certainly learned a lot. It's really appreciated by many in the community.

Could you please shut your computer and enjoy what's left of your Sunday please? Downtime is as important as work for health, I learned the hard way.

 

I was just thinking the same thing. Thank you Matt, for taking the time to explain,on a weekend especially.

 

Appreciate your responses Matt and they do at least reassure me all is not lost.

No doubt you're well aware of the thoughts circulating that the upgraded 2D map which came with TSW5 could be (partly) responsible for the performance hit, or has that already been ruled out.

And let me assure you, I still want TSW to be the "go to" train sim on my PC. TSC is limited and starting to look its age particularly the older routes and traction. All it really fulfils for me when installed is to compensate for the lack of steam traction in TSW (a rabbit hole we won't go down today)! SimRail stubbornly refuses to move beyond driving a half hour either side of Zawierce in MP with no sign of movement on its SP game. Run 8 is magnificent but expensive with an arcane e-commerce system and graphics that are by and large worse than MSTS in 2002. Derail Valley, JR East, Traincrew etc. have their merits but ultimately are of minor interest.

 

Thanks for this Matt, as a community we appreciate this honesty and the fact you came and explained it in full depth shows you care and this is what we’ve been asking for better communication as some of have stated we are often left in the dark for ages and for a game we rely on that gives us this immersion to drive trains in the comfort of our own help is depressing when left in the dark but it seems like a really pain in the backside! Hope you’re able to sort the problems out.
New releases of TSW doesn’t help out at all I assume tho.

 

Late to the party, but a very good mate from uni days is a prof of software engineering, specialising in safety critical systems, including aerospace. He's explained to me that every piece of software more complex than a "Hello World" program almost certainly contains bugs. Testing will catch some of them, but even moderately complex code contains more possible configurations and routes through the code than could possibly be tested within the lifetime of the universe, so you select what you think are the most 'likely' routes and test those. You risk being caught out by what are considered 'unlikely' configurations.

Software items such as aircraft engine management systems contain millions of lines of code and there are certainly bugs in there, hopefully not safety critical ones (note that the recent 737max issues weren't a software bug - the software was performing exactly as specified, it was the training and awareness of the pilots that was the problem). For safety critical stuff, they use specialist languages that are less prone to bugs, and will have two or more independent development teams working to the same spec, so their results can be compared in real time.

All this adds enormously to development costs, and I doubt anyone here would be willing to part with £000s to purchase a 'bug free' version of TSW.

TL;DR DTG could certainly do more to catch more bugs earlier, but bug-free code in games, banking software or aircraft systems is an impossible ambition.

 

Well, yes, but Schifferstadt not having any catenary or working signals is not an "unlikely path", that just means that none of the testers even opened the game.

 

Whilst I appreciate some clarity over some of the core issues (and this isn't a personal dig to Matt as an individual, more of a comment aimed at game itself), but since WCMLS was released in the state it was with the launch, I've heard DTG make all the right noises but it is just that, words with no definitive action outside some minor optimisations... But actions speak louder then words as the saying goes. And quite honestly because of the ongoing issues, promises that were made seem to have turned into vapour... Now quite frankly I think you can say 'once we've got ontop of issues some of these promises will be kept', but what is the likelihood the core issues are ever going to be sorted?

Not only are the core issues affecting the whole game, but what about things like WCMLS receiving the update Liam and other members of the community made? We got a half of the 'major' update, but the other half along with scenary seems to have been left in limbo. Will it actually ever be released?

Quite honestly once I physically see a change then I'll be grateful. But until then, because of how things have been over the last 8 months, it is all just 'saying the right things', but not implementing them. Work may be going on behind the scenes, but I've heard it all before... Actions do speak louder then words.

Nothing intended on a personal level, but certainly disappointed with the game in its current state, given I know what its full potential can be.

 

While not a high priority, OTOH it's low-hanging fruit; I can't imagine telling the game to designate more than one storage address requires the staff of DARPA.

Which then raises the question, when and if TSW eventually migrates engines, with all the MASSIVE headaches associated (which sooner or later is going to have to happen), would it make sense to move out of the Unreal sphere into a different, large-open-world-oriented, engine like Unity or Cryengine?

 

And y'know, the fact the software was relying on input from a single point of failure piece of hardware that could and did cease to function properly and had no redundant backup, causing the scenario where the software performed exactly according to spec based on incorrect data it received.

Even when the software works perfectly, it's no excuse for cheaping out on all the surrounding stuff based on the expectation that as long as software works, you don't need to properly train people, or invest in reliable hardware, etc. Unfortunately too many people who don't understand it's not magic are in the roles determining what gets spent where.

 

Yes, sometimes I feel like we are being technically filibustered. I don't want to be personal either, but I'd like some more substance to the talk. I mean, where is the game going? Why is there so much inconsistency? Why do we have Cardiff and ZG practically in the same breath? Is DTG still into route making? Or is outsourcing and 3rd parties the future?

Are we condemned to a life sentence of electric toy trains and short commuter routes? Is steam ever returning? Has US rail been effectively abandoned? Is there a future for freight railroading?

And that rather ponderous comment about multiple saves..... I guess we'll take that as a " no ".

It's all somewhat exasperating. A lot of words and I'm none the wiser about the direction the game is taking ( if there is one at all ).

Sorry to be so negative. Think I'll take a run on Sand Patch. That'll make me feel better. Back to the glory days when hope sprung eternal.

 

Thank you Matt for the time you have spent on this thread explaining the on going issues with TSW and how they are being addressed.

I am pleased that you have admitted that performance is a problem as it is probably the most commented on deficiency that this game has. The stuttering on some routes often completely spoils enjoyment by wrecking the immersion factor and that is a fatal flaw for any software that describes itself as a simulator.

As a priority issue, I assume that work is being done to improve the overall performance of the core program but I fear that as the code of the core has been "developed" over several versions (with new bits bolted on haphazardly) that any improvements are likely to remain fairly minor. I will be delighted if I am proved wrong!

Then there is the woolly mammoth in the room... Will any performance updates be hidden behind a pay wall with the release of TSW6? That repugnant practice which alienated so many of your loyal customers was thankfully scrapped with the TSW5 free starter pack and many are hoping we have seen the last of it.

If (when) TSW6 is released will the improvement to core be made available to existing customers who have in many cases already BOUGHT a number of previous versions?

 

As a newer member of the TSW community (I started with TSW4), the optimization issues are the biggest thing keeping me from being more invested (both monetarily and otherwise). I'd grab Mittenwaldbahn and Spoorlijn Zwolle for full price right now if I felt like I could be properly immersed in the routes without the awful stuttering and scenery pop-in. I have tons of beautiful and entertaining routes already that I purchased on sale, and I don't absolutely "need" any more until there are serious improvements to the core game.

It's not as big of a deal on routes where I am focused on just driving the trains, but the ones where I want to enjoy the scenery are really held back for me by these performance issues. I'm not going to pay $40+ USD for something I can't truly enjoy to the fullest. I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way. Probably a fair amount of money left on the table because of issues like this.

I appreciate DTG Matt's frank and transparent responses in this thread to give more insight on these issues. I hope it's something they can resolve in the future.

 

The one thing that I feel needs a rethink of priorities. Yes the core is important but if it’s not going to be a quick fix then let’s at least look at a worthwhile QOL improvement that can be done. It’s absolutely nuts that once I start a two hour run (there’s a freight scenario on Shap that’s estimated at two and a half hours) I can’t save it then go off and do something else in the meantime, as I might need to save that as well. Not asking for or expecting unlimited save slots (though that would be nice) just three or preferably five to manage our playtime with the plethora of content we now have, somewhat better.

 

When Are You Fix finally the blurred and flickering textures on Console/Xbox Series X?
The Game is unplayable so

 

What would throw salt in the wound is going "Welp we know there's lots of outstanding core issues but here's TSW 6 with the same issues with some new ones and now you have to re-download all your DLC again!"

TSW 5 has had noticeably larger DLC sizes with some (WCML Over Shap, Mittenwaldbahn, Frankfurt) exceeding 10GB, these add up really quickly on my SSD and it's getting to the point where I might have to invest in a new SSD to keep up. If there are ways to reduce these file sizes without major compromise I think they should be done.

 

They really need some sort of common library for items used on more than one route. Of course MSTS started this trend with each route being in its own self contained folder but TSW is now at the point where some consolidation would be welcome.

 

A comment on the mention of stuttering in simulation software being unacceptable. There is a price to that issue - if you buy the standard edition of X-Plane it will cost you $59.99 in the US. A version which has FAA certification for use in commercial simulators could run from hundreds to thousands, depending on configuration. The major reason for the difference is the close integration of software and hardware to eliminate issues such as stuttering, the number of man-hours required to test and the cost of such certification. Of course, the hardware is also likely to be beyond the average gamer equipment budget (also having to be tested and certified). In other words, improvement is the goal, but, given the variables, don't expect miracles.

 

I don't think you are being 'filibustered' but you are conflating lots of different, almost unrelated, issues. Matt was addressing the performance issues in the core, which I believe this thread is about, and what he is describing rings true with me (I have a lot of professional experience in this kind of area). Work like this is a combination of inspiration and perspiration for software engineers, taking educated guesses and leaps of faith to work out what's going on and then devising ways to fix it without something else suffering - you're often robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's challenging work but I always found it fun, although not everyone does.

 

Debugging software can be like tracking down an electrical fault in a car-- like playing Where's Waldo, assuming Waldo can teleport, and wear Predator cloaking gear.

 

The problem is, we can all sympathise and acknowledge some issues are more difficult then others to fix (within reason).

But quite frankly the bugs are reported very quickly by players and left to overlap into the next title or add on which then just adds to the complexity of issues. It would seem not resolving them at the time and leaving them with a 'we'll fix it later' attitude that has come back to bite them on the axxx.

As an individual player and speaking for myself only here, I have understanding and empathy with ironing out bugs etc, I'm not expecting over night fixes. But when the quality is continuing to dip, core issues keep lapping over each other even though they were reported at the time, my patience grows pretty thin. It seems quite honestly that the issues are only currently being looked at in more detail because theres most likely an upcoming release we all know about in September. And for the first time in years I can safely say I won't be preordering or buying the new game if the treatment we have had with TSW5 is anything to go by.

At this moment in time, I'm disappointed in the game and its image has been tarnished for now. Until I see quite substantial improvements I'll be out the circle for a while and concentrate only on third party content (that's if core issues allow it! Yet again!)

 

Oh I get that and I wasn't trying to apologise for them. Sometimes you have to admit you have a problem before you can start fixing it and I'm hoping they've reached that point. Software is hard, but I guess I would say that!

 

Who is expecting "miracles" ?

All I expect is the same level of smooth running that I get from every other game I have on my PS5. All the other titles I own have excellent silky smooth performance doing stuff every bit as complicated as TSW and often far more complex with higher graphics rendering and processing needs.

Nothing miraculous about that, it is the norm and it is TSW that has continuously failed to reach the required acceptable standard.These issues are not new. They go back years to when I first got into the game with TSW2020 and appear to get slightly worse when each new iteration is released.

Making excuses for the shortcomings of this game is not going to help getting the upgrades that it urgently needs. Complacency is not an option. What is required is the action for performance improvements that we are now promised and hopefully will get.

 

Very much agree with this, the glacial pace of fixes is my biggest frustration with TSW. Its driving me to only buy add-ons when signifigantly discounted. I keep seeing people posit how bug fixing does not make money. I would say sure it does, in that the state you leave the previous product you've sold someone is going to inform their willingness to buy your next product and for how much.

DW

 

If tsw5 core is anything to go by then I will not buy tsw6 if that ever shows up.

 

Is just or are the loading times ridiculously long lately.

 

On my PS5, I've got all UK DLC installated, plus a couple of German routes and it takes about 6 or 7 minutes to load up. It's insane.

 

Same here so long.

 

I really wish they would work on the long loading times, it takes so long because it's checking which DLCs you own, which I'm guessing is actually mounting and unmounting each one in turn.

You would think there would be a way to identify if anything has been installed / uninstalled since you last played, and if not then just re-use the list of add-ons the game created previously, either a date of last install or a total file size count and if it's changed then rebuild the list of add-ons.