Upcoming Release Frankfurt S-bahn: Coming Soon!

I am really disappointed for the reduced timetables for consoles. And worse the way it is redacted the article, where you get the surprise at the very end…
Difficult to buy this route at full price for console players.

 

The take away is that once you start offering this hypothetical discount for reduced timetables, where do/can you fairly draw the line.

It could be argued that 8th gen players need to spend a subjectively stupid amount of money to get these "free" upgrades just as you would need to spend a subjectively stupid amount of money moving from one platform to another.

If percentage based discounts for reductions in the included timetable or rolling stock of a route ARE ever introduced, it would need to apply across the board or not at all. As in, anytime anyone on any platform would receive less than the full included features, there should be a discount applied. Be it 8th gen reductions or this specific example.

Otherwise it just wouldn't be proper or right. But as I said, the nest thing to do is release both and let the players chose for themselves.

 

This is clearly a slap in the face for 9 gen console players, buy this only at HUGE discount or when the full timetable Is avaiable

 

So, I can fly across the world in msfs with real-time weather, with other players using a variety of planes and scenery magnitudes more complex than any Tsw route.

I can drive across countries in forza seamlessly with other live players using a variety of cars with scenery magnitudes more complex than any route in tsw.

I can play a multitude of games built for Xbox and choose whether to play performance or quality mode.

Somehow though, dovetail aren't able to let me drive a few kilometres down a railway with a full timetable?

 

What's the point in having a layer selector if we're given a reduced timetable to begin with? I'd rather be able to decide what I need to cut out rather than have *this*.

 

I just found out about the reduced schedule for the consoles. I wrote in another thread that I was hype for this DTG release and what a disappointment I've been!

TSW has become a broken toy in DTG's hands because of their inability to fix the core of the game and I think there's no going back now. It's the beginning of the end for this game on consoles.

I certainly won't be supporting this decision, after spending over 1500€ they won't be getting a penny from me from now on. They're not going to keep spitting in my face by making me pay the same for less. This is as far as we have come.

 

And even if you do have top notch hardware, it still splutters, stutters and mangles the sound.

My PC is a potato by any definition (I7 4770, GTX 1650 with 4Gb VRAM and 24Gb of system RAM). Yet Forza 4 and Dirt 2.0 run smooth as butter on it as does Snowrunner albeit the occasional pause. The fault for this mess lies entirely with DTG for, 1. Choosing UE as a game engine for a train sim in the first place and, 2. Seemingly not having the knowledge or skill set to optimise and get the best performance for the demands a train game puts on it.

 

To be fair, GTA VI engine doesn't have to emulate real life trains to every small details, and can "fake" a lot of things - your brain will fill in the blanks.

GTA VI's world is custom made, and heavily optimised so that the computer on which the game runs can catch a breath now and then, while TSW needs to simulate real world locations and doesn't have that luxury.

Rockstar also has it's own engine, which has cost them millions to build by the way, while DTG needs to rely on a commercially available third party engine (Unreal Engine) that never was intended to run the sizable of worlds that DTG needs to build.

 

Which brings us back to optimisation. We have seen a trend with recent routes to go a bit overboard with detail and high poly objects some distance back from the lineside (Cardiff Central the dishonourable exception, ha!) which must be cutting into performance. Back in the days building routes for MSTS and TSC you had to plan the scenery creation carefully exactly for that reason. What’s the point in making a detailed back garden on houses 400 metres from the lineside or planting full poly crops in fields where they will barely be seen in helicopter view let alone looking straight ahead out the cab? If there are limitations on what the game engine vs average hardware (and PS5 should probably be the benchmark) can do, then wind your ambitions in.

 

I know new routes tend to have bugsies, but still, it is nice and busy German content, so day one for me

 

Der Fahrplan für die Konsolen ist echt ein Witz. Man hätte besser die vorhandenen Fahrten ausdünnen sollen als komplett auf einige Züge zu Verzichten. . Die erste Deutsche Strecke die ich mir nicht kaufe. München Augsburg war auch eine Katastrophe damals auf PS4.

 

RoadCraft is coming out on May 20th. I'd rather invest my money in this game. My slow PS5 will probably be able to play this game.

 

with so many great games on the market plus here DLCs I am reminded each and every time I dont have an Austrian salary lol

 

No they shouldn't, as they could upgrade the hardware and take advantage of what they have been missing. But with TSW being TSW, once you buy this DLC (TSW5: S-Bahn yadda yadda), even if you will upgrade to Gen 10 in the future (PS6 or whatever Xbox will come up with) you will not enjoy your TSW5 DLC in its full glory, because at that point we will have TSW8 or whatever, and you will need to buy that to take advantage of the upgrades. It's like with Levenmouth Rail Link - if you bought FIFE for TSW4 waiting for that update to come, then bad luck - you need to buy TSW5 to take advantage of that. All fine if you picked up the free upgrade, but if you were in a coma and just came out of it - you need to spend money. That is why DTG's flawed model of constant DLC forks with each passing iteration is so ridiculous, nothing ever gets properly upgraded backwards.

How do you mean? When you buy a route on the Xbox to play it on Gen8, and it has missing layers, etc., the moment you upgrade your hardware to Gen9 you get all the bells and whistles you have been missing. Surely PlayStation situation is the same? If not, that is Sony's bull****, not Dovetail's, as Sony loves to charge for things it shouldn't.

Not necessarily - if you buy a PC and want to play this through Microsoft Store, then you keep what you have. But, interestingly, despite multiple questions posted here we still don't know what timetable will be available for PC players who have the game through Microsoft Store. Can we PLEASE have this answered DTG Alex ? I have a powerful laptop, I just prefer playing on console, but I could play this on PC at no extra cost. If I REALLY need to, I mean.

I advise you to take a look at how traffic flows through the city in a 12-year old game called GTA5, and take a look at cars' behavior in TSW before saying things about games "faking" things and "simulating to the smallest detail".

 

That’s a kick in the shorts for next gen players. I understand dtg can’t into optimization but same price for hundreds services less is wild.

 

English please!

Well Roadcraft has moved the tech requirements substantially higher than Snowrunner, even though graphically they don’t look much different. I couldn’t even get the Roadcraft demo to run beyond a slide show on my PC. I believe Saber are mandating a minimum of a 6Gb GPU VRAM for it.

 

Ludicrous. Most of us have invested hundreds and hundreds of pounds in this game. Optimise the game instead of churning out dlc. First time I won't be buying day 1.
The only option to get the full experience is to buy everything again for pc. Thanks for the slap in the face DTG.
At least let us decide with layer selector.

 

What a way to treat your customers. No one from DTG have taken their time to comment and don’t they look at the forums??? There are so many frustrated players who have spend a lot of money during the years and this is the thanks we get??????? They won’t get a penny from me anymore

 

Ahh.. I see the problem, your using 'girl maths' and counting something already paid for as a 'free upgrade' - yes I got all the included content when I upgraded to a PS5 but the point is that I didn't get anything for free.. I just got what I had already paid for from the beginning, and if I'd not upgraded I'd not have gotten what I paid for.. and in that instance then I would have absolutely paid for a lesser experience and the fact a whole new $700 gaming console was required to access what I'd already paid for is the point.

I've never disagreed with that, but you fail to see that the two are exactly the same.. the reduced timetable for PS5 is the same as 8th gen reductions... Regards of WHY it was done it is paying money and not receiving the complete experience. And if that would entitle a 9th gen user to a discount in this case then logically it does for the other.

And if you feel like being told there are 8th gen reductions before buying it is enough of a defence - well they've just told us there are 9th gen reductions (again regardless of why) so that's enough of a defence here as well.

 

Some feel the "don't like it then don't buy it" is a cop out but in this instance that's exactly what I'll be doing.

I don't like the fact that after upgrading to get the full experience I won't be able to on this route - so I'll vote with my wallet, not buy it, and wait for MCA.

DTG may yet decide to release both timetables to 9th gen and let us decide if/when that happens I'll reevaluate my choice

 

I do see where you are coming from, but I disagree with this. To me it is similar to buying any game when you have a potato PC. You can only maybe run it full HD on Low, though you did pay for a piece of software that some can run on 4K Ultra. Your experience is different because of your setup, not because of the software's capabilities. You don't go to Steam arguing that you should pay half the price, as you only can take advantage of Low settings. Or, say, you have crappy internet and can't play multiplayer, so you demand paying half price for the experience as you only play campaign. That is not comparable to the situation here.

I would much rather have full timetable that I can toggle on/off. I could turn layers off until I have a reduced one to make the game stable on PS5/XSX, and when i move to Gen10 I could just turn everything on and it would work. But the way DTG handles their stuff is that once this route gets a reduced timetable for Gen9 it will never get updated for Gen10, because they will only fix the fork for this DLC for the future game, as in TSW8 Compatible: S-Bahn, and not TSW5, 6, and 7. Assuming new hardware will be out by then.

 

Were getting bogged down on the specifics, when the point was that once/if you offer a discount for one you would have to offer the other. And then where does it end.

There are people who say that there should be discounts on shorter routes when they come out because the route is, not as long as Shap or not as well polished as Blackpool or doesn't include a new train or etc etc. as well as for reducing the timetable and layers.

There are quite a few things that some feel are discount worthy and to offer it for this and then none of the other reasons would be (imo) corporate suicide.

I maybe picked the wrong example with 8th/9th gen.

 

I’m sorry but the Xbox sx and ps5 are not weak machines, not at all.

This falls squarely on the capability, willingness and care that dtg wish to express, or in this case not.

DTG are killing themselves slowly. Trust is eroding. The months past the tsw5 release have been the most negative in ways of feedback and sentiment I’ve ever seen with the Gronigen route being the only minor positive.

I said a while ago that dtg will keep doing the bare minimum and will even go beyond that if they are allowed to get away with it.

It’s up to you all to not let them get away with it.

 

Well said and DTG saying nothing in this forum just shows that they dont care about their loyal customers. Let the wallet talk and dont buy this dlc

 

I’m sure in a thread a while back when I expressed how much I was enjoying TSW (might have been 4 at that point) on the PS5, Matt actually expressed that it is a very competent piece of hardware equal to if not better than the PC’s many of us are still running.

 

As console player, this is perhaps the lowest point in the entire existence of the TSW franchise in my opinion. I'm hugely disappointed that Gen 9 gets a reduced timetable only - and while I was very much looking forward to this route, it now doesn't interest me at all.

Honestly, what direction is this game going, especially for us console players (which not forgetting, makes up the largest percentage of the player base). I mean, a reduced timetable for Frankfurt S-Bahn on Gen 9, with not even any difference between Series X and S, the BR 194/E94 and Manchester Community not even going to be on Gen 8 as examples etc, plus the constant blurry textures overall - it's a mess and is pushing the most loyal and valuable players further away.

While I'm no tech expert, I honestly didn't think it would be so soon that Gen 9 starts getting reduced timetables compared with PC. Yes, PC may have much superior performance, as seen already with Frankfurt-Fulda, but, it begs the question of if consoles were struggling already with a Frankfurt route, why on earth would they follow with exactly another one while the core is like it is - makes no sense!

Echoing what others have said here already, present opportunity for a full timetable to those who wish on Gen 9. Regarding the Frankfurt S-Bahn reduced timetable for Gen 9, I just really hope this isn't the new normal going forward. Otherwise TSW might as well just become a PC-only platform game...

 

It’s just cause and effect.

It’s not that the consoles aren’t capable, they are!

The problem is resource. I’ve been banging this particular drum for years, and even most recently - dtg have a finite amount of resource and they are choosing to spend it unwisely releasing tons of dlc and new yearly iterations of the game rather than putting that time into fixing serious issues that plague the software.

And that’s it. In UX we do a test with customers. We give them a hundred dollars, and a set of features or topics. They have to lay down the amount of money on the areas that are crucial to them. They can choose to spread it or concentrate in main areas. The point being, it’s crucial to identify those key areas.

Well dtgs choices are basically to go for the short term cash grab over long term customer satisfaction and it’s going to cause a downfall.

 

I knew the timetable for Series S would be reduced, and therefore I wouldn't be buying this. Just like I haven't (intentionally) bought any other route with a reduced timetable. But, I never expected this!

For those wondering if it makes a difference, it absolutely does. When I drive FTF it feels empty, and this feeling is accentuated by reading all the interesting things others are discovering, that don't exist on Series S.

There is the layer selection tool. There are separate timetables for routes like SEHS and NYT. To be honest, I always run the full-fat timetables on Series S and there is not much difference in performance, even when Series S accidentally received the NYT freight layer! I would have liked to see a little more creativity here to come up with a better solution.

At least the players can make an informed decision. Series S players were never even told about FTF until much too late after release, and even then only after we kept asking.

 

Completely agree with you!

 

The key thing is better optimization even if it means more work and less profit for DTG.

 

This really sums up the two bigger issues. They kept this latest kick in the guts relegated to the end of the article, 2 days after the stream. DTG are constantly pulling this same stunt with various platforms. They’re not transparent at all & seem to let it get as late as possible before they tell anyone what the crack is.

The second thing is that the layer selector exists & this is a prime example of what it should be used for. Maybe I don’t want to waste the one layer I would get on that particular ICE.

That’s of course pushing aside the fact that DTG haven’t touched on optimisation in any significant way. They are seemingly dependent purely on using raw power to run TSW, with no care for actually making sure it runs well.

Time & time again DTG faces a dilemma & their go to reaction is to act like no other dev has had those issues. DLCs not mounting, game size limitations on PS, sound issues on Xbox, graphical issues on Xbox, issues within UE4. DTG are constantly digging themselves into holes & then playing the victim card asif there was no way to prevent or solve an issue. Console builds & UE4 are basically a cornerstone of console gaming, the way they’ve screwed up optimisation of it so bad, is astounding.

The whole defensive act of DTG not having resources to bother developing their game to a good standard is utter nonsense, you can’t treat a multimillion pound developer which has a yearly release & then proceeds to release multiple content packs through the year, for the same cost as the base game, like an indie dev. They’ve got a full on conveyer belt operation going with a very well established production company above them.

I don’t know if it’s just a competency issue or that they’re guarding cashflow like a dragon with a pile of gold, but TSW5 has seen nothing but a continuous decline in quality. This situation is just HMA all over again. Matt’s even throwing out the same ‘yeah well look to add the layers in if we can sort optimisation out’, as he did back when that released.

I genuinely hope this release marks a decline in revenue for DTG, seems like the only way they will actually do something about their shoddy development. Then again maybe we’ll just get gaslit again & they’ll say there isn’t enough interest in S-Bahn content.

 

The deafening silence from DTG in this thread is very telling as well.

They know they can't defend this so they're hoping we'll "have our tantrum" and then calm down by the 20th and buy it anyway at full-price like good little boys and girls.

Meanwhile, whatever (probably large) % of players who don't follow these forums will likely have no idea they're buying a clearly inferior product- is there any disclaimer on the Xbox or PS store page, like "warning! You're only getting 40% of the PC product for the same price!"....somehow i doubt it.

This is what DTG think of their customers. Vote with your wallets.

 

So I watched a video from Train Sim Society, and apparently they mentioned on the roadmap stream that they are working on performance, particularly with relation to consoles. Fair play if so, and that changes how I feel a bit, but why not communicate that better?

 

Oh that’s really nice ! Reduced timetable for current-gen, even with a huge discount I won’t pay for this route. By the way, if the timetable is reduced then why not doing the same for the price for console users ?

Anyway I’m talking for nothing, typical DTG treating the symptoms but not the cause. Reducing the timetables is now a pitiful excuse to not optimize the game at all, which is the biggest issue right now especially with TSW5 which is in my opinion the worst iteration at the moment. Very classy to penalize a huge part of your console playerbase but once again you don’t care.

 

Fewer layers, fewer players, fewer payers.

A little rhyme for DTG to remember when they don’t take console issues seriously when they first appear and then when they get out of hand have to cut the content instead of having a decent core for the console platforms and the way they work. They seem to be springing into action now so hopefully things will improve. Maybe they have already noticed a downturn in console revenue even before they started cutting the layers on routes and this is not going to make things better for them.

They will be taking a hit on gen 8 but they surely can’t afford a hit on gen 9 as well. I mean, we can see how disillusioned Xbox players have been for a long time now. The accountants must have noticed too. If they haven’t already, they will. People will stop spending money.

So, hopefully this cutting of content for platforms that should be quite capable of handling it uncut will be a temporary measure. We’ll see.

 

Having a reduced timetable available is not the issue. Not giving us a choice wether to use the full or reduced timetable is. Warn me upfront, so I can decide for myself how to optimize performance (by using reduced timetable or manually switching layers on and off).

 

For years we've been encouraged to expand our collection as layers populate routes. Now we're in a situation where we've naively bought into this. As an owner of every German route I was hoping to have a packed timetable which really comes alive.
DTG bang on constantly about this route needs that route for such and such a layer etc. Now we've bought them all they say sorry we didn't think this through. The game can't cope.

And while all this is happening, routes are getting bigger. It wont be long until the 64gb dlc limit rears it's head again.
If a route requires more than 64gb of dlc in total (routes or locos) then the ps5 won't load them. I bet 100% that DTG haven't been working on a solution for this going forward. They've got round it for now by allowing all dlc to be shown, but they haven't (to my knowledge) got around the issue of actually loading more than 64gb at a time to run a route.

Interesting and testing times ahead. I love that game but there is no way I'm paying for reduced content and I can't afford to purchase everything again for pc, let alone buy a pc, so DTG need to think carefully going forward. I won't be the only one who feels that this might be the end of my time with the game.

 

Most of DTG's TSW income is from consoles. I doubt they're "ditching" them. They would immediately go bankrupt.
I THOUGHT I heard that it was temporary reduction until it was optimized (like other DLC has done), but could be wrong.
A better solution would be to up front send it all out and then (as others have said) let people "trim" layers off as they like.
However, it'll still get attacked either way because people who could reduce layers won't WANT to and will cry bloody murder.

The "waiting for new console generations" excuse doesn't make sense either since that's likely to be late 2026 into 2027 before we'll see a PS 6. Similar for the unnamed next XBox. That's way too far out to be "phasing out" existing consoles with nothing to replace them.

I wonder if it really IS the limitation of the console platforms? Or if it's some sort of optimization inherent in them?
It makes no sense they'd simply not port more services to consoles and then everyone is happy if it were easy.
That's irrational.
So there must be some obstacle to it.
Assuming they're doing irrational things for no reason just isn't helpful.

People always have a reason to do things, even if they don't say them out loud.
There's no reason for them to "ditch consoles" when it's most of their income for TSW, and it likewise doesn't make sense they'd give a "reduced timetable" if they had a full timetable sitting there already they could just click to include.
In fact it takes a little bit MORE work to have two versions so why would they work harder.... to make less money and make customers unhappy for...no valid reason?

What is their gain?

I know it's cool to attack DTG just because and assume all sorts of malice with no valid reason but... just stop and ask yourself WHY they would do any of that? Assume YOU are in charge of DTG and did those things... what would be MAKING you take those decisions?

So far the only think I can see that would explain it would be a limit on current console performance.
That doesn't mean they're "giving up on them" (since they are most of their income) but it's a lot easier in the long run (if that's the case) to HAVE the better timetables existing on PC (and at least make those people happy) and then in 2026/2027 when new consoles come out, just release a simple update to the existing console users so they can fully use the timetable you already took the time to build on the new systems.
The alternative would be
1) NOT have those layers for PC players, making EVERYONE use the "reduced timetable" until 2027.
Then you'd have all the PC gamers angry that they missed out on POSSIBLE content.
Unless I guess you didn't tell anyone and "hid" the full timetable, but if that gets out... PR disaster.

 

To everyone complaining about the "reduced" timetable, I ask why should PC players be limited to the confines of console limitations?

Perhaps DTG should have marketed it differently and referred to the console timetable as the standard timetable and offer PC players an enhanced timetable for those of us with the hardware to run it?

 

I didn't read all of this but why do I have to put myself in their shoes? Why is that my job? I'm the paying customer lol.

Why can't they just explain what's going on if there's a valid reason? It's all, "we're looking into it", when this version of the game has been out over 6 months and they're already full-speed-ahead on the next iteration.

Absent some good explanation i'll just continue to assume the problem is rampant mismanagement.

I've yet to see evidence to the contrary.

 

Was really hyped for this route. But reduced timetable on a current gen console is a no go. First the delay of the SKA timetable, now only reduced timetable. What's next? Shortened routes on console? PC only releases? You're doing everything to frustrate your customers more and more! Optimize your game! And that does not mean release TSW6 with new bugs and leave 5 as it is as done with 4!

 

Probably because everyone knows that had this route released for TSW4 it would have worked fine with the full timetable on PS5, but because of the memory leak problems introduced in TSW5 console players will be stuck with a lesser experience.

Would you rather stick your head in the sand and say you're alright because your mighty hardware can power past the problems in the code?, or would you rather DTG actually fixed the game?

 

Because that's what adults do?
It's childish to assume only your feelings matter, the world revolves around you and that no one else in the world has personal motivations. They ONLY exist to please you and must share your motivations.
That's something most kids grow out of pretty young.

Plus, it's just plain useful to navigate life because if you assume everyone must think like you do, you'll be often confused and angry assuming things incorrectly constantly because other people are not you.

 

"Everybody knows"..... do they?
Or did you just make that up?

 

finally, a voice of reason using actual thinking instead of just going on emotional berserk... it's like conspiracy theories vs actual reality - complicated stuff as to why some shadowy entities mean us bad, making up increasingly convoluted supposed schemes they allegedly use to hurt us poor souls vs actual reality which is in vast majority of cases actually quite simple and boring

 

word

 

Would it though? Both the Xbox and PS5 are now 5 years old and PC's have moved forwards considerably in that time whilst both consoles have remained virtually static. Plus 600 odd services (what is offered to consoles) is basically the higher end of routes with just a handful of exceptions.

 

I sympathize with you console players (including in a previous reply post I criticized DTG for limiting 9th gen consoles as if they were 8th gen consoles and I also emphasized that when I discovered TSW it was through TSW2020 on a PS4) but me being limited by a problem that is clearly DTG's fault is not reasonable... you don't want consoles together with PC to have the full timetable, you prefer that we on PC have the reduced timetable just like you on console so that you feel better, pathetic

 

Well, everybody who has listened to Matt on the roadmaps explain that the texture blur is caused by a memory leak, and that it impacts routes with larger timetables, and that their engineers are examining the delta between TSW4 and TSW5 to see what they did that introduced the problem, yeah, those people know.

Of course if come the summer DTG actually work out the problem and fix it, and go back and provide the full timetable at that point, then I will happily buy the route. But until they actually fix the game the choice is between a reduced experience, or not buying the route at all, I will be keeping hold of my money until it is fixed.

 

PC players get better sales therefore don’t pay as much. Why should console players pay full price, have worse sales compared to Steam and therefore fund development for PC players to have better gameplay should be the question you’re asking. I will be voting with my wallet on this one.

I do wonder though have DTG gone too far with things like conductor mode. I will never play conductor mode and I never roam through the passenger carriages, would cutting this out improve the memory issues? I’m not an expert, I have no idea. I just want to drive the trains that make this game enjoyable. If I don’t have full timetables, I won’t buy the route.

I’d only ask other console players to also show their unhappiness with what they buy. DTG couldn’t operate on PC alone with the income that PC alone would bring in with the number of sales they have and sometimes up to 90% off.