Upcoming Release Frankfurt S-bahn: Coming Soon!

Well done. That will show them.

 

Easy skip on this route, and so I have all DE DLC’s already and was looking forward to this one - by having lot of variety thanks to all DLCs I already own. Preview stream showed that console version is missing all of the rolling stock layers.

You really should optimize performance, AI traffic to not have any physics or anything, just objects hovering at predefined tracks to save memory resources.. wake up DTG.

 

Obviously you DONT understand people are unhappy. Your posts convey this.

 

I understand that, with the complexity of the route itself, consoles will never get the same timetable as PC. So I'm ok with having less playable services. But difference is too substantial. I expected the nr of playable services a bit closer to what it is on pc. 40% less playable services is hard blow, but ok, I can live with that.
What I have more difficulty with is the fact that all AI layers are scrapped for the consoles as well. After hearing this on the stream, I asked Matt to visit Frankfurt Hbf during rush hour when he was playing on his Xbox. He obliged, and as I feared, this resulted a massive difference in feel. It was 7:20 in game and where on PC the station is full of life with trains everywhere, on console it was crickets and thumbleweed. I think there were 3 trains in the station and that was all... Removing all AI layers has left this route absolutely desolate.
There's no way I'll be paying full price for the route as it is right now... The difference in what you get between the two platform is just too staggeringly big to justify paying the same/full price.

 

Of course we (PC players) do understand. We're consumers too, and occasionally we get the short end of the stick in other games, so we know how it feels.

So, fair dinkum, what do you think would be a fair price for the console version of the route, keeping in mind that most of the development costs of a route go into the research of the track layout, building the assets and programming the safety systems and interlocks (which are all present in the console version too).

As for others (not FallenAngel00me but for example Kamaratko just a few posts above this one) who keep going on about how unfair it is that the console version doesn't get the full time table (regardless of price) and think this is achievable by "optimisation":

As Matt and others (including myself) have explained quite a bit in this topic alone, the limitations imposed on the console version of the route are primarily to do with those consoles' limitations in memory and CPU power. 8th and 9th gen consoles come equipped with quite capable GPUs for their price point, but the CPU in even the PS5 Pro is 6 year old technology, that has been deliberately slowed down to save costs on power consumption and heat dissipation necessities).

You can't fault DTG for the hardware that others make. I get that console players would rather see the full timetable, but that's not feasible from a technology standpoint. There simply isn't enough RAM in either of the current consoles to hold all the trains needed for the expanded time table, not are there enough CPU cycles to handle all the AI routines needed to drive all those trains on the tracks at once.

Simplifying models would still eat up cycles, and still wouldn't fit in RAM.

The only thing I can see as a meet-me-in-the-middle solution, is that the route itself gets simplified on consoles. In the past, when TSW just came out, some track you could see as a player, wasn't drivable track at all - no trains could drive on it - it was just a texture there to raise the illusion of a yard.

You could do that on Frankfurt Hbf, and have a static object version of several classes of trains sit on top of these dummy tracks. Those trains wouldn't be accessible to the player or AI passengers and can't drive (not even as AI traffic).

This would at least give the illusion of a busy station.

 

Nah, I don’t buy the narrative that it’s the consoles fault. It’s the way the game is built that’s the issue. There’s tons of games that look amazing on consoles that have heavier loads than this.

It feels like this is the latest in a line of narratives that’s aimed at taking responsibility away from the product.

The routes used to be pretty good but this iteration and the additions they’ve put in have been cobbled together and now they’ve left themselves too much tech debt and so rather than peel back the layers (I mean it’s been months and months and months, sometimes years of issues) they are starting to chop bits out to cope.

This game has got two years at best, left in it because no one is upgrading anytime soon to new consoles.

 

I understand ... literally more than half of this thread is MIRED with post filled with discontent, even after Matt's comments which were pretty packed with information

and based on your other comments after this one, you literally choose not to believe what Matt said, cos you know better

*grabs popcorn and sits back*

 

Matt is an employee of dovetail games. Do you not think statements are made all the time that skirt around truth? For goodness sake man I worked for a large global software company. We did it all the time. We would never be completely transparent on what is happening, it’s more than our jobs worth.

He is not going to turn around and say for example that they haven’t done a good job optimising or that they spend resources elsewhere is he?

Honestly some of you are totally green…

 

They could deffo do with a few ux designers. The layers for example, is not user friendly. It’s not easy to understand what layers are what. Why can’t the layers just show what the unit is and what dlc it is simply?

 

I do, but I'm an experienced developer. I know what it's like to balance the resources available to you at runtime (i.e., the hardware that the customer will use to run my application) against the demands of the task at hand.

Quite a few games out there do handle traffic in a convincing way, but that's traffic that runs more like an animation, not AI. That traffic has a simple goal: run circles along a predefined path, only stop when traffic in front of you stops or if the traffic light is red, and flee onto the curb if certain variables are met (car is being shot at, player comes crashing down the traffic jam with a tank... etc.).

Ever noticed how cars simply slam into you or each other in GTA V and Cyberpunk 2077 if conditions are different to what they've been programmed with? With "AI" cars causing complete traffic jams?

And perhaps most convincingly (if you're open to it): those games I mention feature:
a: relatively simple models (one train in TSW equals about 20 cars in GTA V or CP2077)
b: a lot more dense traffic in the PC versions of those games compared to the console versions (just like TSW does in the route we're discussing here).

Personally, I think the backlash DTG is getting from this route (and if that translates to less sales of the route on consoles) will mean that we won't be getting more routes of this scale anytime soon.

But hey, if that means more Dutch routes - I'm all for it.

[/QUOTE]

The demise of TSW (and TSC before it) has been prophesied quite a few times before.

 

I mean, you don't need to look far - when it comes to Unreal Engine 4, virtually every game has always had worse performance on PC than on consoles, because on PC that entire generation had to put up with shader compilation stutter that wasn't present on the console versions of most games due to the shaders being precompiled as standard for the fixed hardware platform.

 

dude, I am not stupid... I just dont jump into assumptions... and just because I work/worked somewhere, I dont make assumptions about other companies, even in similar field

to me it sounds like whatever Matt says here, however detailed and reasonable, you will just go on as if nothing was said because you know everything better, apparently

so to reiterate, I am neither stupid nor naive, I just dont assume things without actual proof or sound reasoning... I know things are said in a certain way, but I dont go jumping into conclusions like everything is complete BS

 

[EDIT - Jan - Insensitive] Not alot he can do i guess but would love one of the higher ups to stop hiding away and actually interact and get involved here on the forums. Being brought by this French company a year or 2 ago was the start of the downfall

 

The demise of TSW (and TSC before it) has been prophesied quite a few times before.[/QUOTE]
heh recently I was looking for some info on some bug or some other piece of info and came across a thread from 2021 which was almost carbon copy... and it was sth like alerter not working or sth like that... and a couple comments there were like spelling apocalypse for TSW

 

The demise of TSW (and TSC before it) has been prophesied quite a few times before.[/QUOTE]

You can’t be worried about things like this. There’s lots of people who blindly support because the alternative is nothing, but what good is that if there’s no quality?

Im not doubting what you are saying, but this game is in no way optimised for consoles, you can absolutely tell by way of its progression over the years and the stumbling blocks it hits

Matt I appreciate you taking the time out to respond. I don’t think anyone questions desire or effort you clearly have passion for the subject matter. What you can’t control is the business, how it operates and resources.

I feel that’s where the issues lie, as it’s usually 99 percent of any business that’s want get maximum profit from less cost.

 

You ain’t getting that proof that’s the point. You are taking things on face value which can’t be trusted.

 

oh come on guys, you act as if it was some Illuminati type of shenanigans going on here with big-DTG relentlessly going after your souls

 

TSW on Console ( any of them ) is actually a waste of money from this point on.
All you get is either a blurry mess, or a cut down experience but for the same price tag.

 

I'm sure they still have a lot to discover in terms of memory usage and optimisation. For example, I have never understood why on the route from Frankfurt to Fulda, 90% of the crashes on my ps5 have occurred in the Hanau area, which in theory should be much less demanding on memory than in the Frankfurt Hbf area as there is less traffic, fewer different types of trains coinciding at the same time, fewer scenery assets, less signalling, etc. I don't understand these things, but it seems very strange to me.

Please Matt, don't stop researching and working on all this. I think it is the biggest challenge you are facing right now because the direction of TSW depends on it.
If you don't succeed, the gap and inequalities between consoles and PC will become bigger and bigger and you might not be able to develop more demanding and complex routes in the future, which would limit a lot the possibilities and survival of this game we all love.

 

No, just how "business" works these days. But yeah, go OTT with the response. Lulz

 

Your statement about Matt is very harsh in my opinion. At the very least he’s on here trying to explain the whats and why’s of why console players are only getting a reduced timetable.

 

In other words, he doesn't keep saving it to memory, and leaves it there when he doesn't need it?

 

There's a fair bit of bashing of Matt and of DTG in a few threads right now, not just this one, but I think one fairly undeserved bit right here is over the idea of them not giving a damn about console versions, clearly that's one place where both the folks who care about the actual output of their work, and the money people in the top brass are 100% in alignment, that they want an end product on consoles that's not going to continually haemorrhage players. Maybe you personally disagree on the specific choices of compromises they're making in trying to accomplish that, and that's valid, but at the end of the day, it's about making something that sells. Yes, on the one hand that can be seen by short termist financial folks as "minimum viable product", but the folks working on it who'd be liable to be the ones laid off if the higher ups pulled the plug, they know that it's important to deliver something people actually think is worth it.

 

Hi Matt,

Speaking of spawning a train into the timetable, like an ICE 1 or a cargo train, will the game still run fine, or should we expect crashes?

 

there you go

 

Would it be possible to leave Unreal Engine and creating/finding another Version with is working better like MFS 2024 or a Open World Racing Game Like Forza Horizon or The Crew Motorfest?

 

As a console player, first impression and feelings were, yeah I am very disappointed. However, after yesterday's preview stream, yeah the stations look a bit empty okay is not the best but the overall route looks nice, I like it at least. And also I get the explanations from Matt and it makes more sense to me now. Only thing that I really find annoying is that there are no IC services on the route. (I read the explanation from Matt so I get it too, just like the 101 a lot) But overall after yesterday I must say it is a good route I personally like it.

 

I don't understand the discussion. You say that 40% less traffic means the route should be cheaper; that doesn't make sense. When buying a route, other DLCs don't affect the price, as the price includes the route and the included trains. Anything else is extra. The same applies to RRO, where the BR 422 and 185 are included, but other DLCs are not. That's why we get from the route for what we pay for.

 

Thanks!

 

Is the extra 6GB memory in the Series X and PS5 just used for more detailed textures? I would have assumed it would also allow larger timetables etc. than the Series S.

 

[EDIT - Jan - Quarrelsome]

 

No it's not. Of course he's told what to say and do by his boss or the board and so on ;D

 

The floor is my bowl

 

While this may be an obvious suggestion, what about completely purging from RAM the tile that has been left but one? I'd guesstimate that 90% of player services are one way, and there should be no need to keep the previous tile but one, perhaps two on a staraight line route, in memory as it will never be referred to again in that session except in exceptional circumstances like someone arsing around and reversing the train back 2 stations

 

I still think, but it's my subjective opinion, that you should have left both timetables, but you should have said that only Reduced guarantees trouble-free operation...... but that's just how I would understand it, so don't stone me for it

 

And what happens if you get to Frankfurt, for example, and cross to the other end and take the next service back? I know that almost no one operates it, but why not, is that an option? Will it then load in the opposite direction?

 

[EDIT - Jan - Quarrelsome]

 

But the customer ultimately decides what the "minimum viable product" is and right now a BUNCH of customers are saying this product (at least on consoles) at this price isn't meeting that standard.

It doesn't matter whether Matt's a nice guy (which seems obviously true), or that i'm an a-hole (also obviously true).

I'll just say only DTG decided that this route has to come out next week and not next month or next year. Why not delay until it's ready for all platforms?

Because it never will be. It seems clear they bit off more than they can chew for various reasons.

The only solution seems to be a significant discount for the console version. 40% fewer services calls for a 40% discount but there is a new train, so maybe 25% would be fair?

 

Can we leave the funny images to Fred?, at least his make sense.

 

ah well, that dad joke didnt sit well here, it seems O ... anyway, I will buy the route cos it's German content and there is never enough beeping inferno to me

 

got annoyed and ultimately carried away, so my bad looking forward to the route, of course, as I love expanding my German collection

 

This is, yet again, an incredibly bizarre thread. I don't think anyone here, including the DTG reps, are saying that the state of timetable on consoles is great. It is however, what you get currently.

The amount of people who keep using the word optimisation as if it is some magic bullet is staggering. A news flash for you all, this is a form of optimisation. Removing the excess so that the software can perform better. It not ideal, but it is one of the most immediate remedies while more complex things are looked into. Something a lot of people don’t seem to realise is that simulators have always been pretty poor when it comes to performance. This is not to say that things cannot get better, there are always optimisations that can be made, it’s just that at some point you will run into an upper limit and when dealing with complex calculations for things like physics, that limit is gonna become apparent much sooner. In order to mitigate it, you have to sacrifice some of the more prominent parts of the experience.

For those who are constantly comparing this to other games, you have to understand that it is quite literally in the name of the game. “Simulator”. This means that a great deal more has to be calculated and accurately executed. Things need to behave in a very specific and reproducible manner. Unlike a game such as GTA 5, where cars and pedestrians can load in 20 meters ahead of you with some basic parameters and a spline to follow, the entire route has to be accurately run at all times, as Matt said. Within this, I’m sure there are further things that could be optimised but, the fundamental task is always going to be more resource intensive than it is in traditional games. In any game, whether it be Train Sim World and OMSI 2 or Grand Theft Auto 5 and Cyberpunk 2077, one of the first big optimisations you can do is limit the diversity and amount of AI in a scene. An unfortunate consequence of this in TSW, is that the “scene” in this case is the timetable itself. You cannot just unload the models and call it a day, the actual AI needs to be removed from the timetable in order to gain overall improvements.

I think there is also an optics issue at play here. While there are objectively barren areas such as Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, the rest of the route felt reasonably populated to me. If it wasn’t for the fact that Hauptbahnhof is such an incredibly busy station with a diverse range of trains and that the timetable itself is named “reduced”, I really do think most people would not be complaining. As someone who has been playing TSW since day 1 and TSC before that, I’m used to stations and routes being somewhat empty by default. Up until relatively recently, most TSW UK routes had plenty of empty main stations, New Street and Piccadilly anyone? It is a bit LOVE, but first and foremost, I am there to drive my train. The population of AI that runs out of bounds is secondary to that. I do genuinely think that if the Full timetable was renamed to something like “PC Enhanced” a lot of you wouldn’t care as much.

Console players are not being treated like second class citizens as some of you seem to be making out, you are just unfortunately going to limited by the tech. Being blunt for a second, Gen 8 support really should go across the board. This isn’t some PC elitist take, it’s just being realistic. These machines are now over a decade old and do not have the capacity to be running complex physics simulations. I don’t think any console generation has had this much continued support and it’s really being stretched to the max. Gen 9 is of course much better but, it is still going to be less responsive when the fundamental tech inside is around 5 years old now. If I was still running on my GTX 1070 and 4th Gen i5, I wouldn’t be demanding that the product be cheaper because I’m unable to run the full experience, I’d either run the full timetable and crash a lot (something that console companies will reasonably not allow) or I’d compromise and run the less intensive timetable. There is of course something to be said for DLC pricing in general, but that’s a separate issue.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be dissatisfied with what is on offer, I do however think that you need to look at why this is what’s available. TSW is one of the few simulator games that has a console version and there is a reason for that. I’d still take a slightly less rounded product than no product at all and if you ultimately disagree then just don't buy it, there's no need to go round and round in circles after you've made your point.

 

If I install TSW on the PC via the Xbox app, can I run the full timetable?