Are they really working on a fix or just sitting it out for the release of new next gen consoles? Just like it happenend to gen 8 in case of the route HMA. At that time they were always talking about working on a core fix but nothing ever happened untill the players could switch to gen 9. And now it happens again, first since TSW5 the blurry textures and for the new route a reduced timetable just like HMA. So thats why I am very skeptical that there is coming a fix in the next time. They are just working on releasing new stuff instead of solving this issue. We can just hope for the best but I don't see it coming.
I perfectly understand the reasons behind the reduced timetable on the upcoming route, but at the same time I still feel like I’m being shafted. The reduced timetable for S-Bahn really didn’t sell it for me and Frankfurt looked like a ghost town, compared to the PC timetable. If this is the trend now going forward for 9th Gen, it’s really going to put a lot of customers off buying new routes. I wish the route every success, but I will not be buying it until it’s like 60% off!
Matt have said they are working on a fix, at least to extend timetable on consoles, but don't happens soon
Matt in another thread yesterday did a typical DTG waffle (paraphrased)… well we’d like a fix and we’re looking into it and there might be a fix in the future but unless we mention it explicitly don’t expect it anytime soon. So your intuition is almost certainly correct. Cory Doctorow, the tech commenter dude, came up with a term for describing how pretty much every digital technology based platform, service and product is getting progressively worse. He calls it ‘enshi*tification’ and with the bug-riddled subpar mess that is TSW5, DTG has officially joined the club. DTG is treating the TSW franchise like a hedge fund management firm treats a business it has taken over…maximizing shareholder returns over the shortest possible timeframe with no consideration given to quality, customer preferences or the business’s longevity. Stringing customers along, bombarding them with marketing babble and PR whilst flogging buggy, downgraded DLC at eye watering prices is, in the eyes of DTG and its parent company, a feature not a bug. They have an effective monopoly on rail simulators on console and PC and that makes it easier for them to shake down their customers who have nowhere else to go if they want to play a similar game. Welcome to capitalism in the 2020s where every grift and barely disguised scam goes and very few companies, particularly in the digital realm, care anymore about quality and producing the best product they can. Can’t wait for the limited edition gold plated TSW meme coin - free with the deluxe extra plus edition of TSW7!
Couldn’t have put it better. Delightful. I think a few on here need to read this over and over to understand it’s not about console capability but resource and cost vs profit.
With respect, I don’t think getting personal against Matt is going to help matters. I’m grateful that he has started posting on the forums again and responding to feedback after being absent due to the flak aimed in his direction. Reading between the lines, I get the view that despite being EP his hands are tied by the Bagmen above him whether that comes to which routes are chosen as DLC or the amount of money and programming time allocated to fixes. I’m not saying that to be sycophantic or a fanboy, far from it, but I for one actually think we should be keeping the forum relatively conducive to DTG staff members coming on and answering the questions. Not being kept in the dark for several months as at the beginning of the year.
Yes I think so because the performance issue exists since the release of TSW5 and there is still no fix in sight. And now downscaling the first route is the next step of starting a negative trend on consoles as it was on gen 8.
It doesn't necessarily indicate a trend, but: TSW5 was released one year after TSW3. One year after TSW4, we got TSW5. One DLC was released as Gen9 only. Then others followed. Both of these are trends which started from one thing. So, going by that, who's to say this isn't the same?
I’m not for being personal with anyone at DTG either, but I have 2 main gripes with this whole ordeal. The first is that they chose to wait until after the stream to drop this bombshell, and even then it was an afterthought sentence in an article. The second is essentially the topic of this thread, we’re seeing the exact same language used with HMA, now regulars probably know better than to believe a word of it, but it’s just poor behaviour to get anyone’s hopes up. Matt has specifically said it’s more work for them to make 2 timetables rather than one, so IMO if they were going to get us on par with the PC TT, it would have been done already, we’ve seen DTG prefer avoid any significant work on content after its released, there has to be a firestorm on the forum for that to happen & whilst that may happen here, it’s not out of the good faith of DTG. We see this behaviour time & time again, a poor decision is made, someone from DTG comes to the forum & puts on the sheep’s clothing. DTG & Focus have been very clever the last few months in terms of making money, we’ve probably just had the busiest year ever for TSW in terms of content release. On the software side, DTG & Focus have been utter [Removed], the buildup of bugs will now be an unrecoverable debt, we already have several big releases such as FTF & WCML which need work, now they’ve added this new route to that pile. As always once it’s released we’ll see the true scope of issues within & as always we will get the same rhetoric from DTG regarding them. They’ve simply gone feral over the money TSW attracts.
Personally the S Bahn situation doesn't directly affect me as I only buy exclusively UK. (for the most part with the exception of a few US commuter routes) However, looking at the larger picture and how it may possibly affect other routes going forward, if this was to become a trend for routes on consoles that are commuter heavy I would shy away from such content which has restricted time tables. Even more so if DTG got 'comfortable' doing so I think they would alienate half of their potential sales (which rely on console players). Time will tell, but hopefully the core issues are brought under control and such issues won't be a reoccurring theme in future. But in the meantime time, if this is a sign of things to come I can see a decline in players on consoles willing to accept the 'diet coke' of time tables, I think I can speak for most players when I say they want want the 'full sugar' recipe...
Though to offset that, whereas previously I would have bought just about all the content being released, now I'm being much more selective. Didn't bother with Mildmay or the previous German release (Ludwigwotsitsname). Cardiff Network, well you know my views on that. Not bothered with the last Cargo Pack or the Athena Railtour thing. I'll be getting the Class 86 pack but mainly to support JT and for the buffet car. The E94 pack a maybe if the price isn't outrageous (I'm still predicting > £25).. Frankfurt S-Bahn looking like a pass at present, on my current PC hardware. Part of that is due to the stealth price increases on all content categories. Part frustration with the core issues though some of that can be offset to my hardware needs. Part the fact we are getting more and more content which duplicates what we already have in game (German inter-urban, UK electric bus stop). Part I find myself increasingly drawn to stuff other than TSW, the formula is starting to get old and stale.
The idea is to hook the customer into the ecosystem and once in it’s a tough gig to get out of as they are the only train sim in town. By the time customers realise the issues this software has it’s too late. You either walk away or stick with it. Some who know about it take the hit anyway because of what I said above. DTG are on to a winner either way. This Frankfurt s bahn - they knew they could release it as it is because they know people will buy it regardless because they have no choice as we can testify to a lot in here. It a really abhorrent practice. Same with the free upgrade, designed to nail you down to future content and fixes or miss out.
Regarding consoles, it's a significant difference that gen 9 has been well established, and what was developed for PC and gen 9 was becoming too taxing for gen 8, as well as the gen 8 customer base shrinking. Eventually, the returns on gen 8 versions were no longer going to be worth the time and expense of developing for it. Gen 9, however, is still the console ceiling and will be for a good while. Losing gen 9 business is money lost. As far as TSW generations, it's been said outright that releasing a new version does boost sales. The sports franchises already know this. People can complain, but it doesn't make sense to expect a company not to accept money that's willingly being thrown at them.
1: You can walk away or stick with it........ yes, easy choices. 2: Frankfurt S Bahn - the choice is buy it, or not, simples. 3: Free Upgrade - compatible with all previous DLC, you don't need to buy anything
DTG didnt need to introduce this upgrade every year. And an upgrade for what? Can’t you just build on the game? The upgrade is just a key to the door that you offer for free for a short while but the majority of the benefits are locked behind buying new routes moving forward and any future updates. Occasionally you will get an update like Koln Aachen, but people on the previous two versions can’t use it. As per it’s about marketing and buzz to generate sales rather than good solid content generating sales. I’m not aiming this at you specifically Matt, I think you are doing a service actually engaging and more companies should do so.
you can walk away from investing more money at any time, the yearly free "core" upgrade will potentially improve the core game whilst being totally backwards compatible with older TSW content. Or you can keep what you have and enjoy it. You won't LOSE anything by staying with TSW5 and not moving to 6/7/8/9 etc. You are trying to make out that in order to play a new route, for TSW6 you need to invest in something you don't want (ie buying the core again) but the core was FREE for TSW5 and it appears that it will potentially be FREE again for TSW6. So all you do thereafter is buy any DLC you personally like, and ignore those you don't. ( DTG Matt I've made a presumption here that TSW6 will have a free core upgrade path )
It was your choice from the start. No one ever forced you to buy anything. If you dislike something then dont buy it. If the yearly Tsw release trend continues and they provide another free starter pack then i dont see the problem. The paid game is only for marketing, the price itself is for the bundled routes in it and i was more than happy to pay it for the Tsw 5 routes and the upcoming Tsw 6 routes. And to pass on a route isnt easy if you are waiting for new stuff, which maybe could indicate "the fear of missing out" being more present than we might think.
Hey DTG Matt thank you for reading this and replying but thats what I wrote. We can just wait and hope for the best. The only thing we want is to know that it will really be solved at any time. A regularly feedback or a timeline / roadmap how far you are with working on the improvements would be very great. We are waiting since the release of TSW5.
Trains still flicker annoyingly on PS5. This issue was introduced in TSW 2 and has not been fixed to this day. I was playing the Koln route yesterday and static and moving trains were flickering very badly on a consistent basis. Why hasn’t this been fixed after so long?
I think the thing is that its not as easy as it seems because DTG is offering the game on various plattforms. And every plattform should be able to get the full experience. Especially when paying the same price. And yes it is your personal choice but in my case I love playing this game and I love new content so the decision of not buying or walking away is very hard.
While it was annoying to discover two days after the roadmap that the route was being nerfed for console users, to give credit where it's due I was very impressed at the amount of time spent showing the reduced timetable on an Xbox during the preview stream. Frankfurt was a ghost town with so little traffic, there isn't a single piece of AI-only traffic for console players, not even any freight wagons in the yards. It's very disappointing but at least they showed it to us, which is a step up from Mildmay which took ambassadors to highlight the blurred textures. Many game publishers wouldn't have shown any of that in advance, some even restrict streamers from showing anything negative in pre-release coverage, DTG treat us much better than that.
It was my choice form the start? When I started the game worked very well out of the box. I’ve since improved my hardware and it’s gone backwards. And it’s gone backwards because of resourcing. What’s the bigwigs at DTG towers going to choose? New dlc and instant cash or time spent on fixes at cost for no return? Pretty easy choice for the stakeholders.
There's something pretty worrying for everyone here, if this is truly a trend. Not just for consoles, but for PC as well. It's pretty clear that optimisation really has been struggling as of recent, with this instance being the worst because it's now resulted in a reduced product for Gen 9 for the first time. Say if this continues, and it's normalized/accepted as just the way it is, there'll be no incentive to take optimisation seriously, therefore problems will accumulate with more heavy routes. For now, there's no issues for PC, but I imagine that if it's normalized, it could quickly turn into a situation where only the people with incredibly high end PCs will be able to enjoy the routes on full timetable without having to do it select a reduced timetable or turn down the settings wayyy low. Maybe not now, Maybe not anytime soon. But the second it becomes accepted to do so, it will slowly creep into the coming products.
Now who’s waffling? Console fanboys crying is getting tedious now. Dont like it dont buy it. Simple really!
I agree with this here. TSW2020 to TSW2 - Switch in UE versions. TSW2020 content was planned to be left behind, but DTG fortunately went back on that decision after community feedback. Introduction of livery designer and scenario planner. Most notable addition was the introduction of steam traction towards the end of TSW2’s run. TSW2 to TSW3 - Massive overhaul the game’s lighting systems and Training centre added to core game. TSW3 to TSW4 - Mostly UI updates. Scoring 2.0, Mini HUD, Livery Designer & Scenario Planner 2.0. This definitely could’ve been a patch to TSW3, was no need for a new title. TSW4 to TSW5 - Conductor mode, route hopping, live map update, but the best one was track shadows. Again, these features could’ve been added as part of a yearly patch. The PC application is technically TSW4 in disguise, even Discord activity sees this and registers the game as TSW4. I honestly think we should still be on TSW3 at least, the features from TSW4 and TSW5 should’ve been core updates in a TS Classic style annual update with core routes for both games added in themed packs, like Rush Hour. There was no need to introduce a TSW4 until DTG needed to drop Gen8 support, which I believe console platforms would require a Gen9 exclusive title to drop support for? The free upgrade was an improvement over the paywall switch to TSW4 however, there is still the issue that everyone has to redownload all of their owned content on a yearly basis. Not everyone has fast download speeds, it’s admittedly an extremely tedious process.
Yes it was your choice and you bought the content you wanted to buy. The game changing in the future is something completely normal and for Train sim World it does not mean the content you own is changing like many other games do. One thing i never understand is the people suggesting DTG to stop producing dlcs and focus on the core and fix all its problems. If there is no DLC releases then they wont earn any money and i dont think developers live on solar power for a year or two.
I'm not getting involved in the part of who your comment is aimed at... But I will comment as a console user myself... Sorry I'm on PS5, and just because I'm on a console does that mean we deserve lower quality? No it doesn't. The technology can handle it absolutely fine if the game is put together right. If you're willing to sell a product on a platform perfectly capable of handling the game, it should run reasonably smoothly as intended. (There will be hiccups here and there, but that's the case across most platforms which will hopefully be resolved). God forbid when GTA6 is released with far more demanding specifications and runs smoothly on Gen9 consoles. I get pretty tired of this "Them & Us" attitude some PC users have, it is just not warranted where games and technology are on par with each other to run certain games. I get it with Gen8 consoles, but Gen9 is perfectly capable machinery to run these type of games (well with the exception of the XBox S)
I think that this term describes something else. More specificly, it's about how companies separate their products into tiers and make the lower ones more and more inconvenient to make sure everyone is paying the highest price they are willing to and/or to push people to the higher tiers by adding inconveniences to the lower ones. DTG isn't guilty of any of that other than maybe the early access to new yearly re-releases. What the problem is in my opinion is the core itself. First version of TSW was released in July 24 2018 so Dovetail now had close to 7 years to make the game's core rock solid and basically make it the new Train Simulator. Except it didn't happen. Instead, we got yearly re-releases under a new name, instantly forgetable DLCs and all this stuff that's not intended to be appealing in the long-term. And of course all the old glitches and shortcomings. So what I would want from Dovetail: 1.) A really good core that handles everything that's important for a train sim without issues or obvious shortcomings. 2.) A manageable selection of well thought-out routes and trains that will be well maintained to remain appealing over the years.
I think having a good fancy looking game is like the phrase having your cake and eat it. You either get a game that operates well or you get a fancy looking game that doesn't work as well, but it has all the nice features on it you want. It is a balancing act, PC has the ability to change the graphic setting, but a console is limited, the new gen 9 or gen 9.5 you can change the quality to get better looking or faster FPS, but you can't tweek it. Mildmay I cannot play, it is not enjoyable. So do DTG keep bringjng out games that don't work on consoles or do they reduce it, so it can operate on consoles at a good level? There is the "Optimization" bit and maybe that needs to be looked at and squeeze as much as they can out of the game, make that ground zero and build up from there?
As you are so knowledgable perhaps you can explain how exactly is GtA6 ‘far more demanding?’ Matt P has already posted that comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges!
Do you really need someone to explain to you why GTA6 would be more demanding? I do agree that DTG shouldn’t be expected to have the capital of rockstar, but they certainly aren’t an indie dev, especially so with Focus behind them. There is an obvious need for more investment in optimisation, QA & general dev time.
As Michael Winner would say in his commercials "Calm down dear it's only a commercial!" or in your case a "forum debate", you don't need to sound so antagonising... Anyway, does it really need explaining to you? Do you honestly think GTA6 is going to be less demanding on Gen9 console hardware then TSW5? The map, the AI interaction, the open world, the graphics... Quite literally a game changing experience that is going to set the bar beyond what we can imagine and hasn't been seen before, and it's been developed for Gen9 consoles. And you're trying to give the impression TSW5 is more demanding? Yes, it may be an 'apple and oranges' situation to an extent, but what it seems to come down to optimisation and issues that have overlapped each other with every title, or further DLC that adds it own small bugs. At the moment the Gen9 platform seems to have a literal cauldron of issues. It's be looked into with the highest priority we are assured and I completely believe that. But, your initial argument that Gen9 players are crying for no reason, and mocking them for buying something that should work smoothly in theory on completely compatible hardware is quite frankly ridiculous.
GTA6 is definitely far more demanding than TSW5, you can see it in the graphics, pedestrian AI models, lighting etc. It’s all about optimisation. If DTG’s optimisation of TSW keeps getting worse sooner or later it’ll seriously effect PC users as well.
while I applaud the decision to take this debate to a dedicated thread, the points raised have already started whirling in circles and it is just turning into a DTG bashfest as if they personally murdered whole branches of ppl's families
Yeah that one has been in with the team to look at and it's incredibly difficult to pin down because when you fire up a debugger to look for it - it never happens. We think it's somehow related to the physics model assigning that vehicle "velocity" (even though its stationary) so its blurring like it's moving or something. But as I say, thus far, we havent been able to actually see it under the microscope to fix it. Not forgotten though. Matt.
Going totally off topic, that brings back happy memories of what's still probably the best game ever made. All those classic one liners... "All you had to do was follow the damn train, CJ." As you realised even during the early stages of the game there were still some almost impossible missions to get by that couldn't be skipped. Or the Brady Guide which had most of the gang tag locations incorrectly depicted or described. Please feel free now to return to the regular scheduled programme!
Would you specify what you mean with "another person who is part of the wider problem"? What do you mean with "the wider problem" seemingly including me and others you didnt mention?
and you could actually drive the damn train ... which was sth that bummed me in GTA V where you could only hop on the train but not actually drive it
Don't worry I'll definitely be classed as another person that is part of the wider problem, as I'll be buying it because I don't care what a very angry person thinks and seems if they are trying to get some conspiracy theory narrative to gain traction.......
"It was your choice from the start. No one ever forced you to buy anything." "If you dislike something then dont buy it." "The paid game is only for marketing, the price itself is for the bundled routes in it and i was more than happy to pay it for the Tsw 5 routes and the upcoming Tsw 6 routes." "i never understand is the people suggesting DTG to stop producing dlcs and focus on the core and fix all its problems. If there is no DLC releases then they wont earn any money and i dont think developers live on solar power for a year or two." And from elsewhere I've seen people calling console gamers moaners and holding the pc back etc but i cant be bothered to dig out those quotes out. All your comments are NOT solutions to the issues they are simply dismissive. Your comments are self centred and happy to cut others out because everything is ok by you and your only concern is that people being critical might upset YOUR enjoyment or potentially WORRY YOU by derailing (ahem) future content of the game. This is a wider problem from people who are happy to let things slide and bash others for wanting better. I will tell you where this will all end regardless, the end of the franchise eventually as people walk away and only a few are left, THEN they will stop making dlcs. I don't want to walk away from enjoying this sim, why should I? What i do want is quality for my money, a working game that I can enjoy with the content ive already purchased. No one actively wants to come on here to complain, they do so because there's things that have not been addressed and seem to be snowballing. And for clarity I have access to all three platforms so im not just coming from this from an xbox perspective. I can easily play on PC but i bought it on xbox too for relaxing.
