Just Trains Next Route Predictions

Wasn't the 91 mostly an East Coast thing?
And they'd fit fine as is on the ECML if released as a DLC for that.
Then you could just layer them in on anything on the West Coast if you want because there's virtually no difference between the "late 1980s" lines from Just Trains and the "early 1990s."

 

Pretty sure we've had this topic before - I know my personal choice would be Preston - Manchester via both Bolton and Wigan, but I know I'm asking quite a lot there! Also, JT wouldn't get much value from their investment in the electric trains, presumably. With that in mind, more WCML seems likely?

 

The Class 86 also had operations in East Anglia, maybe they could do a route there.

That way, they introduce a not yet seen area in TSW, they can make use of their new loco, and possibly introduce another.

 

Whatever it is I hope we get new BR locos. I would like something more freight-oriented to get something like a Grid or a 58

 

Personally I would like Preston - Manchester via Bolton & Wigan (including the Atherton Line).

However, I believe (and hope) that they do Preston - Crewe and perhaps include both the branches to Liverpool (so Wigan - Liverpool / Liverpool - Runcorn - Acton Grange) to bring the mileage up. It gives them even more use for the 86 + 87 and perhaps if they throw in an 85 and some freight wagons as the route's rolling stock we'd be on to a massive winner.

 

First choice is always AC electrics for me…but JT would absolutely ace something DC - late 80s/early 90s NSE era?

 

Settle-Carlisle has some interesting stuff on Wikipedia. Not sure how much of it is accurate, but it mentions Class 43's running regularly, lots of preservation tours and excursion trains (Jubilees, early diesel, steam, Class 47s, etc), modern freight runs from the quarries, and 150 series (150, 153, 156, 158 at different times) so.... possible?
Especially if back-dated to the 1980s when things were even busier.
Looks very scenic with viaducts and stuff.
Maybe I'll pick up the TSC version map and check it out.


Continuing that line would go to Leeds, which would be a nice "map hopping" point to bigger mainlines right?

 

A "South East London Network" with the varied lines from Dartford to London Bridge/Charing Cross/Cannon Street with a load of slammers would be great.

 

Anything in the London/Network South East area please JT. Happy for another backdated one as well. Maybe it's time for slam-door EMUs? I'd trust Just Trains with a late 1980s Network South East/Jaffa Cake era project.

 

Not sure on HSTs, but the line even today is far from busy. In the 1980s, BR wanted shot of the thing so they didn't have to keep maintaining all the tunnels and viaducts. The line was only carrying a handful of trains a day. It was only after a very spirited national campaign and government intervention that the line's traffic and passenger numbers increased, along with the introduction of 156s.

If you're going to go for the TSC version, just know it's extremely old.

 

Out of curiosity, is the WCML from Preston to Crewe very interesting, because I worry it might be a similar situation to the ECML we have in game where it's more or less flat fields the whole way. I'm not sure about how it was in the 80s but currently it's just 390s running the entire section.

 

No it’s not that scenic, fairly flat across the Cheshire Plains. A fair percentage of the route is already in SoS, from Crewe to Weaver Jn. Warrington has a fairly substantial freight yard but apart from a couple of moderately interesting bridges and viaducts there’s nothing out of ordinary infrastructure wise.

 

From memory it’s a little more scenic than ECML but not much more really.

 

On Settle-Carlisle, I get the impression it's one of those routes where it's real-life appeal doesn't really translate into a train sim. There's a big difference between what makes a good area for chatter ops, riders, and spotter versus what makes a route good from a drivers perspective. What makes Settle-Carlisle great in that regard is that it's a fairly picturesque area, which is a priority for passengers and spotters. While the light traffic gives chatter companies lots of flexibility to host said events. Likewise it's basically irrelevant if it's just a A to B routes with few yards and branch lines.

For train sims though the priorities for routes tend to be ones with that's actually a good drive with plenty of traffic with a fair bit of motive power variety. Plus having various yards and branches is highly desired since it gives you tons of things to do. If a route has all of that then frankly many don't care if the route isn't all that scenic in a traditional sense. Case and point I think Tees Valley's a pretty hideous looking route, but it's one of the routes I find more interesting due to the good mix of motive power and service types. On the other hand I've always struggled to enjoy Settle-Carlisle in TSC, even if it is "scenic" because it frankly is kind of one and done.

 

You just called over half of the TSW routes garbage in other words since they don't have branchlines, yards, or much variety. =-)
Settle from the looks of it has more variety than a good many despite the "low traffic."

 

If the route is set in the mid-1980s then there are still quite a lot of freight yards along the way, be it something substantial like those in Warrington or smaller ones around Wigan and the Leyland lorry factory. Of course there are the yards around Crewe too which would offer quite a lot of shunting possibilities as well as lots of trip workings to Warrington Arpley. If they added the Liverpool branches to it then you'd also gain Ditton, Halewood and Tuebrook/Edge Hill. There is also the possibility of including the Brickershaw branch at Wigan which used two pairs of Class 20s operating Top & Tail to take coal from the colliery up that way down to FFPS near Warrington.

While the Cheshire Plains are relatively flat the route begins to climb near Warrington then climb pretty much continuously until Boars Head (between Wigan and Preston) when it starts to drop towards Preston.

There is a lot more potential on this route than the current ECML offerings.

 

Reading between the lines / Tinfoil hat on; but Gameplay Packs / Loco DLC tend to end up filling in gaps in the release schedule to boost the developer and/or keep timetable/scenario designers busy.

Perhaps JT have gone ahead and pushed the boat out for Glasgow - Carlisle, contrary to previous statements?

Wishful thinking, most likely. A man can hope.

 

Wishful thinking I reckon, they stated that their reasons for not doing WCML North were down to how complex the track and signalling are at its north end, nothing to do with rolling stock. Carlisle is likely as far North as we'll ever go on the WCML, unless you count the end of it on Cathcart.

 

Re Settle & Carlisle, ironically this is a route which would be best set back in the era no developer wants to touch, the late 50’s and early 60’s with the transition from steam to diesel. Traffic levels still fairly heavy and in particular freight. This is the era the group who did the payware version for Trainz chose and, within the limits of that game, it came over quite well. And the main appeal of the S&C in TSC is running steam locos over there rather than modern(ish) diesels.

 

My meaning was that the TfW Pacer & Class 86 would buy them time to deal with that complexity in strathclyde and make sure that the route wouldn't ruin their finances. Although the rolling stock situation is also helped by the addition of the 86 which leaves the Class 303 as the only notable ommision north of the border.

 

This crossed my mind as well, although Ipswich to Liv St would be a massive amount of work. Norwich to Ipswich do-able but a tad dull I hate to say, until you reach the southern end of it.
Maybe they caved in and have started Carlisle - Glasgow?

 

These are my thoughts from last October.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/glasgow-central-to-carlisle-jt-style.86413/

Thankfully, the 86 and Mk2s are on the way!

 

I would love to see the Metropolitan Line in the game and my second choice would be The Chiltern Main Line and thirdly Hope Valley Manchester to Sheffield via Stockport and lastly the Severn Valley Line.

 

Days of the Thames-Clyde express, regular diversions, double headed Steams on heavy freights up the Long Drag. Hell yeah I'd be happy with that.

 

I assume they'll stick with the 80s theme, so based on the fact that the WCML south of Preston isn't the most interesting, I think something Network Southeast would interest me the most. After some quick research, I realised that the 80s would be too early for the 465, I think a route with the class 442 (entered service in 1988) would be quite nice, like Southampton Central to Weymouth. As well as the 442, the class 47 could be used for Crosscountry services, this time in Intercity Swallow livery. There would be lots of potential for loco addons, like the class 73 or an Intercity Swallow HST.

 

After the Riviera line a NSE route would be my next choice. But I want to be greedy and have both for TSW6 really!

 

Give the punters what they want, that’s what I say.
The whole “it’s too complex” statement I’m not buying it either, JT are more than capable.
The issue is can they build the Carlisle to Glasgow in the allotted time frame that DTG has given them.
Let them work DTG. You can’t rush perfection.

 

It's not necessarily about limited finances, it's more simply about how many lines and the overall complexity there are up there. We've already seen the effects of such a route with Frankfurt S-Bahn, a monster on memory consumption which still crashes on PS5 even with the reduced timetable. Now imagine sticking that on the end of a 100 mile long route...

 

Just for context adding onto that, in TSC here is the familiar Cathcart area of Glasgow:

Zoomed out to the full north/Glasgow region:


And the entire route from Glasgow down to Carlisle:


Personally, unless we get really good performance boosts or it happens in the 10th console generation, I highly doubt we will ever see this for TSW.

 

I'm fine with them putting Glasgow off until the console technology catches up. There is so much other stuff they could be working on. Obviously they know what they're doing from previous projects, so I'm going to defer to their judgement on this one.

 

The Trainz version also did something the TSC one didn't - it extended beyond Settle and onwards through Hellifield to Skipton, giving two different actually decent end points for freight and Skipton as a good end point for long distance passenger traffic. If only TSW today would ever be so generous with some of these routes...

 

Why not via Woodhead? After all, the Woodhead DC Line would offer a new BR electrics scene, not too far from JT's comfort zone. Set in the 60s, with EM1 (76), EM2 (77) and 506 stock! Not to mention the initial section to be reused/remake (Glossop Line)!
I've already suggested it here, on the forum: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...field-via-penistone-wath-1969-br-route.88701/

 

I have this old pic on a thumb drive, it's from the MSTS version. I basically just butchered an old route map lol


The MSTS version began just south of the Carlisle station and followed the main line, although Gretna station was also added as there was just enough room to add that spur on the tiles. North of Carstairs is as you see in the map.
A few complete lines and then bits and pieces added ad-hoc.
The stations in the boxes were what I had added for V5 of the route, before I downed tools for good.

Had I continued the plan would have been to add the rest of the Neilston line, scenerise it all and release, but real life got in the way.

Plus, I got so frustrated as I wanted to add more of the North Clyde lines, but any track placement west of Partick would crash/corrupt the route.

It still sits unfinished on an external hard drive, although once in a while I'll boot it up and play in Open Rails.

 

Frankfurt S-Bahn's main problem is how many trains are there - length and timetable complexity doesn't play into it all that much.

WCMLN is easily talking 87+coaches, 86, 101, and the 303 at minimum. Two multiple units + 2 locomotives + various wagons/coaches. Potential for a 314 and 47 ontop of that, but as with WCMLOS I could see them being limited to scenarios only or perhaps held for a "full" timetable as a bonus (the 314 perhaps amended in it's Cathcart version to have the old liveries, similar to the Niddertalbahn DMU, so it stays a layer)

Frankfurt S-Bahn, with it's reduced timetable, has the ICE-T, 430, 423, 146* + Dostos all to load in. The ICE-T, because of how many different coaches it has, is a big drain on the Memory side of things.

Also, Frankfurt HBF is substantially busier than Glasgow Central is at any time, past or present. It's got loads of trains and - importantly - lots of Static Stock all to load in at once. Central only has 13 tracks (in the time this would be set) with no sidings ontop of that.

Track Complexity / Timetable isn't the killer. A busy timetable will naturally have performance issues but not likely at the stage where the game doesn't run.
Service frequency in 80s/90s Glasgow will not rival modern Frankfurt, either.

The main issue, I feel fairly confident in saying, would be getting the route done in a good time, which is why my theory is that JT have decided to go for it and use the Pacer/86 to keep them going along until it's time.

Dovetail definitely don't give JT timescales to work by. JT are independent, they're not contractors, they can take as long as they need.

They only time restriction they have is how long it takes for money to run out from WCMLOS/86/TfW142/other stuff.

 

But again, you're assuming they're lying with no proof or reason why they'd do that.
Just because you want it to happen?
Again, I'm just going to take their word for it and believe they are telling the truth.

 

Just a pedantic point, but technically there would have been 14 platforms, as 11a was in occasional use. Mostly mail, but as that declined you'd get the odd passenger service in there if need be. I loved it as it was rare, but most passengers would have hated the long walk past the car park to the concourse! Me, I'd be exactly where I wanted to be. I so miss the old platform 11a, best viewing spot at Central.

And it's also reminded me that the Salkeld St parcels depot would have been open back then. Plenty of scope for some mail train movements in and out of Central ... should the route ever happen.

 

Personally I'm not interested in another part of the WCML, Preston-Carlisle is superb but so was Blackpool Branches and I want to see what they do next, not repeat something they've already done, maybe in a couple of years but not as their next route.

What I would really love is for them to do something heavily focussed on freight, ideally in the sectorisation era with the two tone grey and those symbols on the sides denoting coal, metals etc.

I don't really care where in the country they set the route, Just Trains already built routes through my childhood town and my current town in TSC, but as cool as it would be to see those represented in TSW, neither are what you would call busy, so I would rather they built something somewhere with a lot to do.

 

Hopefully a 90s NSE route with class 50, 73, 4CEP 411 & 4VEP 423

 

For me, Carlisle - Glasgow is like Preston - Carlisle but a bit less interesting. The Carstairs - Glasgow section contains some interest, but Carlisle - Carstairs is most of the journey, and it’s a pretty uneventful run. Little population, only 1 intermediate station (which most trains don’t stop at), miles and miles of rather featureless scenery.

I’d be very happy with another WCML 1980s route, as I love the tap changer electrics, but I’d like a route with some different characteristics to drive them over. The afore-mentioned Preston - Birmingham or Wolverhampton - Coventry (Rugby?) would be great. Euston - Rugby in the same era would be fantastic, but I can’t see them taking that on.

 

Hmm, unofficially possibly. You and I don’t really know what truly goes on behind the scenes.
What meetings are held, what is discussed, time Quoters etc. I highly doubt they give them unlimited amount of time, as if they did I’m pretty sure JT’s projects would be a lot bigger.

Not calling you a liar, but unless you have some evidence to back up that claim then to me it’s only speculation.
Which brings me back to my point of JT saying Carlisle to Glasgow is too complex, we can’t do it.
It’s just going to take them longer. 12 month or just over a year as opposed to the WCMLOS which took them around 9 months.

 

Ignoring the fact that the team need paying and that money isnt infinite, who really wants to wait another 12 months for the next JT route? I certainly don't.

 

It will be out before too long l would imagine. Certainly before the end of this year.

 

No, you (and a couple others) are making the claim that JT is controlled by DTG dictates and is secretly doing a route they said they aren't. The people making the unsupported claim have to provide the evidence, not the side that is simply believing JT's statement. It's not up to me or anyone else to "prove" JT is telling the truth that they aren't doing Glasgow bit and aren't being told what to do by DTG.

If you think those are lies then you need to do the proving since those are big claims.

 

I'm not saying they're lying - I'm saying I think (hope, perhaps) that they've changed their minds. That's very big (and clear) difference.
Also: the WCMLOS stream was over six months ago. Things can change.

Well let's think about this: Just Trains are the only third party who publish their own articles (Skyhook publish small updates, not full dev blogs). Just Trains spent over a year on Blackpool it was year until WCMLOS released after that; much more time than over devs spend on their routes and certainly much more than Dovetail (considering Dovetail's multi-team setup, which Just Trains don't have).
Already it's been six months since WCMLOS came out.
Dovetail may be publisher but they don't give a developer a timeframe of X months to make a route. It's ridiculous. Smaller teams can be easily impacted by a dev's illness or departure, and given they have full autonomy over their routes (reading between the lines - Dovetail said "BR doesn't sell" and yet "allowed" JT to go for it anyway), short of licensing, then I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to say "we're taking our time but we're going to go for the big one."

Is any of this concrete proof? No. But it's based on the snippets of BTS we've gotten from Dovetail over the years, a good bit of reading between the lines and detective work, and a dosage of logic.

Does this prove that JT have gone for WCMLN or any similarly busy route? No, of course not- as I've said, just a theory - one filled with hope, but not unreasonable.

 

I don’t need to prove anything as I’m not the one claiming anything lol. I said it’s just speculation, meaning it could or could not be true.

Again, you or I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. Unless JT have publicly said DTG have no input in JT’s decision making then I’ll put my hands up and said you was right. Please provide evidence (screenshot preferably).

I never said JT are doing the Carlisle to Glasgow route, I just said maybe, as it would make the most logical sense.

 

Which is the classic conspiracy-theorist tactic.

Put out a wild conspiracy theory and say “I’m not saying it’s true, I’m just speculating.”

When someone points out that logically the theory’s highly unlikely and explains why, respond with “prove it’s not true”.

Everyone is perfectly entitled to consider the evidence and apply logic in reaching their conclusion. They are not obliged to spend time hunting around for evidence to disprove conspiracy theories, and the fact that a conspiracy theory hasn’t been definitively disproven does not constitute evidence that it’s true.

 

Double Yellow:
"Not calling you a liar, but unless you have some evidence to back up that claim then to me it’s only speculation."
--
No, the accepted truth of a statement is not just "speculation."
YOURS is speculation. Taking what JT literally said for what they said isn't speculating... it's what they said.
We can "speculate" on what other route it would be, but unless you ARE calling someone a liar it's not going to be Glasgow.

You then add in a weird "prove a negative" fallacy. (ie "prove you're not a murderer or by default we assume you are.")

It would not be "logical" to assume they are making untrue statements and secretly working on what they said they weren't.
That's the opposite of logical.

I honestly don't care which route they make as it'll be decent value regardless.
It's your flippant disregard for others to pursue a crackpot theory that is oddly fascinating.


"You see by SAYING they aren't going to make it... that's PROOF they're GOING to because... LOGIC!"
---
Just pick another option like everyone else and you'll be less likely to be disappointed.
Choosing the 100% no option means you have a 100% chance of being disappointed.

 

Show me what they said.
I told you provide me with some evidence to your claim. If they said what you say they did, surely it would be in form of a an article from Just Trains or from a comment from an employee.

Your comment is just speculation too. Whether you think it’s 95% most likely the outcome of your truth and 5% is a lie, there’s still that 5% chance that the lie is the truth.


So unless you can prove me wrong by showing me some evidence, your words are meaningless.


If a just trains representative would like to comment also I’d also expect that as the truth, as no one on this forum will convince me otherwise

PS: Just incase you get confused I’m talking about Just Trains having full control over their decisions, no DTG input. Not what route they’re making next.

 

They're an independent company.
Why would they need "proof" of that?
Again, the burden of proof is on you.
You're the one so passionate about this for some reason.

 

Could Euston to Birmigham New Street be the next logical move?
How interesting is that bit?
They're logical end bits and you could route hop to Birmingham Cross City route.
If someone is doing Crewe (don't recall what company it was) then it would make sense for them to do Crewe to Birmingham, completing a good chunk of the WCML.
Granted not all the same era, but that's not gonna happen anyway.
A few things like the Class 86 would still be able to run down the whole length, even if they are 40 years different.