What's concerning about that? TSC is still running so why can't TSW become TSWC and we move on to Train Sim Universe for PS6 and PC. (Xbox will be dead by then so only PC can hold the game back then /sarcasm)
I thought I made it pretty clear with this. And all due respect, if that fails, then what's the point of putting all that time and money only to either have to come back to TSW? Or worse, what if the entire thing causes DTG to be shut down entirely?
I have hit the reset button on TSW. I deleted it from my library so I don't even feel tempted to try out another add-on and waste more money on this game. TSW as it is now is just pure frustration with all these little things that add up that make this game feel very outdated. My biggest gripe is performance, and it's something that will never be solved with UE4, so why would I still invest in something that will never run smoothly?
This is the problem with DTG in a nutshell: Their main selling point is waving shiny things in front of customers faces. "UE5 is out, and customers want that. Let's make a new game in UE5" "Kids love Need for Speed, this new Ray Tracing and pretty flashing lights. Let's make an arcade game even though we specialize in simulators and don't understand the target demographic." "UE6 is out. Let's make a UE6 game for 10th Generation consoles and PC. Nobody cares about Train Sim World anyway, they'll rebuy everything in the end." .... Then the project fails to sell, and they go back to selling TSC DLC to recover the financial losses.
We need to devise a bingo board for this game and what it will offer/be promised etc.etc. So here’s a few… Just one save slot. Flat sound in the Subway tunnel sections (no reverb). “it’s been passed to Engineering”. A dedicated CM who, like the lady who was devolved to look after Catan, ends up in the DTG dungeon never heard from again. At least three hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil shills on the forum supporting no matter how bad. It will run like a dog on even high end PC’s. No contrast/brightness/gamma options. Feel free to add!
It’s the nonsensical business practice that continually baffles me not just n gaming companies but software companies in general. TSW has its struggles, some of it is pretty serious, but you know let’s concentrate resources elsewhere on an idea to drag race trains. I mean who thinks that’s a good idea? Other examples…ea and codemasters, make wrc, it’s released in a rough state but they patch it and work hard to fix and add content and work it into a tremendous and solid position and then they dump the game and the dev team. Microsoft and flight sim for 2024, streaming assets, missing features when 2020 was stable. Again just baffling and illogical decisions. It’s like the world has lost its marbles.
The concept of this new bonfire of a game sounds like one that was suggested by a raffle winner who’s had too much to drink.
Entirely down to the whims of the shareholders. EA shutter studios they buy, MS layoff thousands of people even from such venerable studios as Rare and then cancel umpteen games, followed by hiking sub prices. Everything in the megacorps is down to money and making as much of it as possible On the bright side, at least as far as I know, Focus haven't mothballed any of their acquired studios (yet)
That sounds like such a horrifically bad idea that I can unironically see DTG attempting it, it'll fail spectacularly of course.
It's just a test bed for programming in UE5, probably for a future TSW successor, They pretty much said so on the video. It's gonna happen one day. It'd be nice to see some gloss. Baseball hats should be swivelled.
Yep, seemed pretty obvious to me from the video. First work out what can and can't be done in UE5 with its shiny bells and whistles, then work out what they can bring from that to a TSW-like title. It might be that TSW continues to be developed for the routes it can handle plus all the layering, while a new title does the things TSW can't so easily, such as subways - complete London Underground network, anyone?
"WCML South is staying in 2019 for TSW, and we are only releasing a class 730 on the new UE5 game." Great way to fracture the player base more than it already is.... How about third-party developers like TSG, Just Trains and Alan Thompson Sim? If they have to make DLC for TSC, TSW and a new UE5 game, the quality of their releases will suffer due to lack of time and manpower being spread thin.
That's why you move it there and anyone bringing it up gets moved there out of "general discussion"... which is meant for TSW content. They won't make their own forum for it because it's not even complete let alone released. So it's "off topic"
I mean isn't that just how game development works? New tools are released all the time and developers either learn how to use them or get their lunch eaten by a new player in the game. UE5 isn't some magic bullet, but i think it's also silly how dismissive some people are about what it could bring to the table. Sure, it could fracture the playerbase if it's done really stupidly (so at least a 75% chance of that happening lol) but it doesn't HAVE to be that way. IF they have a plan to make the transition go smoothly, and take their time and don't rush things. For me, personally, my biggest fear is losing access to rolling stock layers- i honestly don't play older (pre-TSW3) routes at all anymore because i just can't with the old lighting and i want the features that have come with the newer versions. Sometimes a route is pretty self-contained and layers aren't as important, but, something like TSW6's Dresden-Leipzig or the upcoming Birm-Crewe becomes much less interesting without all my existing layers, so that's the real challenge IMO. I think they have three basic options: 1. Clean break like TSC to TSW, or what was planned for TSW2. This would probably enable the biggest leap forward in simulation quality, but I feel this is unlikely considering the TSW2 backlash and subsequent reversal. 2. Convert EVERYTHING to UE5. This would be extremely expensive and time consuming per the devs. I don't see this happening either. 3. Some kind of hybrid system where they convert select content (newest/most played/most layered) to UE5, make some content available as non-Simugraph AI-only trains, and some (least played/least layered/most broken) simply get left behind. I think this is most likely, and kind of inevitable at some point tbh. So, i guess i'm trying to come terms with this fact and advocate for what i want to see in the future.
Right!? Denshattack definitely got my attention with that trailer and i agree that graphic style is timeless! I have to disagree a little bit regarding your ETS2 comparison as much as i ablsolutely love those games (ATS is more my jam). The outdated engine is absolutely holding them back at this point- they're completely blocked from upgrading things like AI traffic (which is just awful) because the engine is so old it doesn't even support multiple CPU cores! All the complaints we have in TSW about stuttering and framerate are there and add in nonexisting or broken antialiasing among many other things. I'm really hoping they've been working on it quietly because the upcoming console release could end up being a dud with a more demanding audience wrt graphics and performance. A new PS5 player driving the I-10 in LA or Houston and seeing the current ghost town and what few AI cars there are on the road can't merge correctly half the time is gonna be justifiably disappointed. I think it's a real shame as the games themselves are some of my all-time favorites. I wouldn't want to see TSW in the same state in 5 years.
I have noted TSW's age many times, I'm way more aware of this than most, it being "old" doesn't change my thoughts. PS3 was also dead in the water at the time of TSW's release, meanwhile fast forward to now the PS4's still considered semi-relevant despite being just as old. Also back when Euro Truck came out, the idea of supporting a game for 10 years was ludicrous unless it was something like WoW. Now it's something considered common place, to the point that the thought of a "forever game" is something companies spend millions to try and actively pull off. Gaming's very different right now, and in the world where half decade old machines are higher than launch pricing I don't see the need to this massive tech shake up. IMO I've not been impressed by much of the UE5, not when lot of that stuff's struggling to maintain 60FPS and hitting resolutions lower than the "worse" game engines did on PS4 at points. And any increases in detail just ain't worth those trade offs, I value fidelity and clarity way more at this point. And governments could do amazing things if they could only care about the future of the country and toss aside any egos or power-grabs. Similarly, hypothetically if a company like Sony got a hold of TSW and were willing to give it a $500 million budget and five years of development I'd imagine it would be quite easy to make that ultimate sequel. But I don't feel it's healthy to base your thoughts on the idealized version of events when I think the odds of it happening are a long shot. Especially since inevitably said improvements are going to take extra time and money invest, both of which DTG has shown no sign of wanting to do. And frankly TSW itself would probably be very fixable if that game could get similar extra effort put into it. Disagree, it's possible to update any old game engine to have those features with time and money. Rockstar's engine started with I think a bloody poker game of all things, only to power everything they did after, which are some of the most technically impressive games on the market. I can also think of Retro Studio's own game engine, which they have continuously improved on since Metroid Prime. Ironically the most recent release being a aforementioned remaster which uses the update version of the same engine made for that game. And crazily enough it's probably the best looking game on the Switch currently, looks like something a PS4 should be running at points with how good lighting, model detail, and performance is. Where exactly are we getting this assumption from exactly? Console players are just as varied as on PC, lot of retro styled titles do just as well on there. Especially once you consider most of the graphics elitists have PC's, lot of console players just want a "good enough" games machine. in the same way tons of PC players only have a "Good enough" machine as well. And this is where are thought process differ, a new game not having this issues means nothing to me. When I want TSW fixed, I want TSW fixed, not a game under a different name that's similar. No different from how TSC players don't care what state TSW's game engine is in, that doesn't help improve TSC's own faults. And as far as the idea of "transitioning content" goes, well, I frankly don't trust DTG can do that without massively breaking that content in the process. They screwed up so much with TSW2 & 3 with just transitioning from UE4... to UE4, routes like Peninisula Corridor still have issues originating from that! One more thing, we clearly disagree a lot on this, but just to end a positive note after all that, I can agree with you completely that Denshattack's looks awesome! Definitely will be adding that to my wishlist right after finishing this!
Hahaha absolutely! Not everything has to be an internet fight to the death lol! Just to be clear i'm not dying for a new train sim- i just think i see the writing on the wall here so i'm trying to advocate to hopefully make it as good as it can be on it arrives. I will continue to enjoy TSW and buy stuff for it in the meantime. Real quick on the ETS on consoles thing- again, i love those games and have more hours in them combined than TSW. I'm absolutely double-dipping on Xbox once it comea out, but i think we existing fans can have some rose-tinted glasses sometimes- on a 4k screen the current ETS graphics (graphics, not art design fwiw i think SCS do a great job there) are just not gonna look great compared to current-gen games- it doesn't look retro/pixel, it just looks outdated imo- not to mention there could be at least some initial competition from Road Kings, which looks visually sharp even though it seems limited in scope and leaning into silly stuff like tornado chasing. Btw for a fun pixel game- check out Ball x Pit that just came out on Gamepass this week- very fun stuff!
I promise this will be my last post on the topic, I'm gonna STFU now. This game is aimed at younger players, right? Have you noticed how nobody in the DTG Developer Spotlight video was under 30 years-old? (I want to say 40 years-old, but am being polite). I think this was more of a shareholder idea, thought-up by old men in a boardroom who have never played a video game in their lives, and not something that the target demographic requested or was asked to give feedback on during its creation. So if this thing does fall apart, that is going to be a key factor.
I wouldn’t even say that. I just think it will fall flat because it’s just not exciting. Racing trains in tunnels? And realistic tunnels and locations? If you were aiming for that market you’d have some kind of fantasy track where the trains criss cross and loop and have interesting environments like trackmania turbo where there’s some jeopardy. In this idea they took a real world scenario and tried to create street racing rules around it which is odd because trains are not designed for those kind of thrills. I don’t think anyone will play this other than a few dtg fans, who might give it a whirl.
I still have one question after all this time. What audience is this game made for? TSW itself doesn’t have that big of a target audience so to make it this more goofy really makes me question who they’re making this for..
Don’t you know there’s millions out there who love trains and have a particular fetish for fast and the furious.
It's simple. The target audience is "the kids". What do kids like? The skate aesthetics, so everything is stylized into street art. The title, trailer, and even the presentation. "Rad", "slay," and so on. And what product does DTG make? Train games. Take those two, make a Venn diagram and the total area of the circles is the market DTG is aiming to capture, and the intersection is likely what they are going to get. As for me, I abhor this kind of aesthetics, so I'll wish Dovetail good luck in their endeavours, and leave Metro Rivals to "the sk8 kids".
Makes sense. But, what “skate kids” or just kids in general are going to have an interest in this kind of game to begin with? The Thomas DLC that was obviously marketed for kids did not go over well with the community, meaning it probably didn’t sell well. So, i don’t know what makes them think a subway style whatever type of game this is, is going to work better than the Thomas DLC.
One assumes they did some market research and spoke with the various focus groups. However if this is the net result of a solution to requests for NYC Subway popping up in the Suggestions forum two or three times a week, god help us what we get for the South Western Main Line out of Waterloo, Kings Cross to Peterborough or any other popular but "too difficult" or plain old ignored for TSW request.
Something tells me that this new arcade game signals the death knell of any future NYC subway route. I just can't imagine either DTG or MTA making a serious attempt at a subway route following this nonsense.
I'm not sure the game needs to make big money to be considered a success, the spotlight video made it clear it's a test bed to learn UE5 and by actually releasing a game at the end of it they'll be able to recoup the cost. Having said that, pack it with microtransactions and kids with access to their parents credit cards will soon make it profitable. My biggest worry is all the talk about procedural generation, can you imagine if the highly varied scenery on the Netherlands route was instead procedurally generated with just a touch up pass from the devs.
Seems like Dovetail is basically saying “we give up” with the idea of NYC Subways. No railroad operator will want to work them if they look up Dovetails work just to find this.
Agreed, success is they gain experience and confidence in UE5 tools. I'm not sure this particular game will be the sort I buy, but I'll keep an open mind. I'm more interested in the potential for the next TSW type of game being able to reproduce, say, Underground routes like the District line, Metropolitan line, Central line - the lines with open sections at either end.
Think it's all succession planning for the next generation of computers and games machines. They get to learn the tools for UE5 at this stage which puts them in a good place for 2 to 3 years time. I'd expect UE5 will not be any better the UE4 on the latest gen machines, so throwing more realism and lighting effects is only going to make the experience worse. The next generation will be much more powerful and allow all developers to push the current gen boundaries way past where they currently are. With what's happened over the last few years, even with the silly bugs, I feel the vision of what DTG are trying to do, is now beyond current 9th gen capabilites. Problem will be marying 10th gen machines and player base numbers. Most of the machines are gonna cost we'll over £650 at launch. That's a fair chunk of change for most. I'd expect it will take a while for the sim group numbers to get to a place where it will make such things viable for a developer.
Except for all the ones that already do, including MTA? It's a UE5 training ground that they don't have to put a ton of money or effort into- no licensing, no research trips, etc. It's a train game and incorporates Simugraph so they can prototype updates to that as well without impacting existing TSW builds. Probably will be made by mostly junior devs with UE5 skills but not much experience with sim titles, and a few seniors with sim experience who need to learn UE5. Seems like it could be a win-win for us honestly.
Agree and most speculation has Gen10 launching in 2027, which could be exactly when a new train sim might be ready to release. Sony is ending PS4 support next year so a jump to Gen9 minimum/Gen10 recommended for the next title makes a ton of sense to me. I don't think they'd cut off Gen9 any time soon it would cost too much market share i think.
And so the infernal cycle begins again, ending in a (relatively) few years. But what's the solution to all this? Simple. A €200-300 tablet or smartphone. How will that be possible? The solution is called the CLOUD. GeForce Now, Microsoft, and others are already ahead of the curve... Video Games para todos!
Frankly the first batch of UE5 titles we got through 2023/24 were beyond current 9th gen capabilities. Have you seen how aggressive the upscaling on Immortals of Aveum is on an XBox in order to hit 60fps? The engine's had a lot of performance improvements since, and CDPR especially look to have cracked a couple of the technical issues with the tech shown off for foliage rendering in their Witcher demo, but it's taken a while to get it into a solid shape that the consoles can get the most out of, and it's still more demanding than they're really built for, since you can't just brute force it with more VRAM on a console, without upgrading to some kind of "Pro" model.
Thanks, but no thanks. Microsoft's XCloud ambitions already ran head first into the brick wall of reality and had their wings clipped first with the financial prospects that caused them to scale back from their cloud streaming using Series X hardware in its pilot phase to running the inferior Series S versions of games in the final product, and latency continues to be a killer when it comes to achieving decent responsiveness. I'm sure all the gamers whose consoles kept chugging along in offline mode during Vodafone's major screwup with the Big Goof Protocol earlier this week (Several of my friends included) will happily testify as to the benefits of a local device over a remote one.
Read carefully! I didn't write that this will happen tomorrow. Sooner or later this business of "bottlenecks" due to technically backward consoles will have to end.
Ultimately, I find this announcement quite "disturbing". Not because of the game itself, but because of the clear reference to the construction of a new simulator, which I believe is already underway. Moreover, this is a video recorded shortly before the release of TSW 6. So, at least a couple of years with the current TSW, and then we'll have to start all over again. The conclusions that can be drawn are that the difference certainly won't be epochal, as it was with the switch from the TSC graphics engine to the much more modern UE one. The second consideration is that multiplayer will definitely be present (something I really can't understand in a train game, but there you go), which, apparently, is requested by many users. The third consideration (and this is the most important in my opinion) is that most likely no add-ons from the current TSW will be transferable to the new "simulator." This creates the "layers" problem. Shall we start again with Rapid Transit? What do you think?
I'll say again what I have recently: technically there is no need for a UE5 version of TSW to mean starting all over and losing DLC. UE5 is still only a new version of the same engine. Yes, there are some bigger differences, and yes all the DLC will need to be redone in the same way as the core, but they supposedly redo every DLC with every iteration of TSW anyway to some extent. The main difference is it would be more work than usual, which they can alleviate by outsourcing the work. Naturally, this doesn't mean DTG won't declare it an entirely new simulator and won't want to charge everyone for every bit of DLC all over again, but they don't actually need to do that.
All very legitimate concerns. I don't really play multiplayer for the most part so i hope it's purely optional. Losing layers is my biggest fear as well- i'm trying not to worry too much because DTG has to know how huge the backlash would be if everyone's (sometimes quite expensive) content all suddenly became useless. Like you said, the jump from TSW to TSW-NextGen won't be nearly as huge from a technical perspective as the leap from TSC was, so i don't think it's matter of "it can't be done", more like, "how much will it cost". I'm skeptical that all content will be there day-1, but i'm hopeful the most popular and essential for layering stuff will be in at launch, and that something like the old "Preservation Crew" will keep tinkering away until almost everything makes it across- keep in mind licensing could be an issue too, especially if it's a brand new title and not simply TSW8.
I'm not worried about having to pay for all the DLC to be ported to the new simulator with UE5, we'll see what version it will be, given that UE6 will presumably be released in 2027 and doesn't feature any noteworthy innovations anyway. Let me be clear: this is just my personal opinion. I know how hard it is to earn money every single day. But starting from scratch would be frustrating. It's absolutely necessary to consider that this move would require a lot of work on DTG's part. And going back to the previous reasoning, the work needs to be compensated somehow.
A move to UE5 to start from scratch should only happen with good reason. Routes should get longer, performance should be better and the driving experience should be better. If moving to UE5 results in fancier graphics and shorter routes because "long routes are too complex" then I'm not interested.
As far as converting UE4 to UE4, Epic may have made it (relatively) easy when talking about the vanilla versions, but DTG has said that their own build of UE4 is very heavily modified, including some backports from UE5. I imagine that upgrade would still require considerable modifications to their UE5 build, and then the headaches of moving from one custom build to another.
If it is their intention to move TSW over to UE5 then they need to start forming some teams now - one to work on the core and the other to rework all the routes to UE5 standards and compatibility, though there's a few they needn't bother with like Rapid Transit. And I wonder where that process will fall with regard to 3P routes and train packs especially where the developers are no longer active.
But all projects, even third-party ones, ultimately fall under the control of DTG. This is the policy implemented in the TSW. For example, in the TSC, it would be impossible to update everything to a new, more complex standard due to the myriad of independent external developers.
