PlayStation What If Tsw Disappears?

To use my previous analogy, I want them to fill the glass of water up carefully, just as close to the top as they can get it without spilling over.

They should know what the limit is and act accordingly, as devs in other games do.

The game you might want to make in a perfect world, can't always be the game you do make in reality, right?

And stop saying, 'but the console owners made us do it' and take a bit of agency. If you can see that the system can't handle it when doing the dev work, then you need to chop and change accordingly.

I think you will find that us console riff raff will be a lot more understanding than you might think if you explain the decision properly.

Maybe even do some console specific research and find out what is REALLY important to us and what we can actually do without quite happily?

 

Longer routes more sidings, more detailed routes, train announcements, conductor mode, better physics, "more places to go on foot", more passenger AI, more and more layers, more foliage animation, more waves animation, more vignette animations...

Every new demand made for "more stuff."

It's not unique to console players... but since console players are the majority of players then that means the majority of the demands are from console players. While asking for new stuff isn't unique.... it's not the PC users as a rule who are struggling so it's doubly important that they don't ask for things that will further slow the game down by making the game bigger and more processor intensive.

Again, as I said it's like someone who has the same job but increasingly spends more, then doesn't realize why they are in debt.
It's the same idea, just "tech debt" in performance.
The equivalent to "make more money" is "upgrade your system"... but console players can't do that if there's nothing better being sold.
Not without moving to PC.
Therein lies the conundrum.
They're not to blame for Xbox or Playstation not releasing new consoles...BUT they are to blame if they want "more" while still using the same old system.

There's nothing wrong with working a low paying job.
It's still work.
But you can't spend like you have a high paying job.
Similarly, you don't get a "high end" game to run on your console.

You get a console-optimized middle game that is limited to run on your console better.

If anyone sees this as some sort of criticism of just console players, it's not... it's just a statement of reality.
Whether that reality offends you is dependent on you because it reasonably shouldn't.
I don't expect my 2020 computer to run as well as a new 2025 computer.
It simply won't play the latest games as well as a top shelf new computer.
And why should it?
So I know some games will be stretching it until I spend money to upgrade it.

On a side note, if you want to know why devs "don't understand the issues".... do you think they're using high end gaming computers at the gaming design studio? Or old computers from 8 years ago and Gen 8 consoles?


They are NOT getting the same experience as you because they have the latest top end stuff for work.
Of course it's going to run better on their systems.
It's not intentionally being heartless or mean, it's just a different perspective.

I'd suggest for perspective they keep a few older systems around to "test" on so they get a more "average" player performance experience, but I'm not running a software company, I just led project teams for years. What do I know? =-)

This is where the "public play test" comes in, but I'm not sure they make an effort to fill it with at least a few lower-end users on older systems. It's easy to get an unrepresentative sample of players and make incorrect assumptions about the community as a whole.

Again, not a direct criticism of DTG specifically, just an observation from personal experience of what I've seen over the years in other areas. In other game testing, it's often a certain subset that comes in greater numbers to "playtest" (younger people, new systems, lots of free time... ie "gamer kids") who don't reflect necessarily the same systems or playstyles as the "average" gamer which for most sims is older, with an older system, with limited time to play. (Often just a couple hours after work)

They're just tougher to get into playtesting because they have competing demands on their time like work and family.

 

100% this!!!
I have only 2 demands as a console player...
- they fix the mountain of core bugs that have been reported for litterly years!! (I think that applies from both player bases)

- they communicate better! .. is TSW becoming a PC first title to meet the "higher demands" (to render the toilet flushes people so crave!!).. thats fine.. communicate this to the console players so we know what to expect coming forwards.. and if point 1 has been executed maybe a byproduct of that would be a smoother experience on consoles!

If the JT routes are a benchmark of what can be done on console.. thats more then fine with me!!! If some more distant details have to be reduced.. also fine with me!!

But beens S-Bahn is always the rebuttal some PC players give... no I dont think it is acceptable to just carve out ⅓ of the timetable.. make 0 other changes and charge the same price for less of a product..

If they reduced the other things first like reducing detal trackside, removing out of veiw detals.. and said ok we've done this, this, and that, it runs acceptablely on full timetable for console now... but we also offer a reduced timetable with full detail (like SEHS) that will run flawlessly.. i think thats a fair comprise!

But like you say.. facts and narrative are to different things!

 

Some truly crazy takes on this thread and this one is right up there in point missing.

 

Absolutely, something you realize if you actually look at the outside world besides train sim is that PS5 not only handles most games, there's actually a common attitude that the gen isn't really started yet. Legit, as much as people are demanding for it here lot of people think 10th gen machines are actually coming out a bit sooner than they should. And frankly it's hard to blame them, if we're this far into the gen and most games often can still run at 60FPS, albeit obviously at reduced settings, why would someone who isn't obsessed with graphics care?

Like to compare to other media, in the movie world nobody argues that Blu-ray isn't the best way to watch most movies. Yet a lot of people will happily pay less for "good enough" on streaming, or heck, even sticking with DVD over spending all the money needed for a good HD/4K player. And that's considered fine, nobody in the right mind argues it's a travesty movie studios let people watch their shows in those formats, lot of movie buffs sub to streaming services and buy older formats too after all.

Heck, go over to music and people will pay good money to listen on vinyl. which is a objectively worse reproduction of sound compared to CD or streaming. All because people just think that sound is particularly appealing, and that they get bigger, better artwork for display.

Console generations happened for various reasons, but frankly newer consoles and computers really ain't the big leaps they used to be. And increasingly you're probably gonna see more and more resistance to the idea of upgrading hardware every X amount of time. The only reason there's so much push for it here is just because TSW just happens to be one of the only games that really pushes the hardware. Which frankly is kind of sad in a way considering this was supposed to be optimized for PS4 & Xbox One starting out. Yet it needs hardware a whole generation ahead just to play even old routes at steady frame rates.

I was actually gonna bring this up in another thread, but yeah, if Sony are saying this gen's only half over then frankly that should terrify DTG if they ain't targeting gen 9 hardware. Frankly with the rumors of the PS6 handheld I wonder if Gen 10's even gonna be the big leap a lot of people here are expecting. I could honestly see a scenario where the PS6 "Home" just ends up being PS5 Pro Pro, with games being developed more around the limitations of the handheld.

 

*shrugs*
The original thread is about "Will TSW disappear?"
I think it's doing okay now, but the disconnects between parties are beginning and should be addressed at some point.
You're free to have your own opinions based on your own experiences.
Just sharing mine for perspective having seen both "sides" of the issue.
What you do with it is up to you.
I don't see it as a "blame" game as much as misunderstandings between all parties involved.

 

I just think that blaming console players 'demands' for all that is wrong with the game, is barmy.

As if DTG are just helpless passengers in the car crash, who can do nothing but acquiesce to the demands of a ruthless bunch of Xbox and PS owners.

All I have ever said as a console owner is do what you have to do to provide a game that runs better on the platform it should have been designed for and if that means taking something out then so be it. But also please at least try and gauge what is actually most important to console players before you do it.

If that is an unrealistic demand, then so be it I guess!!

Also I think the PC version should run great on PCs for PC players and if they can push that version a bit harder to match the specs of better hardware, then great, go for it.

 

TSW won't be going anywhere, even if DTG stop making stuff.

Take a look at TSC, while its becoming a more niche hobby there continue to be new third party releases. What is it? Nearly 5 years since DTG made their last significant UK DLC (the excellent extended Chatham line) for TSC and there are still new TP routes and traction that I know are in development.

If DTG were to abandon the TSW franchise, I see a similar situation. We'll continue to get official releases, hopefully traction/route enhancement packs too, but just not made by DTG.

 

Which might actually help the situation. I think DTG have made some great stuff and there is defo talent there, but not sure the heart is really in it anymore.

 

That's how you understand it, okay. Not how it was said though. I said player demands...of which console players are part of the player base. Not JUST console players. I also explained the misunderstanding and that it's not about "fault" or "blame."

Your statements come from personal rather than generalized group interest and that I think is why you're misreading entirely what I wrote. You aren't the one to decide what is "most important to all console players." You aren't the "King of the console gamers" are you?

Even if you aren't personally asking for more content in DLC, many players are including many console gamers who are the majority of the audience. There ARE demands for more content. Just look across the forum.
How many people are asking for the same or less level of detail, animation, NPCs, route length, features, etc?

A lot of those people around demanding TSW STOP adding more features?

If not...then you are demanding more features and upgrades. Again, if you personally aren't that's fine but you aren't all players so I'm puzzled why you're personally offended that a generalization to the player base as a whole (also PC players) was taken by you as a personal attack.

Get over yourself.

It is an unrealistic demand that DTG personally contact you individually to approve their plans. I never said they were without blemish, nor that any players were to "blame", I clearly said it's simple cause and effect. There's no need to get upset about it.

In fact, your outburst only shows you aren't interested in seeking understanding but rather venting a grievance. On the contrary, I think both DTG and the player base can try to understand each other better. That involves being realistic about future growth potential and what is and should be the plan forward for TSW.

As long as DTG is trying to add more features and "stuff" to routes to please those outspoken about the "latest and best improvements" you won't get a focus on stability and bug fixing optimized for consoles and lower end PCs. They are opposing goals.

If you are for stopping "upgrades" and focusing instead on sustaining the existing level of tech and "fixing bugs" then I'm 100% with you.
However, if you want "more" then yes that is part of the problem.

To be clear, that doesn't mean stopping "content" in the form of new DLC. Just no more COMPLEX and hardware intensive. Not more layers, not more animation, not more AI like NPCs, etc. New routes and locos at the current level can still be churned out, just not more "advanced" with "new features."

Frankfurt was a great example of what not to do in that regard.
Way too many layers and moving stock for lower end computers and consoles. Then when DTG tried to reduce that load to make it work on those systems, they were attacked for giving players an "inferior product." Instead, I think the lower-end "reduced load" should be the "standard" and not overdeveloped for higher end PCs. But... that requires accepting that "reduced load" as normal.

Are you willing to make that commitment until the hardware catches up?

 

I used to be a double dipper. I had content on PC & PS5. Not anymore.
Anyone saying the gen9 consoles can't cope is missing the point entirely.
People keep harping on about a train sim being a unique problem etc, I am not a programmer, so that may indeed be the case.
But let's not forget, whilst TSW can look good at times, there are many Gen9 games that look far, far better than TSW ever will.
There are also many titles that run far better than TSW ever will, and still look good. DTG have been caught out, probably by decisions made early in the life of TSW. The can has been kicked so far down the road, it's now too late without starting over.
A few examples:
Consistent features of the game built into the core. (eg, tunnel reverb) - Nope
List of consistent features each DLC MUST have ? - Nope (This then feels like some DLC has gone backwards)
DX12 to make full use of GPU`s ? - Nope (Not officially anyway)
DLSS or FSR (Or console equivalents) to improve framerates ? - Nope (Might this help the texture issue?)
Route optimisations ? - Barely
Bug Fixes ? - As little as possible
Communication? - Not Really, The community managers come on here and say what they are told to say.

This whole fiasco has nothing to do with underpowered consoles, and more to do with a lack of ability/knowledge and or willingness to address the issues the game has. This comes from the top.
I cannot for one minute believe Matt P enjoys his pride and joy being ridiculed on streams and forums.

 

Point is proven with today's announcement..

Team are out of office at an expo..
While the patch that was due last week is still MIA.. (and according to a post on another thread by dtg staff still has no date)
But dont worry if you pry open your wallets you can get a shiny new DLC! That'll fix it all!

I beg my other console players to not fall into the trap again!! Stop supporting this lot till they actually make an effort to fix what already exists!!

 

DTG says:

"...we're no longer planning to host a livestream this week. Our teams are currently busy supporting the To The Moon Expo in Birmingham over the next couple days, and also planning our next big events, which you'll hopefully see more about soon!"

What will these great events be???

 

Pretty sure the public-facing team at the expo is not also the devs working on the patches.

 

Id hope not... but thats how I took this post..
https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/birmingham-crewe-feedback-thread.94801/page-13#post-1064347

"...and the DTG team to be fully back in the office to address any major concerns"

 

DTG has ~170 current employees listed on LinkedIn. A show / expo will require 5-10 people, usually public-facing. They're not taking the entire development team with them, they're just warning us that management and community facing staff will be out of office and so not to expect any live streams or responses this week.

 

This does make more sense TBH.. the tin foil hat does creep on fairly easy unfortunately!

Just again the communication.. last weeks core patch.. due midweek this week.. and the only announcement we see is about staff being away... and a comment saying the patch is both getting finishing touches.. but is also with the storefronts waiting final approval..
Im just confused as to where that core patch is.. so im grasping at the speculation straws! That's my bad!

 

Yeah they could communicate better, can't argue with that... If the patch needs more work or they want to add extra fixes to it that's fine, just announce it and then lock the thread (but then speculation will pop up elsewhere anyway...)

Had a similar case at work last week, and a good example of why communication is important. New version of one of our solutions with various security enhancements was due out second week of November. Got pushed back last minute due to not passing QA (which is a GOOD thing) but no internal announcement to tell anyone outside of R&D. A major new customer needed this version to start their rollout and was expecting it to land last week, as announced, so they went and put on a nice big webinar to inform the relevant senior managers of its (many) corporate entities that deployment was beginning this week. We found out about the delay an hour after their webinar had ended. They were.... not best pleased (as you're entitled to be when your turnover is £20+ billion).

All it would have taken was a call or e-mail to warn other staff of the delay and the whole thing would have been reduced to a far less severe inconvenience.

Ok so a patch for a game isn't quite as serious (although £20Bn is probably close to what I've spent on DLC now) but still, managing expectations is what it's all about, especially when you have a community management team dedicated to communicating with customers. Even just a "we intend to fix this and that" type post would go miles towards reducing the complaints, as only the most negative voices here would continue to complain about something they know is being fixed.

 

Fully agree!!
I get they cant communicate every miniature update.. but like you say.. just a small bump.. were still on it.. making good progress.. whatever it may be..
especiallin situations like this core patch we have been told to expect it mid week... So mid week comes.. maybe say something insted of letting us put the peices together (rightly or wrongly)

And genuinely laughing at the 20Bn on DLC.. it does feel that way at times!!

 

Problem is, they often do say that and then, well, don't fix it at all, ever.

And you can go and look, years later and these things are still broken.

I often type in bugs to google and get some forum page or other flagged up from the early 2020s, with someone complaining about the exact same issue and then someone with a DTG badge popping up and saying, 'yep, we know and we have a fix', only for said fix to never be implemented.

 

aka "Passed to Engineering..." never to be heard of again (like more save slots or fixing the save game follow on service bugs).