Dovetail Games Season Of Reveals 2025 - Week 3

I would be happy if at least on each platform would be a hopping marker. Because that would make it possible "only" to exit the loco, walk some metres on the platform; hopping to the next route, walking to the loco and get in again. So you dont need to change the platform to get the hopping marker

Who knows, perhaps some day someone brings Birmingham - Rugby - Northampton - Milton Keynes. Then the gaps would be filled.

 

Really pleased with the latest additions in particular the trent valley and jt routes they will be day 1 purchases for me.

 

week 3 reveals hold a lot of promise, much better than last years efforts. The return of Steam is great news and I for one fully support the WCML extensions. It will be great to have a full run up the WCML. Lets hope its all delivered in a timely manner now

 

And what would the expected timescales be?

 

What a somewhat strange announcement...some kind of...well...just a short look at the map...


(Von kjunix and MCMC - derived from Image:Karte Neckartalbahn.svg and Image:Topografie Baden-Wuerttemberg Nord.png, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=1774356)

Two Geman releases (Back-to-back...,Stuttgart-Heilbronn, Neckarelz-Heidelberg) with a gap of somewhat 25 km-30 km in it...and well, a gap of somewhat 30 years for the timetable...and yes, in both years, there were trains like Stuttgart-Heilbronn-Neckarelz-Eberbach(-Hanau/Darmstadt-Frankfurt (called 'Odenwald-Neckar-Express')) in the timetable (changing locos (BR 110 to BR 215/216/218) in Eberbach).

Well, how about three in a row...next german route Hessische Odenwaldbahn Hanau/Darmstadt to Wiebelsbach-Heubach or something alike...^^.

 

Most excited for the Cumbrian coast. All we need now is more East Coast content. Perhaps Carlisle to Newcastle via the Tyne Valley, then Newcastle - Doncaster - Leeds

 

You are mistaken. The week 1 article said, for week 3, "Expect 3 New Add-on announcements, 2 Add-on Updates". No mention of region.

 

So that's it then, still no new Scottish route. Sigh.

 

I was wondering the same and looking at my Steam Wallet. As regards JT well they haven't even given a date for Preston to Crewe yet so I'm guessing Carlisle to Whitehaven would be summer at the earliest.

For the German route, trying to remember when Mittenwald released, could we be looking at 12 months on from that?

And got a feeling the AABS route will definitely be pushing into TSW7 territory, I mean they still have work to do patching up B2C before turning focus to the next project.

 

It's sad that I can't be hyped for these releases as I know know that every piece of DLC will be a blurry mess. (JT route may evade it as neither of their routes suffer it)

 

Can't wait for Lisbon Setubal. This CP 3500 EMU reminds me previous generation of french TER Z2N. I'd love to see more routes from France (maybe one day Cannes-Ventimiglia in TSW, my dream...) so in the meantime, I hope to have a lot of fun with this Portuguese route.
I love the sound of this train, I hope they can record real sounds for the game.

 

Some people get excited doing the same thing all the time. I know people who go on holiday to the same place every year.
I think people like that are dull and suffer from a complete lack of adventure and imagination.

The same is happening with TSW. It would be nice at this stage to get some comments from DTG about why there is this avalanche of WCML content and whether other areas of the network are going to get their turn. This was how it used to be in the good old days of TSC. I'd love to think that I've invested hundreds of pounds on this franchise because a line that's in my top ten might get a look in at some point but this feels more and more remote with each London Midland Region DLC announced.

And for those who've shown excitement about more of the same. I'm pleased for you, enjoy your holiday at the same resort as last time.

 

For me the BR23 announcement is the best news of this reveal. I have been standing at a 1 meter distance of this loco and this is so impressive.

 

As I mentioned in the Q&A, is it just me or is this pretty much all 3P stuff, nothing from DTG themselves?

 

Yeah, I noticed no mid-cycle title from DTG.
We got Cardiff Network last year, GOBLIN the year before. It's all third party stuff.
This at least gives me some hope that someone will release something genuinely different and imaginative for those of us who didn't grow up obsessed with rail services in the North West.

 

Focus on new, fundamental improvements.

This suggests that the old, long-buggy improvements won't be fixed.

 

Though we know Cardiff was outsourced to Rivet, who it seems have nothing under their own banner on the Roadmap. Does this mean DTG and Rivet are now effectively co-working together as one unit. Even if not very good, I’m surprised there’s not either a Scottish route and/or new Swiss route to come from their stable.

 

To be honest, I find this promising. Let 3Ps release routes and DLC, while DTG predominately works on fixing the core. Sounds like a good interim solution to me - so glad to see it is what they are doing.

 

Very, very quiet on 1P content from DTG this year in general.

Now is it more likely they're all working away on "core improvements", which will generate zero revenue for Focus, or are they in early stages of developing a new train sim based in UE5?

I know which one i'd lean towards if i was a betting man

 

Yes I find it very unlikely that DTG would cease almost all content production to work on stabilisation. I don’t want to be that guy who complains no matter what & put DTG into a position where they can’t win either way, but this scenario is too good to be true. I especially don’t believe they’d take such a path without making a song & dance out of announcing it.

Every single time the content from DTG dries up, it’s always been followed by the announcement of a bigger product to sell, so I suspect that’s what is really going on. If it’s that arcade thing they’re working on I don’t know, but almost anything is more likely than them halting the conveyer belt of production.

 

Yup, because afaik the conveyor belt CAN'T be stopped- it's literally the only thing keeping the lights on, especially with them offering a free upgrade path with the past two iterations.

Mayyyybe 3P revenue has become substantial and reliable enough to where that's no longer true? I certainly don't know what kind of revenue split is in place there, so it's a possibility.

I still say where there's smoke, there's fire, though. My prediction (so i can look really stupid in the future lol) is that TSWUE5 releases in Fall 2027 around the time we'd expect to see TSW8.

 

I must admit I'm left with a much better feeling after this reveal than last year's. A little light on the US content, but atleast a new freight route has been announced. For all the criticism HIS get, their routes in TSC are actually pretty good, so I hope their TSW route will be as well.

The biggest highlight for me is the return of steam and seeing there might be improvements to the simulation was a nice surprise. I think it is a good strategy to release steam content together with another form of traction like done here, so the risk of selling steam might be reduced. I'm also surprised to see a new JT route being announced so early. From how much time the previous routes has taken to release, the lack of images, and that the Preston-Crewe route hasn't released yet, it makes me wonder if it will be out before TSW 7. Regardless, I'm hyped for another JT 80s route and finally another 1st gen DMU as well.

You also have to take into account that most of the people producing the DLCs probably aren't the same people fixing the core issues. It might be that DTG has over a period of time changed their employees to have more people who work on the core and way less on DLCs, but from DTGs history I kinda doubt it.

 

I think we have to get used to this. Their focus has probably shifted to ventures like " Metro Rivals " and other projects not yet announced, maybe even changes to the game engine.

If it means we're going to get routes and trains from different regions and earlier eras, then the shift to 3P's is not necessarily a bad thing.

The only caveat would be that DTG, as the publisher, needs to exercise much closer and better oversight on quality and playability than they are doing currently.

 

DTG used to build three routes at a time, that dropped to two when one of the teams started work on Metro Rivals (Rivet picked up the slack by making Cardiff). Now it appears one of the remaining teams is focussed on core while the other works on Stamford, personally I am more than happy with that as the core needs fixing.

 

Oh I don’t disagree with that which is what many of us have been saying for a while, only to get the response from the usual suspect(s) that route developers are not those who work on core code. Seems that was somewhat inaccurate…

 

Which are still West Coast =-)

 

Well that's three potentially good routes I might get. Not bad. Can't expect every route to be for everyone.

 

Remember Rivet did Riviera too fella….

 

No, definitely not in fall.
Probably at a different time (for example, in spring, as happened with the TSW CSX Heavy Hault), as it's highly unlikely that the current TSW will be completely destroyed by a saber blow any time soon.
For quite some time, two programs will coexist.
After that, some argue that some current add-ons will be ported to UE5 (though I don't know how this could be implemented), while others still believe the current Core will be improved (?).
What's certain is that a new program without layers is a real conundrum.
Having a program with new visual features while simultaneously having old add-ons without the latest features (which already happened with ToD3-ToD4) is another hassle, and finally, starting all over again is not easy to stomach.

 

Oh yes, quite true. So it's entirely possible Rivet have already been tasked with working on the 2026 big summer aka TSW7 UK route!

 

I can already see them forcing us to buy all the dlcs again
If that's the condition, then I'm done with tsw and dtg as well

 

That's never happened and there's no reason for it to happen.
Why do you assume it will?

 

because it's clear that in the not-too-distant future there will be a TSW UE5 edition, and obviously the current dlcs won't be ported to it (or maybe, with a lot of luck, only half a dozen)

 

Why "obviously?"
Not only has any DTG I've read so far said it "wasn't worth it at this time" to switch, but you can port things over.
It'd take some work, but they aren't entirely different systems like Mac and PC or BASIC and COBOL.
It's more like going from Windows 10 to Windows 11.

But again, they haven't even said they were going to UE5.
It's an assumption you're making, along with the assumption that they wouldn't be able to put older DLC on a newer system.
Neither of those are remotely proven.
Then to assume thirdly they are just greedy bastards who want to make a buck.....
That's a trifecta of things that have no basis in fact.

Maybe save the "I'm done with them" for when they've actually DONE something to warrant it and not just a series of hypotheticals in your head?

 

Yeah could be Spring '28 instead for sure, part of the calculus will also depend on when Gen10 consoles make their debut- i'm sure TSW will then move into maintenance mode like TSC is currently as there are a ton of 3P projects already in the pipeline.

I simply don't believe that the core can be fixed in the current TSW. I think they know that too, but are understandably reluctant to say so. For the sim to continue to move forward overall, they have to start over.

The issue of existing content layers is a really tough one though- the blowback when they tried to cut the cord on the TSW>TSW2 transition was so fierce they almost immediately bactracked. I don't think they can try that again- in 2025 gamers expect to be able to continue to use stuff they paid for- it's not something unique to TSW, look at how badly Destiny 2 suffered after making tons of legacy content unplayable. TSW just has the extra "benefit" of being almost entirely dependent on additional DLC.

So, what do they do?

I think they have to try to port as much as possible over to the new game. It's that simple imo. They have to at least try.

I guess i'm hopeful that with 3P releases really picking up, they'll have both the time and financial overhead to do this the right way. One benefit will be that the jump from UE4.X to UE5 won't be nearly as steep of a learning curve for the devs as going from the bespoke Kuju/Railworks monstrosity to UE was.

But, we all know there will be routes and locos that don't get carried over for one reason or another. Despite best efforts some DLC might just be too borked to port, or there will be licensing problems, etc

I think an option i would be ok with, and i only speak for myself, is that layers currently provided by routes or locos that can't be ported over be included in the base package of the new game as AI-only traffic. This would at least avoid the empty cavernous stations of early-days TSW as well as provide some ongoing value for money already spent.

I don't really see many other viable options- continue to actively develop TSW but limit new features to the new sim? Think about how much anger there already is regarding lack of parity in performance and features between PC and console...not to mention running two dev teams in parallel on very similar projects.....i just can't see it working financially or practically.

I just hope above all else that they're as transparent with the community as possible.

 

That was the original plan from TSW>TSW2. Nothing was going to carry over under DTG's original plan. It's not an unreasonable fear.

 

The Cumbrian Coast Line isn't part of the WCML.

 

No, it just connects to it, sort of parallels it, two other JT routes are WCML. So.. half their content is WCML and all of it is connected to it.
I'm fine with it.
Just saying they aren't the example of someone making "totally different" content.
You might want to suggest Cardiff or Fife or Mildmay for something "different."
Not a company that is entirely connected to/on the WCML.

Besides, the point is irrelevant. With these announcements, the WCML up to Carlisle will be complete. There's nothing else to make. By default, they have to work on something else.

There might be a couple connections off it, but that's low hanging fruit. I'm guessing (total speculation) that the East Coast will be a focus next for the same "full line" treatment until that's done.

If I were JT, I'd run across the country from Carlisle to start at that end, but again just guessing.

In any case, you will HAVE to get more variety because there's no WCML left.

 

The summary of the 3 weeks of reveals overall for me paints a sad picture. At least in every week we got something revealed that we already have known and seen (Tadami, CZ Route, PT Route). The only real surprise is the TSG route, but looking into history it shouldnt be much of one, since TSG is basically two teams as Maik once wrote himself, that he allowed Lukas and the team to publish their work under the TSG brand, so basically this route is their new project. I hope the electric traction will also be decent since steam might or might not be what we expect in terms of physics.

In addition, yeah we only really know of the US route and the 147 as upcoming content by DTG, and there is an abundance of UK content in various stages of planning and execution. Another variant of a Hitachi train from a team that has a bad track record and has yet to deliver their previous project which also is a Hitachi train by chance.

Overall this brings up in me the same questions, is development dead? Or are they really investing time into the quality side. We will never know firsthand, but we all feel which is the more likely. We will get lied to or deflected answers by the community team and face the truth only when its inevitable, as usual every year.

This time it feels diffrerent. We already know publicly of Metro Rivals, a different team developing that (different team can still be same development level people with different management and everyone is saying the truth lol), but the more worrying is the rate at which developers seem to have left or setup a second revenue stream over the years. My gut tells me we are not told the complete story

- Adam went to Skyhook long time ago
- Lukas has his projects with TSG besides DTG, its fuzzy to me if the other members of that team are also originally DTG
- Brandon was a contractor for US content and is now gone
- Liam said GWE is the last remaster and is planning to release his own content under a different entity
- Rivet is subcontracted for UK content more and more often for DTG branded content
- TSG(mainly Maik and his team) is subcontracted more and more for DE loco setup for DTG branded content, this seemingly has already delayed TSG branded projects over the years.

In conclusion, I feel there is no more 3 route teams at DTG, at best they have the capacity to develop 1 route in house without contracting work. But they have like 5 or 6 community team members now, we all needed that, right? Right?

 

It's a natural move to a royalty model, which is good business sense. The concept was proven with TSC, which turned into a golden goose, funding all the other products. DTG reap the rewards of creating the platform, third parties create the content, paying for access. Power to them all. Congratulations on reaching this milestone again, DTG.

 

Absolutely.
To avoid seeing this situation, I'd say you'd have to purposely turn your face away.

 

It's not exactly shocking that DTG is doing exactly what they had planned on doing and told us about.
As Daytona mentioned, it worked well in TSC.
This is the most development I've seen on the board yet, so I'm not sure why you sound depressed, zsolt.

 

Steam is the big one for me because I find modern locos/MUs too easy. I've always loved the look of continental steam locos and the DB BR 23 is a classic.
As ever, a transition era route with steam, diesel & electric makes perfect sense, to widen the appeal. Although more interested in historical UK routes, I've long admired Train Sim Germany, and I'm looking forward to sending them some money.

The Cumbrian Coast route from Just Trains looks intriguing. Hopefully there's some General Utility Vans or Siphon-Gs for the 108.

The extended WCML coverage is a great development, there's clearly player demand for it.

 

What do i find depressing? That TSC had a community developing addons in the editor for as long as it existed, it was available easily and was fairly easy to learn. Multiple websites full of free or paid content.

Compare it to TSW where the Editor launched 2 years ago still cannot properly package a piece of content, and needs a completely different storefront to download it from as the game itself. Compare the number of content pieces between early TSC/Railworks and TSW. It is different. If DTG abandons ship, this game is doomed with or without the 3rd party addons.

If you look at Trainsimcommunity, most mods are visual tweaks and timetables, not a single acceptably quality piece of rolling stock was community developed. Because of the complexity Simugraph adds.

 

DTG are seemingly more interested in simply being a ‘publisher’ now rather than an outright developer as far as I’m concerned.

 

From talking to someone that works with UE…I’m told that content for TSW5 using UE4.x could be ported to UE5. There is a bit of worked involved but its not impossible. Again, the excuse from DTG is ‘it can’t be done’ is poor. I simply don't think the talent or the will is there in the the first place!

 

Did they say "can't be done" or "not worth it?" What I read was that they weren't planning on going to UE5 at all because it didn't offer enough of an advantage to justify the extra work to port everything over. Have you seen anything recently that supports them both going to UE5 and not moving DLC there? That's two HUGE assumptions.

 

Yup.
And that's a good idea.