There are several people who regularly seem to have purchased the latest route or other DLC and are then regretting it. I don't often buy on day one and wait for things to be put right, i.e. the recent All Aboard Route. I have quite a list of DLC not yet purchased and may never do. But apparently I am the disciple, enabler, fan boy or whatever immature moniker is the latest.
It's not expensive. I spend more then the most expensive dlc on coffee every day. Value for money depends on how much you play. As I realized in another post, I've spent 5 hours in total on tsw 6. Although I got it discounted in the sale, I'd call that a waste of money. Then I find most of the routes being released lately, mind numbingly boring! On the other hand, if you have a player that's put 300+ hours into a route already, they are getting enjoyment out of it and getting their money's worth.
If we look at another hobby away from the world of train simulation; a physical copy of an album that you get to hold and keep for as long as you want it will start at around the £12 mark (Vinyl is usually about double but let's stick to CDs), a digital copy of an album is usually around the £8 mark, so 75% of the physical copy. Now I don't have any insight into the costs of running a games development company, but I do know some recording artists and the profit margin on writing, recording and releasing music these days is virtually nil. Most acts that aren't "legacy artists" (as well-known, long-established artists are referred to in the industry) make their money from touring, a second day job, merchandise and, if they're really lucky, Royalties these days, so that £8 you're spending is pretty much "cost price". Bringing it back to railway simulation. A physical Hornby OO Gauge 4 car multiple unit will set you back around £350. Losing that premium for something that is just a download then you're looking at £25-£30. Could you build a new OO-gauge layout for £30? Of course not. I don't know how many hours of development and manufacturing the final product goes into making a model train with authentic sounds, but I do know the interiors of carriages on models are rarely well modelled, unlike in TSW. They're made of relatively cheap plastic so the cost of materials, packaging and shipping don't cost £320 per unit. I'm not suggesting that TSW DLC should be 75% of £350, but it's a very good thing for us lot that railway simulation is more popular than model railways these days and therefore TSW is a signifcantly cheaper hobby from its analogue, physical equivalent. Would I love it to be cheaper? Of course I would, I want everything to be cheaper. But I'm also a pragmatist. DLC prices are fine, it's up to the consumer to decide what releases are worth the cost though, £30 on a route you spend many hours driving is a relative bargain, £30 on a route you play once is a lot of money.
Competition is not the same as "supply and demand". "Supply" in a video game is "infinite" since you can keep making copies. Competition yes is limited, but that's also because the market is so small few people want to chase it. Why make games for 5,000 players when you can make them for 50,000 players or more? Your definition of "value" used here is misleading. You are automatically correlating what you value as what is valuable to everyone. Value is individual because individuals are buying the product. I am not buying the product for you, and you aren't buying it for me. We are each buying for what we personally like. It's not universal at all. If that were true, then people would all only be buying the exact same few routes as the "good ones." If you think something is "expensive" for you, then that's fine. It's a judgement for you to make for you. If you think something isn't worth the cost to buy it, that's fine. You don't have to buy it. You can't make that decision for someone else, only give your own assessment based on your priorities. That's why it's so hard at times to suggest "good routes" in game when asked because we have to give the requester what they are looking for, not what we personally enjoy. If they ask for a "fun German passenger route with modern EMUs" well I tend to loathe those routes personally but it's not for me, it's for the person asking to enjoy. Those routes have little to no "value" to me, but they have a lot of "value" to the person who loves that sort of thing. Now there's an argument to be made for product versus promotion (what is advertised vs what is delivered) but even then, priorities matter. The amount of variation from the "perfect" is different per person. If a "horn isn't quite right" or "the color isn't quite right"... that may be a BIG issue for one person but not matter at ALL for another, even if it's not technically "correct." If I've never even seen that passenger coach in real life, let alone the color tone it might be fine. On the other hand it might annoy a person who rides the route every day to work. Value is a personal assessment.
Personally, I would be happy to pay more for one off loco packs if that meant we got more of them faster. Especially once steam traction is sorted and back in regular production. So many possibilities.
The DLC is quite a bit expensive and it would be better if it was toned down just slightly. I do think £30+ is just a tad bit high but with that said I would still rather have this rather than having subscription type DLC which has been brought up on here a good few times. Hands down. once you’ve bought it it’s yours to keep forever and that’s the way it should always be.
As a resident of a 3rd world country, it's a bit interesting to see what people in the 1st world are writing when they're surprised that DLCs are getting more expensive. All my adult life I have seen inflation reaching tens of percent per year and it no longer surprises me at all. I'd like to ask a question: what isn't getting more expensive now (your work haha )? It feels like prices are rising everywhere you look. Six years ago, I bought my car for about $22,000. Now they're announcing a new generation, and prices are starting at €29,900. Everyday goods? Everything is getting more expensive. Several years ago, I found an old newspaper from 2000 in my grandmother's summer house. There was an article where a local store was holding a prize draw with certificates given out for purchases over ~$20. We interviewed one shopper who, in the photo, had filled a whole cart with groceries worth $40. Yesterday I stopped by the store and bought about $10 worth of essentials for home. I didn't even need a bag to carry all my groceries to the car; two pockets of my winter jacket and one hand were enough. Are you surprised that DLCs are getting more expensive?
vodka#2734 Absolutely true. I often wonder whether those complaining about DLC price rises are in some way insulated from inflation. That is, either still living at their parental home and therefore not acutely aware of the recent surge in the cost of doing or buying anything or are "cash-rich" in that they still have more money coming in than going out. If I go back ten years to when most DLC was £20-25 my monthly bills were around the £1,200 mark, now they're £1,800 a month and DLC is £25-35 which seems like a very similar increase. In the same time my wage hasn't moved. Not just me, nearly everyone I know across all the imaginable work sectors are now worse off than 10 years ago. So it's a good point about wages, but that's not the fault of DTG or anyone else who sells us things we want rather than need.
I'm fairly new to the TSW franchise, only getting onboard in December 2024. My big impression of most users on the forums is that most are not gamers at all and have a wide inexperience of the gaming industry and games. I got the TSW with the free pack and buy most of the DLC on sales, because while I'm waiting for a route etc there are other games I can enjoy. There is a sale every six weeks, with up to 90% off and sometimes for free. So, I got the free pack and I think my first two routes for 50% in the sales. Absolute bargain. The licencing is complex that most non-gamers wont understand. You are not just paying for the licence for the livery/branding of the rolling stock but also the assets too. Modelling a bombardier engine and selling that likeness also costs licensing. The same also applies to many of the places you see in the game, from churches, train stations, arenas and yes, even businesses (they had to use Carpetwrong in one instance). Even the aircraft in the game need to pay for licensing too. Its one of the reasons why model train sets are so expensive too - use of the branding and the likeness. I see TSW as a realistic digital train set. Why I mention non-gamers is because no one ever compares TSW to other game franchises when having a moan. its like they have never even seen another game. Look at the Sims and the constant add ons and prices for those. £35 just for a collage add on to the game?? Or some of my other favourite games, Cities Skyline or Stellarris. The DLC for them is expensive considering what you are actually buying. Dont even get me started on Flight Sims.... Well, ok then just you wait until you see MS Flight Simulator 2024 with the 'Standard' game costing £69.99 and the full thing £199! That is too expensive and too buggy even for me. FS2024 is probably the closest comparison to TSW in term of delivering a niche sim. The difference between the two speaks volumes. Indeed the TSW games can be buggy, DTG can/should do much better with game testing and QC. But compared to the entire Todd Howard franchise too we have it easy. Think Skyrim and the Fallout franchise. Or Far Cry series...I think those games were written as bugs. Civilisation too, oh god its buggy. With the most famous bug ever created (way back in Civ 1) that is now incorporated into the full franchise. The Nuclear Gandhi bug. In my 35 years of being a gamer, and making like-for-like comparisons the TSW franchise is pretty good and pretty fair. Especially when compared to Kerbal Space Programme 2 City Skylines 2. Can it do better? yes! But is it fair? hell yes. The amount of hours ive spent playing compared to what I've paid is 10/10 for me. its turning into my most loved game because the sheer cathartic joy of hurtling down the British countryside cant be put into words....
Normally I am "ok" with the prices, when you get a good route or train. But the last German route Stuttgart Heilbronn is a big disappointment on Xbox. Yes, you get two new trains but the route runs terrible. Blurry textures are less on the route, but it stutters like Bremen Oldenburg. The 140 is bugged in the formation designer and the game crashes every time before arriving Stuttgart. This route is definitely not worth the price at the moment on Xbox. The Expert 101 for example is worth the money!
It's going to be interesting to see how much the SimRail CD 163 is selling for when it comes out on 25th January. Sportsman's bet, less than £10.
In our country we have a swear word (I condemn it) something like: we are “loved” (bad word with F) and we only get stronger Well said. It's an entertainment product, especially a niche one. Strictly speaking, it's a free market. If you don't want it, or can't buy it at that price, then pass it by. Nobody forces anyone to buy, and certainly no one holds sales. Come back when you have enough money - no one has ever died from a lack of games.
FYI, the first post you're quoting was deleted for language (what it was comparing price inflation to)
I got into TSW mainly to play ICE trains, but then I got into German, UK, US, Austrian and other content... I think I only dont play Swiss content (Luzern Sursee included, the rest cos it is mostly mountain railways) and US freight (tho I had some fun runs on Cajon Pass)... and I love em all - I play German and Austrian content if I want challenge and strict enforcement of safety stuff, US for interesting gameplay (and strict safety stuff as well, in case of ATC/ACSES; in case of passenger diesels, it is interesting loco setup and speed management) and of course, if I want chill, I play UK content and even tho these days I play tons of Monster Hunter World, I always get back for some action in TSW, so maybe soon I pass 4k hrs mark some content I buy fresh cos I want it, other times I wait for discounts
yeah, with my income i feel they are too expensive, if i was a multimillionaire businessman i would have every british tsw route by now
i bought one route at full price and i like the route but not for £30 especially when it crashes arriving at new street or crewe
Like youtube Especially youtube Youtube: puts more and more adverts on every video longer than a second also youtube: why are people using adblockers
how are there this many responses i literally wrote this 24hrs ago at 1am.. Im sorry i cant respond to you all in the space of a day
Mate you can do this in a single post. But true, if you're using your phone, that's less convenient to do as with a PC on a large screen...
You don’t need to respond to every post. That would take you ages and it isn’t necessary. It’s just a general conversation now.
Personally I don't think the DLCs are that expensive. DLCs remained at the same prices for roughly 5 years. There wasn't any rises for inflation during that time. Whilst I did think the class 86 DLC for Preston - Carlisle was expensive at first, there was a lot of work that went into said loco and the coaches that came as part of the DLC. I see it this way. Am I going to get hours of enjoyment from a route DLC? Yes, especially if it has a packed out timetable with variations of stock. Do I enjoy playing TSW and driving real life routes and timetables? Yes Do I only buy routes or stock that interest me? Yes Do I want to support devs and help them keep their jobs and the studio running? Yes Do I want to see real life train companies and their liveries and also manufacturers of locos/trains such as Hitachi etc? Yes and part of the cost of DLCs pays for the licencing from the manufacturer of said locos/trains and also from the train operating companies (LNER, GWR etc). Yes, TSW does have some faults (more appearing lately) and it's not possible to have 100% accuracy with scenery and assets but it's still fun to play and feel like a train driver for a while. Look at it another way. A visit to the movies to see a film which only lasts 2 hours costs around £15 just to watch the movie. That is even before you've bought popcorn or sweets and drinks. That's £7.50 an hour just for the movie and you can only watch it once. If a route DLC costs £35 ($40) and has say 300 playable services with an average length of 30 minutes each, that's 150 hours of driving fun for £35/$40. I can't even drive my own car for 150 hours for £35/$40, nevermind a real life train for that.
As regards pricing it’s also the nature of the content. If it was something new and different every time, then handing over 30 or even 33 simoleons might not seem so bad. But that price for yet another German 60km inter urban electrified route with the same Dostos and DB Red EMU’s is just more of the same old stale cake. Ditto the UK with a bland bus stop suburban electric route.
I love dostos, but thats maybe coming from a place of childhood admiration ... tho I would love to see more dosto EMUs in the game, like Stadler KISS of any kind, Rock/Caravaggio if we ever get Italian stuff in the game, Desiro HC and such... there is sth majestic about dosto EMUs blasting by at speed (I know we technically have TGV Duplex, but that one is CRIMINALLY underutilized)
For me, it depends. In example, a DLC is too expensive when: It comes with half of the services initially announced and a (temporary, but HOW temporary?!) walkaround this would be .......... uninstalling another route. Paaalese, WHAT??? Really? https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...table-services-for-stuttgart-heilbronn.95713/ Stuttgart - Heilbronn Feedback Thread Of course, the biggest problem here is DTG´s deafening silence and given their track record of fixes and patches, the planned day-one purchase goes down the drain and I MIGHT buy this route when it is 80% off. However, the biggest complaints re this topic should come from the PS4 owners. They got their DLCs cut down left and right and still pay the same price. Feel the love!
Their games, in all the post-PS4 era games released after the PS5, are always cut down or at the same price in one way or another. Sometimes they're not sold at all. How unfair!
While I have empathy with PS4 owners given the cost of upgrading to the current generation of machines, it's worth saying that most PC users here will have had that sinking feeling of resignation when they realise their prized machine is now, in gaming terms, a potato. I'm sitting next to my 8th PC in 36 years. Luckily the rate of progress has slowed a little, my current PC was a mid-spec gaming machine in 2021 and it can still run MSFS 24 on "High" 4k graphic settings (though it does struggle with big cities). There was a time when a 5 year old PC went in the skip because it couldn't even run the latest version of the OS, let alone games. It happens to every electronic gadget we own from a toaster to the car. The passing of time, the fast pace of technological breakthroughs, our gadgets like our bodies will slowly become obsolete.
I feel some products are fully worth their price and some aren't. Like quality-wise and content wise, it can be worth full price but a route like Frankfurt S-Bahn which got a reduced timetable for consoles with no reduction in price. Or I believe a route with no new traction should have a lower cost because of the licencing excuse sort of going out the window.
It would have been worth the price if they had built the underground part of the route too. Not cut it short because it’s too much of a hassle to develop…we have Bakerloo Line which is largely underground and it turned out pretty darn good….
I voted "too expensive" but only in the sense that that for the asking price, we should be getting routes that have been properly tested and they should be released alongside a core that gets constant updates and improvements, including bug fixes and taking into account customer feedback, rather than one that's been abandoned for the best part of four years. If routes and other DLC were released with only the odd minor issue then I'd find the prices more reasonable. I've gone from being a systematic day-one purchaser to someone who only buys DLC in the sales, and even then, only if there isn't a 30-page thread about it listing bugs. JB
Why do folk always use expensive alternatives to try justify the price of TSW addons? What about going to The Works, buying three books and having 30+ hours of entertainment for £7.50? Or buying Scrabble / Monopoly and having near-unlimited multiplayer action for as little as £15? At the end of the day, 2 TSW addons is almost the same price as a triple A game and as far as I'm concerned, in terms of quality of product and what you actually get for your money that's way too expensive.
From a third Party Dev perspective: The money i made with just one DLC is not enough to live from it (in germany). I dont know if i'm allowed to disclose how much I made with the 101 till now exactly, but to give a comparision: I still work for DB Fernverkehr as a Driver and Trainer on a 80% basis and I get more than double the amount of money from that (after taxes/social security contributions) as from the DLC. So just from that perspective I think the DLC are priced good, if your output is high enough to keep the releases flowin as else it gets really difficult to keep up with cost of living. Just one release a year per person is defo not enough to keep up, which is where we have to set a point how "expensive" we can make a DLC time-wise.
perfectly said!! I think very few users on this forum are creative types, nor worked in the creative industry. Its hard work, with a lot of time and money going into it, before you even see it for sale. I'm sure folks think creatives just pull a lever and hey, a new product. Yes, DTG is a business too, but it relies on the creative industry and creative workers.
Prior to TSW it was largely the case that most payware production was done by people working in their spare time as an aside to their main job. The two routes I was involved in for MSTS were certainly done on that basis and I never expected to get more than a bit of beer money for them. When it came to fortune and glory, it was most definitely the latter and not the former! Even now I struggle to see how anyone could really develop for TSW and expect to actually live on the proceeds. And to be brutally honest, the additional income ended up having to be declared outside PAYE to the UK taxman which meant I spent three years having to submit self assessment tax forms to the Inland Revenue, until the royalties dwindled to a pittance then dried up. It wasn't worth the hassle and I found going over to freeware for TSC and Trainz far more satisfactory.
OldVern I´ve done freeware for TSC and thought about monetizing the whole thing.... I came to the same conclusion as you did. It´s not worth the hassle. DTG has united everything Train Sim under one big office in Chatham and brought it to consoles. I guess that´s the way to do it.
I mean personally prefer owning my content too, but if the games player base started drying up, and that was the only profitable option for them then they could choose to go down that route. I’d always have TSC to fall back on myself, for my train fix
Its important to understand that videogames compete in the global market. DTG is a UK based company with offices near London. That is a first world country and one of the cities with the most expensive cost of living. They have to compete with software made in many places where the cost of living is quite lower. If your cost of living is lower you can charge lower prices and still have good business results compared to what is around you. As consumers, we do not see any of that. We just see different products with different prices and we choose the ones that better fit our preferences and budgets.
Fortnite and DBD (Dead by Daylight) players spend more than us lot on skins alone. We should take satisfaction in knowing that.
That's not strictly true. Codemasters were an independent UK studio, but instead of charging higher prices to offset our higher cost of living, they instead chose to go the other way by selling their games cheaper than the AAA rrp....and became a hugely successful company for doing so. Look, everyone harps on about how TSW is an extremely niche game and therefore they have to price their stuff high in order to make ends meet - but how does anyone know that's the only alternative? Have DTG ever released a new route addon at, say, £9.99 to see if becomes a more attractive proposition to those who may fancy a dabble but can't get their head around the £30 entry fee? No they haven't, they've just plodded on with their 'sooner bleed increasing amounts of money out of a small but guaranteed audience' policy in order to get by. I know it will never happen but nonetheless, I often wonder how Dovetail Games would react if they released a premium priced addon and absolutely nobody buys it.
You said it yourself, it will never happen... if there is no competition... Which is unlikely to happen given the niche aspect of this business. The circle is complete !
The problem is there will always be those who buy it regardless, even if it turned out to be a piece of horse droppings like Cardiff City, then justify paying £50 for it!
