Wos Isn’t Tsw.. Or Is It?

Well well well.. a Timetable mode within the game. This is going to please many of us seasoned TSW players!

I wonder if it the stories will follow the Scenario style set-up, and the Timetable will be the real-time explorable world part.

Hoping too that the ‘adaptable controls’ equals less setting paths and routes and more jump in and drive!

 

Much will hinge on whether there is an option to drive with realistic controls and physics. Or will it be some sort of godawful DCC type system?

 

Depends how realistic you would consider it.. but it states in the FAQ article that you can manually drive the trains from a first person in-cab perspective.

 

I meant as in realistic physics and train handling? Well as good as they can make steam work in the Simugraph environment.

 

Ah right. Well the preview stream starts tonight at 7pm apparently. I’m sure we’ll get a sense of it there..

 

Hmmm this game might actually be a test for steam simulation for tsw, similar to how the other game is a test for unreal engine 5

there’s a chance in tsw 7 we could get DTG steam locos

 

Doesn't seem like that, seems it will be basic throttle and brake controls with no reverser simulation (no way this is a test for steam engines when TSG are already working on them), but that's a lot better than the TSW Thomas DLC controls.

 

They mentioned both simple and realistic controls, on discord they even mentioned the levers etc

 

Yes, that would be the "basic throttle and brake controls with no reverser simulation" I mentioned.

 

So there is definitely some degree of throttle and reverser.

 

Honestly, this may be the perfect place for the "advanced" controls to just implement steam as it exists in TSW at present, with its systems that do not satisfy the hardcore simmers.

 

There's reverser for forwards and backwards, like I said.

 

Fair enough. Arguably a more Holiday Express style of gameplay provides a more accurate recreation of the 1 gauge AC models used in the show.

 

Can you elaborate, Matt?
Are we talking Trainz style DCC controls?
Railroader level steam simulation?
SimRail steam simulation (when you can get the brakes to stay released… ) .

I’m sure a purchase decision from many of us grizzled, hardened old simmers will hinge on at least the possibility of a semi realistic driving experience.

 

Yep ^

 

It's aimed at young children and Matt's already said the trains will drive the same way in both modes, so there's no way the "advanced" controls are going to involve managing steam output, water levels, pressure....

At best it will be forwards / backwards using the reverser with an automatic regulator, and maybe even automatic brakes. Maybe for fun they'll include the requirement to shovel coal, but I'd be very surprised if moving Thomas required any knowledge of how to fire a real steam locomotive.

JB

 

The FAQ explicitly states that the advanced controls are throttle and brake, with the reverser just being forwards/backwards.

 

Yeah I don't get the obsession with "advanced" controls for a kids game. Yes there's some older folks here too, but it's supposed to be easy for kids to grasp. They already said just basic throttle/reverser/brake. That's it. Basically even less than the current TSW steam which has cylinders and stuff. Why is there even that expectation it'll be "advanced" or even "semi-realistic?"

It'll be like the TTTE we had in TSW...except there's two modes... "forward/back" (as it is in the original DLC) and "simplified TSW steam mode." That's it. I'd be surprised if there's even headlight switches, as that's not really necessary for the game. However, I don't expect anything fancy because that's not the whole point of the game.

It's not like you're going to find the "real" Thomas the Tank Engine to compare it to. How can you be "realistic" when the original doesn't exist? It's about fun made up stories and a unique fictional setting, not realism.

We already have everything about Thomas in TSW for reference minus the three controls mentioned, so you already know the "physics" of it. Whether that's "realistic"... that depends on what you think "real" is for a fictional character. Not a "this model train with a face on it" but a fictional character. Based on real trains for inspiration, but it's still talking trains.

 

All true I just want to be able to select directions, set my throttle and brake positions and I'd be happy.
I didn't enjoy the hold the button to keep going controls of the tsw Thomas doc

 

100%.
The overly simplistic "hold to move" controls are a pain in the TTTE DLC.
I wonder if the new second mode will be retro-added to the Thomas we have on WSR.
Probably not, but it'd be nice.
Depends on how much work it would involve I suppose.
Although thinking about it, if the INTENT is to get kids from Sodor into TSW, then the idea would be for kids to progress in stages.
1) Basic controls on Sodor
2) "Standard" controls on Sodor
3) "Standard" controls on WSR (driving Thomas)
4) "Realistic" controls driving a "real" train on WSR

So if you don't include the "Standard" controls on TTTE on WSR, then it's kind of a backwards step for a kid learning how trains work, right?

 

I really have no idea what they were thinking with those, they weren't simpler at all.

 

Probably why we ended up getting the WSR add-on test DLC.. the distances between places were too far to keep my kids interested. Hopefully Sodor looks and feels more like a Brio train set in virtual form!

 

Seems like most people agreed. Well, we now know what at least some of the questions in the last user survey were about, don't we?

 

The issue with "simplified" controls like in Thomas is that they're ironically harder to deal with if you are already familiar with more complex controls. The best comparison I can think of is what it's like to play a shooter that only uses a single analog compared to one that uses two. Like yeah, in theory it is simpler, and indeed I can attest myself when I was younger I did find that easier to adapt to. But now when you're used to games that use dual analog (Or mouse) it's ironically hard to go back to games that use just one. The simplicity provided by having less inputs is offset by the fact it destroys your muscle memory and have less precise control over your character in general.

 

If the game is intended to be a realistic recreation of the TV series, then realistic steam physics clearly aren't required in it, as the TV models don't move realistically.

And as pointed out earlier, what is the performance envelope of something that has never existed? How do you get realistic physics for Thomas when you don't know his mass or boiler pressure? Is there any point trying to be realistic when Thomas has a face, speaks and has consciousness and emotions?

 

I'm all for trying to recreate how the model trains in the show move, over whatever the bizarre stop-start controls of Thomas on the WSR was supposed to be.

 

Pretty much every engine in the Thomas universe is based on a real world counterpart, so saying it’s never existed is wrong, some engines basis’ still exist however all the E2’s that Thomas was based on were scrapped, the information might be out there or could potentially be simulated using the plans, it depends how much detail they want to go into

 

People keep thinking that we as rail hobbyists and train simulator fans are the main target audience.

My guess is we are not.

DTG already have the Rail Hobbyists and simulator fans with TSC and TSW. This I believe is to go past that market.

They already said its using a dumbed down Simulgraph compared to TSW. And that is the reason it is able to be ported to Switch.

So no it won't be realistic like TSW is.

 

I've said before ages ago in the enough is enough thread, but the idea kids want "simple" really isn't accurate. Frankly kids often have more time to be perfect at a game than the adult do, lot of kids in the 80's mastered retro games that most adults consider "unplayable without cheats" nowadays. Lot of Nintendo games have just as much, if not more depth than the "adult" games oriented games from Sony and the like. Look into Smash or Mario Kart and there's a ton of depth to them, even games like the Mario platformers have a very high skill cellings.

If they have to simplify Simugraph for Switch than that's understandable, but let's not sell it as a "Need of the children". Frankly I do expect a lot of the market is going to be Thomas adults, especially when the cheapest way to play it is a premium handheld with pretty expensive games. (That we don't even know what performance it will have, and if it will be acceptable, so the reality might be that a 8th gen home or even 9th gen home might be the more realistic minimum for most)

 

I've watched kids be put off the Thomas DLC for TSW because of the unintuitive controls that have them throwing the controller at the screen, but then give the game a second chance when they saw the Flying Scotsman's in the game, and finishing a service with gold on it.

But yeah, I can 100% understand them simplifying the physics to make a game actually run on the hardware they are targeting, but with everything else they have set up expectations-wise with the game's aesthetics, they had better have at least got the characters to move like the models do in the show, to maintain the illusion.

 

To me the controls and the physics are different issues. The "physics" didn't bother me about the locos in WSR. They are what they are being fictional engines. ("Based on" real ones yes, but still in a kids series) I don't know how many tons Thomas is "supposed to have." He can take off quite unrealistically quick in the TV series for example without slippage, unlike a real steam locomotive, so to me that's "realistic" as it's what is being replicated.
The controls though, that's the counter-intuitive and clunky part. I do think that DTG/Mattel have learned their lesson from the WSR trial and recognize that "simple" doesn't mean "easier" or "fun."
It makes me wonder if they do have any actual kids testing the game, either officially paid or even kids of employees. While I never got the "we don't play our own game" vibe from TSW employees (indeed they do seem to), there's another level between "I play it" vs "If I were a kid, what would I want to see in it?" It's going from direct experience to projected experience.

Often kids or non-gamers can surprise you with their outside the box observations and experiences. If for example a lot of kids want to "go off the rails" and explore to "meet the other friends" off the track for example, go on "hiking trails" that might be a nice addition given it CAN be done pretty simply.

Or if they want to customize trains (like in say Derail Valley with plushies on the dash or something)
(Plushies they'd be able to presumably sell in the online store maybe?)

Or a more manual loading/unloading process like Railroads Online to get more "hands on."

Just spitballing here, but you get the idea. There's things that might add more value to the game or different ways to play that might not occur to an adult as needing or desired to be in the game.

 

Honestly, most of my thoughts and desires on the matter come from having been a child who used to LOVE playing with train sets, and who would fill in the gaps of the stuff not in the books and the show annyoing my parents by building train runs across the living room floor trying to emulate the lines on the big sodor maps in my books. I think for a lot of us, TSW in some ways replicates a part of that experience, and hopefully WOS can be that too.

 

Definitely! I think of it as a way for a kid who doesn't have the space for a big train set to "play with trains." It opens up the world of railfanning to the kids who live in an apartment or where parents don't want train sets laying around. Even for adults it's a big draw I'm sure. I would not invest in a real life train set, but TSW fits in nicely.

Now as for "building" a train set, that's not something TSW allows, but there are other games that do allow that sort of thing but it's the same idea. Doing what you don't have space for in real life expands the opportunities for kids (and adults)

 

That sounds like a made up story. Were these ‘kids’ just you?

 

You may be surprised to learn that in spite of my choice not to have kids of my own, my tolerance for my friends' children making noise and mess around me is in fact marginally higher than my tolerance for the Thomas on the WSR DLC's controls.

 

One thing I am impressed with especially as a PS5 Pro user is the added PS5 Pro Enhanced support. It really takes the graphics fidelity up a notch. I really hope they include this feature for TSW7. If they took it a step further and added PSSR support I might faint.

 

Thought this the best place to pose a couple of questions…

1. Can you save a run in progress?

And, 2. If the answer is yes, can you chain runs without the issues TSW has with the objective data etc vanishing when you load into a subsequent trip.

 

Nope, they've gone one better than TSW with its single save slot and just removed the feature altogether

JB

 

Can confirm the above, no save system to speak of, which frankly feels a bit absurd when the locals in the game are still nearly a hour long, and there's plenty of 30 minute runs also all over the place. And I feel like TSW regulars underestimate how much of a commitment even 30 minutes is, very few games I play require you to commit that much between saves. Scenarios at least still give you checkpoints if you fail, but I don't think there's a way to continue from them, and I don't believe timetable runs have them at all.

On chaining services together (for what it's worth), you can still do it, and it's very similar to TSW, select free roam, starts next service if ready, or gives you a wait time. Can go around and explore the route for other services with trains that are delayed due to you being slow and what not.

Also just like TSW timetable can very much break if you keep playing long enough, I noticed after finishing a round trip with Gordon that Thomas & Percy ended up being stuck on the branch. Didn't impact my service, and I was gonna quit anyways after that run, so it was fine that time. But nonetheless I was kind of surprised to see that given in theory such few trains this time around really should've made testing this easier than typical TSW add-ons.

 

Thanks for the confirmation. No save game = no purchase from me - DTG Jamie DTG Alex care to offer any explanation or whether this feature will be added in future?

 

Have DTG decided that the best way to stop us banging on about save slots is just to remove the save function as a whole?

Or is it the save game can't be broken if it's not in the game?

 

Unironically they tried doing that before, only reason we still have saving now is because people got rightfully mad when DTG was going to pull it during TSW3 I believe. And even then it was turned off by default and had to be re-enabled, honestly I'm not even sure if newer versions even changed that.

 

I genuinely can't tell because I migrate all my settings to every new version.

Which reminds me, will WOS accept a TSW engine.ini?

 

On a related note, Matt's claim before the game released that there had been a lot of core changes seems highly dubious...

 

I dunno about that, but it accepts the .PAK files. You can spawn them... with issues.
Spawn definitely (outside from a couple like the 171 that crash the game)
MOST TSW locos work... more or less as long as you don't go to external view and don't use keybinds.
Well some work (like headlights and horns) but anything involving the throttle and brakes are wonky because it's a different setup.
If you go external view you might lose the ability to interact with the controls.

 

While I’d like a save feature (and skipping cut scenes when replaying missions) it’s not a reason not to buy this game!

 

Now you mention it I do actually remember that now! Wow that's a throwback!

This does seem very dubious. Especially now people are copying their TSW Locos into the game. From what I've seen it does seem like WOS is TSW in a different skin? But equally I don't think I mind that!

 

In some ways it's a shame this wasn't released on two levels, both as the standalone game edition and as a route pack for those of us who already own TSW. That would have got round the save game issue (possibly).