First off, let me start by saying I love having licensed content in the sim, it makes the experience much more immersive and I prefer it over unlicensed content. However, there is a line that needs to be set. I'd rather have unlicensed routes over not having certain routes at all. I understand players from the big 3 (US/UK/DE) wanting to have licensed routes (I want them too!), but you guys really don't know how easy you have it and how lucky you are, you at least have routes at all. What do I mean by all this? Well, I'm from Spain and despite my country having Europe's largest HSR network and 2nd being in the world, just after China, along with one of the best commuter services and a wide variety of interesting rolling stock (including japanese-made locos!), it still has zero representation in Train Sim World and has continued to be neglected. Why? Well we don't know for certain but it's more than likely because the national operator (Renfe) doesn't want to work with Dovetail. Think about it, Dovetail loves making european routes, why would one of the most prominent countries in Europe in terms of railways not have any representation? This (licensing) is almost certainly the issue. I want to clarify this is not just an issue with this country (I talk about Spain because this is what I know best), but also Italy, France, Portugal, Poland, Japan, China, South Korea... All of these countries deserve routes because they have a really popular and iconic railways. Instead, we always get the same 3 countries 99% of the time and, unless you're from there, it gets boring really fast. I can already hear the argument "the market in those countries isn't big enough to support making these routes!". IT IS, people from those countries don't buy because Dovetail doesn't cater to them at all. Believe me, the railfan community in Spain is massive, I would know (hell, we all know Japan has a massive train and railfan culture aswell!). Dovetail just needs to cater to other countries and they'll 100% find the market and become THE TRAIN SIMULATOR. I understand creating new signaling systems (like ASFA) and catenary from scratch is expensive compared to recycling German assets, but this would definitely be worthwhile. All of this to say, I (and I'm sure people from these countries would agree) rather have unlicensed routes (similar to WCML) from all over the world, than have none at all and having to play routes from the same 3 countries my whole life. Especially because there'll be mods day one that include all the logos anyway (on PC at least). We all love trains, and railfans from other countries deserve love too! Here is some of the content you are missing out on because you don't want to have unlicensed content:
Agreed, I would rather have unbranded content than not having it at all I think the Tadami line is going to be unbranded, and it would be nice to see more routes doing that Personally I would like to see some Nordic, Italian and Eurostar routes
DTG (Matt P) have actually stated there are no licensing issues with SNCF, they just don’t seem uninterested in doing a French route. The ones with a definite issue are SBB (Switzerland), New York Subway though in that case it’s more a case of research access and depiction of train operating systems that are taboo. Some US freight operators such as Gennesee and Wyoming have said “No”. Spain is an unknown quantity, we don’t know if DTG have approached RENFE or any other operator, or whether they don’t feel a Spanish route would sell in sufficient quantity. Releasing unbranded items might work in some cases, but where a rail company or operator is aggressively opposed to being depicted in a sim (as Union Pacific were a few years ago, until wiser heads prevailed), they might still issue a cease and desist if their operations, routes or branding is barely concealed. That risks getting DTG in bad standing with the rail industry in general, which they would not entertain.
If Renfe aren't willing to give their license to DTG, it sounds like they are uninterested in supporting DTG when they need to collect source material.
You dont need licensing for the scenery its the branding and rolling stock branding (and possible rolling stock manufacturer) that require the license so they could make railway lines to the hearts content.. Furthermore you can release branding as a freeware pack to your payware train or station etc, many copyright rules allow freeware use of a name, but I believe that Playstation (and possibly xbox) may block these due to their restrictions making these workarounds difficult... thats why on the PC side modders are able to do this where a branding has been left off, point in case FGW branding on the new remaster and people like AP and ATS have freeware branding patches for TSC
unbranded dlc is an interesting one because there’s so many different preferences people will have. i draw the line at what rivet did for their 484; i'm fine with missing logos and liveries that are still the same in terms of shapes and colour, but when the liveries become fictional like the 484 that’s not good enough
That may be so, but I get the impression DTG are very cautious about going down even that road. Otherwise by now we might well have seen the Gotthard line but transformed into a German setting with DB rolling stock.
I don't think it's just licensing that stops routes being made, you also need to have access to locos and rolling stock, then you also have to take into account, laws in different countries that's class infrastructure as national assets (i.e. protected from photography and such like government institutes and mil bases, to name a few) you can also put in terrorist activities there too (as in using said route to plan ops) remember Microsoft flight sim purposely didn't include damage modelling into there sim because of 9/11 even tho the code for it existed (i cant remember where it was from but i think it was an article in PC Gamer mag decades ago) so to boil it down to just a licensing problem seems to be to narrow in scope, not even counting it could also just be the case of said companies are asking for too much money, and it simply isn't worth DTGs time and effort based on likely returns.
Slightly OT but I remember flying over where Chernobyl and Pripyat should be in FS 2020 and the area was just a blank texture.
Where it can get frustrating is when they have the branding rights and don't use them on existing rolling stock in game... We have 158s yet they don't use them on the riviera line in GWR...or at least paint them in GWR colours and leave the branding off.. its like they pick and choose which DLC they do this for, point in case the new remaster it has unbranded 387 gwr livery, FGW HSTs, unbranded 350s as Heathrow connects so why couldn't we get GWR/or unbranded 158s they have the rolling stock already in game..imo its just laziness!
Not only that, but even if an operator is willing and legally able to give DTG or other devs the access they need, they may not be able to manage taking a loco or set out of service for surveys, measurements and recording. The locos and brand representation we get are each the result of a lot of different factors outside a dev's control coming together in the right way and it also has to get past internal approval to get the time, staff and budget. In many ways it's impressive that we have as much as we do. Back to the OP's point, I definitely prefer unbranded to not at all.
There also needs to be 3rd parties to create other countries. Dtg aren't masters in every single railway system in the world. They need 3rd parties who are natives in the region
The 158 isn't a DTG product, it's a Skyhook games product. DTG won't make changes to 3rd party stock. It would be Skyhook games who would decide whether or not to release another branded version of their 158 like they did with the Scotrail one. As for the FGW units being unbranded, that's because of the licencing. DTG have been allowed to use the colour but not the logo or livery (wavy lines).
One major disappointment is DTG's failure to take advantage of the good relationship they have with Amtrak. All we have to show for that license is a few trains on the NEC. There could be so much more.
Yes indeed. Viewliners, Superliners, their version of the F40, the Genesis locos etc. Yes some would only see once a day usage on the routes but a long distance pack with timetable layers for the various routes and maybe a few scenarios would still sell well.
I'd imagine right now they might be able to get a deal like this for peanuts, since the operator can do with all the positive PR possible, and it should be relatively easy to pitch a simulator which shows how safe their rolling stock and track is, and in which you'll never see a derailment...
The 158 isn't theirs to just reskin and throw into a route, they'd have to ask Skyhook and probably would have to pay them something to avoid profiting from their work. Also, the 158 really isn't worth the effort on Riviera given it's only appearance there is a daily Axminster - Barnstaple and a couple of Cardiff - Plymouth / Penzances.
It's been said before, and bears repeating, but the "World" in Train Sim World applies not to the locales, but to the world outside of the trains that is available to explore on foot. This was always DTG's admittedly somewhat misleading intention with the title.
Without a license, DTG will not have access to the trains, so no sound recordings from the cab for example. Do we get some generic sounds or totally incorrect sounds, like what they did with Talent 1 (using sounds of the Talent 2)? But I agree, not having licenses is holding back the game. You see it already with German routes, almost only DB red and no other operators, so routes in the current day are not really realistic. I have no problem with trains without logo, even the 484 on Island Line 2022 is acceptable for me. We now have the GWE remaster, the D78 Stock is incorrect because it's the refurbished one from Island Line, the 1972 stock is not correct for the route, the 360 is replaced by a 350, so also incorrect, but people seems to love it. Also the 1st GW trains are without logo and design and the the 165 is just a 166 without changes. Personally I don't like the usage of incorrect trains, for me this is more worse then using trains without logo. But I also hate the fact of the BR642 with Westfrankenbahn logo, is used on several other routes and totally out of place on them. Was it really to hard to make a livery without the Westfrankenbahn logo? Also the use of this train on Koln - Aachen is incorrect, as there runs the Talent 1 diesel IRL.
Yes as much as I love what Liam has done with GWE, he should have had some support from the top at the least in terms of getting a 165 in there even if sold separately as a low(ish) cost DLC. They could have got a 3D modeller to restore the 484 to something more resembling the D78 stock, particularly the front end where you really notice the blanked off centre door and window (more so than the 350 masquerading as a 360). This is why, for UK at least setting routes pre privatisation i.e. BR era would avoid any licensing issues they get with current TOC's and FOC's to offer a more accurate and complete experience.
I dont agree with this as uncooperative companies also restrict access to tracks, stations, sound acquisition, access to train cabs etc. Its a lot more than just licencing I'd say.
As a layer i think unbranded is fine. But with the the main traction, its awful when it's not branded.
I also really appreciate what Liam has done and he did the best what he could do with the stuff directly available. What he has done makes the route really full of life/trains, however as the perfectionist I'am, for me there still is something to complain. A paid DLC for 15 EURO or so, with the correct trains, is better in my opinion. Also a Talent 1 DLC for SKA was a perfect opportunity with the release of the new timetable. However I also can understand other, less perfectionist people, being happy with everything free and less realistic.
Well, I love to see a modern German route, with other then DB stuff. When a license is not possible, I can accept it, when they are unbranded, as long as it's not a totally fictional livery. The upcoming Czech route has also unbranded trains and I'm still interested in it.
To add to this Matt said that the reason they haven't gone outside the NEC is that the timetables would be too quiet. Not that I would mind it would probably guarantee no blurry textures.
Skyhooks EMT 158 in the Riviera TT as movements around Exeter yards? they obviously let them use it for the TT...Maybe as mentioned skyhook may have blocked a reskin but despite the small service it still adds to ones immersion, I feel it could have been done.. I really need to learn how to create TT!
You need to own Midland Mainline by Skyhook for that layer to show up. What you are asking DTG to do is take someone else's model, modify it and redistribute it. They need Skyhook's permission. If Skyhook denies them that, then tough luck.
The EMT 158 being used to represent an SWR one is fine, it doesn't change the train. An EMT 158 doubling as a GWR one would be awfully unrealistic - and that would be down to Skyhook to allow a change, which they may not. Especially if Dovetail planned to include it in the route, therefore selling it; which goes back to my previous point. Regardless, not having the GWR 158 really isn't a big loss, anyway. For any routes in/around Bristol I'd like to see it revisited but that's a story for another day.
As far as licences from SBB are concerned, they seem to have been relaxed somewhat. A young Swiss 3D model builder has modelled two new SBB trains, and since SBB is known to cause problems with licences, he wasn't sure whether he would be allowed to put these two trains up for sale. But then things moved relatively quickly and these two new SBB trains were released for the TSC. One of them was the SBB train RABe 512 ‘IR Dosto’, which you can see here. Even the driver's cabs have been completely modelled and, as far as I know, have all the functions. https://www.simtrain.ch/pi/Add-ons-TS2014-TS2022/Schweiz1/rabe-512-ir-dosto.html The second SBB train was the RBDe 560 DOMINO, which is also by the same 3D designer. You can see it here. Even the driver's cabs are fully modelled and, to my knowledge, have all the functions. https://www.trainsimulator.ch/de/sbb-rbde-560-domino.html So I assume that the SBB has relaxed its guidelines again, and that it would probably even be possible to build a complete SBB route and the trains to go with it.
