Expert Db Br 145 Discussion

No, the voltage change is on the open line between Bad Schandau and Děčín. That means you always need a multi-system loco to go across the border. But if you then have a long distance to go within Germany, you might not want to "waste" a multi-system loco on that. Or you have a CZ/DE capable loco, but you then need to change to a DE/NL one. You could do those changes at Bad Schandau, right near the border, or at Pirna Gbf, but Dresden-Friedrichstadt is a larger, less busy station and it's a better location for the drivers to start and end their shifts as well. That means that loco changes at Friedrichstadt are very common.

Yes, exactly, that's my point! The 145 can't do that, so we'll get some loco changes at Friedrichstadt, which is much more interesting than just taking over a complete train at Hbf.

 

It's possible that what you played was actually a TRAXX . Zusi really shouldn't be used as a gauge for realism (other than perhaps safety and signal systems). I just looked up a Zusi cab ride of the BR145 on youtube and the only thing I could find was TRAXX locos with MFD (the BR145 has an analog MFA indicator panel that looks like the one from the BR423/BR425), or in one video it had the BR101 cab. Complete nonsense.

With all that said, the BR145 is sort of a middle point between the BR101 and the TRAXX, so I can definitely understand if you have a hard time to tell them apart. But operationally or in terms of technology they are quite different, and that is the focus of Expert locomotives. For general "train spotting gaming" there are standard DLC's.

The BR145 sounds closer to the BR101 than the TRAXX we have in game. The former both share the same traction converters (but the BR145 has different, less powerful traction motors). In terms of traction control, the BR145 is quite different from the BR101 however, since it can only control individual bogies (while the BR101 has control of each traction motor individually) so if you lose one traction motor you lose that bogie.

When it comes to brake control, the BR145 is yet again very different (and actually very different from the TRAXX as well, which went back to the BR101 way of doing things) with no pneumatic fall back and just two redundant brake computers. The BR101 only has one brake computer, but if it fails you have a traditional pneumatic brake valve that can be used. On the BR145 it acts more like how the central control computers (ZSG) behave on the 101, where one of the computers is always the master while the other is the slave. If the former fails the locomotive automatically changes master.

Actually, from the outside and in terms of sound the earliest TRAXX (BR146.0 and BR185.0) are basically just repainted BR145's, so in some sense the BR145 is even closer to the TRAXX than I made it seem above. The important thing to note is that the BR146.0 and BR185.0 have "glass cockpits" (MFD instead of an analog MFA), and the TRAXX we have in game are very much not these variants but the later 146.2/185.2 that replaced the locomotive body (with upgraded crash standards) and ripped out the old traction converters (it sounds quite different from the earlier variants).

What drives me when it comes to making Expert locomotives is to make the driving operations and the physics/systems realism as true to life as possible, of course it can be interesting to tackle a completely new locomotive, but it's not my main focus .

Based on the data I have (that was used to make the Dresden-Leipzig timetable), on the German side (i.e. the playable side) the BR145 outnumbers the BR189. Remember that the BR189 comes in different variants depending on supported countries, there are no BR189s that can drive in every country that a BR189 is certified, they all have a smaller subset of supported countries. For example you might have one that only is allowed to run in Germany, Austria and the Netherlands, or another that can only run in certain Eastern European countries and so on. So, while more BR189's were built than BR145's, the BR189s that can run in the Czech Republic are outnumbered by the BR145's.

However, I would love to make a BR189 Expert as well

 

Thanks for that. I have heard before (probably from Maik) that Zusi should not necessarily be used as a benchmark to judge the accuracy of German traction, whether sounds, physics or indeed cab appearance. So once again this is borne out and I will tread more carefully when cross checking. (Better not tell Carsten!) Anyhow you are convincing me the Expert 145 could well be worth a look when it releases!

 

If we’re getting a BR 189, how is the Chance for the 152 from Siemens as well?

 

We "are" not getting a 189, we "might" get a 189. At some point. Maybe.

 

I totally understand why devs are so reluctant to mention anything that's not 100% confirmed- people definitely hear what they want to hear lol!

Maybe, indeed! All he said was "he'd like to make" one and it instantly became promised to some folks- wild!

 

This all sounds super exciting, love the care and passion you and people around you put into those DLCs. And looks like I will be able to close down one of my old suggestion threads, with everything being implemented here

 

I've found an interesting video relating to the 145, showing the back wall, cab switches, and machine room. Despite being in German, I think it's a good watch!

 

If you had some spare time, is there any chance you could add manual Zg2 signs across the board? Some new TSG wagons have that.

Keeping the current automatic process, but just adding an interactive spot over them that would allow to override them to manual off and manual on. I hope that it could be just a little script that you can quickly copy everywhere, so the only touch needed for every wagon would be placing the interactive points.

It works so-so on its own, but especially when the loco drives from cab 2 or during shunting operations, the signs are all over the place not too close to reality.

 

Few questions for the 145 devs (cwf.green)
- Will the 145 have the same (or whatever is realistic) adhesion physics that the 101 has, or are we going to get something simplistic such as what most loco's in the game have?
- The 145 seems to have the same (or very close to) traction motor sounds as the 101. Should we expect new sounds that are authentic or are they going to be copy/paste?
- Is the engine room in the 145 new?

 

As for 2 as I'm the Sound-gal of the 145 Expert: It gets a full new soundset except for a small amount that are literally the same (panto rise as its the same type for example).
This is the "current" state of just the Traction Blowers as a lil technical prewiew. The traction cue is 4 times the size.

 

As Maddy answered the sound question I'll answer the other two questions:

1. The BR 145 Expert will come with the new adhesion physics which was added to the BR 101 Expert. The loco won't behave exactly the same though since it weighs slightly less and has a different wheel slip protection system (for example it can only control individual bogies while the BR 101 controls each of the four traction motors separately).

2. The BR 145 has a different machine room than the BR 101 in real life, with totally different circuit breakers (some may be similar of course but most are different since the BR 145 is more like a TRAXX loco(1) in that the ZSG(2) and ASG(3) are integrated into two modules, one per bogie rather than being separate as on the BR 101) and a different brake equipment panel (though it will certainly remind you of the BR 101's). Whether we have simulated that I'll leave for future announcements

(1) This is an oversimplification since the TRAXX locos actually take parts from both the BR 101 and the BR 145. One big difference on the BR 145 vs the TRAXX is that the BR 145 doesn't have the pneumatic indirect brake fall back, i.e. the el-pn switch, like the BR 101 (which the TRAXX do) but does instead have a fully controlled indirect brake. Rather than a pneumatic fall back mode it instead has two redundant brake computers (in a similar fashion to the redundant ZSG explained below). Part of the brake equipment preparation for the BR 145 is to test both of these computers.

(2)ZSG = "Zentralsteuergerät" or basically the central control computer. This is the brain stem of the locomotive that combines all inputs and data and then sends outputs to all the different systems. There are two ZSG for redundancy with one being the master and the other being slaved. If the master fails the locomotive automatically switches to the backup computer, if both fail the locomotive becomes inoperable.

(3)ASG = "Antriebssteuergerät", this is the computer that is responsible for traction and electric brake control, it is in turn controlled by the ZSG.

 

I wonder why the 4 traction motors are integrated into 2 (as if it's one per bogie). Does the 145 have significantly more reliable ASG's compared to the 101 (I get heaps of ASG faults on it myself), or is it just questionable engineering?

 

I think it's mainly a cost saving decision. The ASG's are not significantly more reliable on the BR 145 compared to the BR 101 (the traction power converters for example are very similar, same generation), but with double the number of ASG's on the BR 101 (assuming same failure rate) you'd get on average twice as many faults, and if the locomotive needs to be taken out of service for repairs whenever you get a failed ASG (not the same day but within a reasonably short timeframe) reducing the number of ASG's would mean higher reliability (somewhat paradoxically I guess).

 

I just wanted to say that I am really looking forward to the br145. I am having a lot of fun with the 101 and the gameplaypack.

This will be a day one purchase for me.

I hope that working on the br145 will eventually lead to a traxx1 and maybe even a traxx2 expert locomotive (as those to are my favourite locos IRL)

 

From the many freight services I've done on DLG, many freight runs have incorrect pathing such as wrong-way running (especially for freight services, such as GAG 47302 and many others). Will the pathings be altered and fixed with the Expert timetable?

 

Pathing has been quite significantly altered on a lot of the freight trains since these were mostly (about 90%) going via the new line. I don't have the numbers in front of me but maybe 40% are now going via the old line, and some of the new/old line trains are going via either Dresden-Neustadt Hbf or Dresden-Neustadt Gbf (very few though for the latter as per IRL).

 

Will the expert db br 101 add to db br 145 timetable for dresden-leipzig route? I know it is a hard work to make a timetable only for expert version and you can't replace the original version (by DTG), but this route requires a lot of IC services and it would be interesting to drive them with all the operetions the expert br 101 can offer you.

 

Yes they have confirmed that there will be 101 Expert services when the 145 Expert will release for Dresden Leipzig

 

Expert coupling looks cool

 

Anorher update on the roadmap!

Looks really promissing!

Question for the devs:
Are the latest screenshots representative for the release 3D modell/textures?

Or is there still work to be done on the exterior modell/textures?

 

DHL is also coming with the new br145

 

The "expertified" sggmrss are looking great too! And ya gotta love the RBH livery!

 

I am honestly not a fan of the way this is more and more going the way of having as much gimmicks as possible. I would rather have this focus on the driving physics and in-cab systems and be a $15 loco instead of becomming a $40 loco with tons of gimmicks that many probably don't care about

 

Furthermore, it would be better to find a standard model (in general).
For example, to avoid having locomotives without active suspension coupled to wagons or carriages that don't have these features.
Or vice versa.

 

The whole point of "Expert" locomotives is to have as many features as possible....of course you can turn off fault simulation though

 

The Passenger Version of the BR 145 will surely only use the standard Dostos. Therefore, I hope that it will also be available as a Substitute on other Routes without TSG needing a separate Update each time, as was the case with the BR101.

 

In this case its a seperate loco without coaches so the substitution is way different then how the 101 was designed (with coaches attached). So the 145 substitute like the 146 or 112 and you see every dosto have access to them. Its better and easier than the 101 Expert.

 

Thats the point. They add 100 different and complex faults but the loco gets very expensive. People who for example don't need this and don't need to remove ice from the front of the loco just can't justify paying this much for all the "nice to have" gimmicks. For $15 this would be a day one purchase. Maybe even for $20 but we all know it will be getting into $40 territory and I think this is just to much and the justification being all the added gimmicks just does not click with me.

I would rather have a "Expert light" quality as the standard quality and have a cheaper DLC. Would also probably save development time.

 

Well the exp 101 has clearly proven people do want these ‘gimmicks’. I suspect this level of product is also being developed for the love of it in the first place, I’m sure they would sell more of a cheaper, less simulated version - but I doubt that’s the point.

Also $15 is less than even a non expert stock pack these days, so to suggest this pack of all things should sell for that is just ridiculous.

I for one would much rather spend this sort of money on a product that has such ‘gimmicks’ as you put it, rather than spending that money on content which is the same price but full of actual gimmicks like the other 95% of content which is designed for casual users.

It never fails to amaze me when people come to these topics to complain about content that is so rare in TSW, especially when the vast majority of content that exists, is exactly what you want this to be.

 

I am pretty happy it has all those details and am definately willing to pay the price TSG wants for it. I am even more happy that there is a dev who is willing to push the boundaries of what TSW is capable of, that there is a push for more realism and that it goes beyond what the BR101 Expert has already delivered!

Having said that, I also think its absolutely understandable that people who are not into that sort of thing are not willing to pay this price if they are not intending in ever using those features. However, I am pretty sure the business model only works when there is only one "Expert" product and not a "light" product next to it. After all, the product needs to be finacially viable...

 

I'm glad this pack focuses on intermodal cargo, as it is the most common cargo on most mainlines. I'm very much looking forward to this pack and how the expert features will play out.

 

There is a middle ground between casual locos with bad system simulation and a expert loco full of dozens of gimmicks. I just think the middle ground would be more interesting.

 

Yeah the selling numbers tells something different. The 101 Expert had an extremely good selling amount

 

I bought the BR101 expert quite a while ago, but I was afraid to play it because of the difficulty that seemed too high to me. It turns out there's nothing complicated at all. Yes, I don't enable fault simulation. Does this add-on mean anything to me if I don't use it? I don't regret spending the money at all. I'm simply enjoying a beautifully crafted product with tons of features and excellent sound. Will I be able to use all the features of the BR145 Expert? Probably not, but it will definitely justify all the money spent.

 

There are some features on the BR 145 Expert that have to do with both train setup (calculating train data) and fault troubleshooting that I think will be interesting to you

 

This is a useful feature. Currently, I have to use a third-party program to get information about train cars. This will greatly simplify calculations for console players.

But they can be turned off, right? Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your work in this area, but I'll be able to control them myself and turn them off if necessary, right?

And one more question: the gameplay package had a separate timetable for the Kassel Würzburg route. Will there also be a separate timetable for the Dresden-Leipzig route with another year, or will the BR145 and BR101 be used as replacements for the standard timetable?

 

The 145 will include automatic translation to english of the train console. You will be able to read what is wrong and the steps to fix it without needing to go to the manual or google translator. The difficulty level for someone that does not speak german will go down significantly. If this is your case, you might enjoy having faults on in this one.

Also keep in mind that the Expert 101 already has a "fix everything that is broken" button in the same screen where you turn on/off failures.

 

Unfortunately, both of these languages are not my native languages, but English is certainly much clearer to me without a translator than German.

In fact, I rarely use the malfunction mode. Only when I have a lot of time to play. But it was mentioned that there would be malfunctions in the train's brake system.I would like to know if they will happen while the train is moving or will they be visible already at the start, when I simply release the train’s brakes?

 

The malfunctions can be disabled as with the BR 101 Expert, nothing has changed in that regard (without Expert Mode the malfunctions are off by default and with Expert mode they are on by default, but in either case you can change this setting on the EBuLa "Sim Control" page - St key).

All screens are in German by default but you can press and hold the unlettered key on the MTD screen to flip between German and English. It is not automatic, and it is only there if you want it.

As for freight train malfunctions, these again require malfunctions to be enabled (so same logic as the loco faults). Their triggering conditions are different for different malfunctions. For example, on certain types of services you will need to perform a brake test to ensure that the formation has been set up correctly, this means checking that angle cocks are open, that brakes actually apply and release at the rear and so on. You won't suddenly have an angle LOVE closing by itself while running, they are intended to simulate what can realistically happen.

Some other malfunctions like stuck brakes (which can overheat the brakes) are more dynamic and can happen while running (as IRL), especially if you drive poorly and "fan the brake". This last part (the "poor driving" effect, not the random malfunction aspect) is the only thing that can trigger even with Expert Mode disabled, that is part of the actual Simugraph setup of the wagons (a bit like the battery being able to run out on the coaches for the 101 Expert).

Edit: I almost forgot. The other driving aid I mentioned is actually fully realistic and would be available to drivers in real life (though more and more it is digital) and that is the wagon list and brake sheet papers. The wagon list is a manifest of all the wagons in the train (which includes non driving locomotives), their wagon numbers, empty/loaded axles, weights, braked weights and so on.

The brake sheet (called "Bremszettel" in German) is a document of the important data that the driver needs. It includes train length, train weight, the braked weight percentage, whether any vehicles have lower speed limits than the timetable speed, whether any dangerous goods are carried etc (it has 32 rows so I can't write out everything here). That sheet can actually be used to get the train data that you then input into the computer for PZB, LZB and AFB. Note though that you still need to convert the "Brh im zug" to "BRH" with the conversion table (fortunately still placed on the rear wall).

 

Thanks, but I don't think I'll do that for aesthetic reasons. Only if I can switch languages in real life.

Now that's interesting. It's these kinds of quirks that I appreciate your work for.

Does this mean that there will be no train data tips in the service description, as in the package for the Kassel-Würzburg route? And another question or even a wish: Is it possible to make this calculator as a separate table so that I can open it from my phone and do calculations there? Of course, I appreciate the details you implement, but let's imagine this situation: I'm launching some service after a hard day at work. I'm sitting on the couch in front of the TV, 4 meters away. The small print will be barely legible, and I'll have to run back and forth to the TV to look and read the data. Why not create a spreadsheet that I can open on my phone in pause mode and do the necessary calculations? Or collaborate with Noir, who already has a universal spreadsheet? A small thing, but a very nice one. It'll be great for both hardcore players and lazy ones like me.

 

Oh boy, there will be a lot of people sad from finding out how bad is their usual driving style

The report William gives you contains the results of the calculation, not anything you would need to calculate by yourself. You only need to deal with the input in mine, because it is not connected to the game in any way and I need to get the data from you somehow. If you are using the new calculator from me, the result is somewhat formatted after the Bremszettel as well, so it should be familiar to people.

I've translated the big Bremszettel in the past so you can have an idea what it will look like (been some time, I'm not sure if it's 1:1 correct translation):

 

I can imagine the manual will be gigantic for this release, something around 200-250 pages (even more!!), so should we expect the manual to release 3 days before the loco releases (like the 101), or closer to a week? Personally, the more reading time, the better.

 

Then that changes everything. Thanks for the clarification.