Dtg, Are These The New Route Prices: £32.99/€39.99/€44.99?

Yes, a Big Mac Meal is actually one of the few things that has defied inflation here. When I moved to Zurich in 2009 my boss, asked me to send him prices of things so he could work out a meal allowance. I still have the email. A Big Mac Meal was 12.85 chf. Today a bargain at only 15chf - though you won't catch me eating there!

 

For the UK, I would rather go to Wetherspoons and have a meal than MacDonalds. At least the price includes a pint of beer and while the menu isn’t great, there’s some good British staples on there - fish and chips, steak and kidney (suet) pudding, sausages and mashed potatoes.

 

Now you're making me homesick.

 

Hi Es4t, I certainly have heard the phrase. However do you not find it wrong to generalise in the manner that was done? If it was aimed at one specific ambassador, and there was evidence to back the particular claim, then I'd have no foot to stand on. I have been incredibly critical of DTG and their products where I deemed necessary for as long as I've been regularly streaming, to the point where I was certain I would never be approached to be an ambassador because of it. Since I became one, I have not dialed down that criticism. My streams dating back to TSW 2 are all on YouTube, in their hundreds, and if anybody can find me just one instance of the claim that was made, I will apologise for ever pushing back on trainsimuser 's statement. I can assure you other ambassadors are also critical, however of course I cannot share anything private publicly so for now I'll just stick to talking for myself with my entire YouTube livestream history being my evidence.

 

Ok so let’s go through your post then.

1. where did I name any ambassador you say you have evidence show it if you are going to make such claims. I shall await your apology you say will be giving when you realise you are wrong here. Or will you just go silent after making wrong claims and walk away with your tail between your legs.

2. so you are an ambassador that says it all then. So you HAD BEEN critical of DTG so much so you didn’t think you would be an ambassador. So now you are thst criticism has stopped then I take it.

3. You summed my point up perfectly.

 

you mustn't have read his post at all. Shows your ignorance. He literally stated he has not dialed down any criticism and I have seen quite a few ambassadors who do still criticize DTG

 

please use better English, some of your sentences are a bit incomprehensible

 

Re-read what I wrote, slowly, it may help you understand it.

 

Well see that's the funny thing, I didn't make that claim.

 

At this point this has to be rage bait. Have a good evening young sir.

 

Dude seriously, we've had our run in's on these forums, and you like hitting that report button way quicker than you probably should be. You need to step back from things, and re-read what you're saying, your messages are confrontational on occassions, and I've said it before, you attempt to rage bait people. Just seriously calm it down.

 

When someone says I said something then they can back it up. Sorry if me defending myself with someone making false claims is wrong but I won’t have someone sitting there making stuff up. Just the same as you wouldn’t and anyone else wouldn’t.

 

I get that, I really really do, but take it to a PM between yourselves and be the bigger person in the public forum.

 

Weatherspoons have some amazing offers on food and drink. Can’t beat curry night

 

Not really, the majority of ambassadors are following a script. A script where they keep their negative opinions to themselves, otherwise it’s good bye freebies.

 

I’m addicted to the wings in spoons. 3x5 wings for £7.49 and couple of pints goes down well

 

How do you know this?

 

You’re an ambassador and you’ve never said one word bad against DTG have you?

 

I've criticised them plenty. Where do we now go from here?

 

Ok so just for context i have just looked up your channel on youtube had never heard of you before not going to lie. i clicked 4 random videos you have uploaded recently and in not one of them are you even talking or saying a single word it is just you sitting driving with no mic etc. Nothing wrong with that if that's how you stream or upload content.

I then scroll further down your list see you talking about the 805 dlc pack announcement reading the article. You get to the point about the price and "its not bad at all" lets keep in mind though you get it for free WE the users PAY. Would your opinions be the same if you had to pay for content. what is your voice on the subject of this thread about the price of the new york route that got release recently. Would you be happy paying full price for that genuine question and not an argument.

 

I thought you had ignored me? Interesting. I specifically mentioned my streams to you earlier. The vast majority of my videos are simple driving videos and scenarios where I don't speak, my streams are where you'll catch me talking plenty.

Not sure what the correlation is between me saying the 805 DLC wasn't priced badly and me getting the content for free. My opinion on the Stamford pricing is that it's priced way too high for what we get. The timetable is great no doubt, but there's just not that much else going on in all honesty. The scenery's nice especially around New York, and I've always liked the transition from city to suburbs, I especially liked it in the Boston - Worcester route. However none of it warrants the price tag. The matter of cost is subjective, but if I absolutely had to advise if I was making a video on it, I would say wait for a deep sale. But ofc that's my opinion and nothing more. To answer your final question, I wouldn't be happy paying that for the route at all, no.

Also, I'd like to believe my opinions would be the same on the matter of cost & pricing, whether I was getting the product for free or not. Before forming those opinions, I tend to sit still for a while and put myself in the shoes of not being an Ambassador, putting my financial situation into perspective and the general cost of living etc.

 

So why dont do you a video then mentioning you think it is priced to high. You have 5 videos uploaded of you playing the scenarios so why dont you tell your viewers your honest opinion and do a live video upload of your opinion on the price being to high and put that across to people. isnt that the point of an ambassador to show the public YOUR opinion and YOUR views. IF you feel it is to high why has no video appeared of you stating that yet the 805 is priced ok you uploaded a video stating that which could be classed as praise. Again not an argument just genuine question

 

To be honest I tend to stay out of these sorts of discussions since there’s an irrefutable bias on the part of getting something for free, no point in trying to argue otherwise.

I do agree though that (if these things are being said) you can’t really comment on a cost being good when you don’t have to pay it. Obviously comparing the cost against another similar product is another thing though.

 

‘I’d like to believe my opinions would be the same’ aren’t the same as ‘I do believe’. Faced with a choice of spending £33 on frivolous dlc or putting that cash towards food costs or other living expenses really focuses people’s minds on what matters. No-one ever really values anything they get for free.
I’m not au fait with your YT channel and never will be as I go out of my way to swerve all streamers that get free TSW content as I’d much rather watch a stream from someone that has spent their hard earned cash and support their channel.

 

I'm not obliged to make such a video, as a matter of fact I'm not obliged to make any piece of content. In this particular situation, I simply didn't have the time to make such a video. My thinking is of such that if the video doesnt get recorded/edited/uploaded before the public release, then there isn't much point as people have already rushed to buy. This is flawed thinking though as realistically it could still benefit someone who hasn't made a purchase yet, even way after release day, that's an improvement I could make. I mentioned my thoughts on the Stamford pricing multiple times on my streams. I didn't note down of course exactly when and on exactly what stream, but if you do some digging you'll find your treasure.

Yeah that's a completely valid opinion to be fair.

Once again that's a completely valid opinion. I stated "I'd like to believe" as the reality is simply that I don't know. And I will never know unless I'm in that position and that position only, which would be in a parallel universe. No matter how sure I say I am, I just can't say I *know* that I would feel the same or make the same decision. Out of curiosity, do you not think there's room for flaw in also watching people who have spent money? For example I'd think there would be a stark difference in a millionaire's opinion who's bought DLC and someone who's living paycheck to paycheck who's bought that same piece of content.

 

I think DTG think we are all millionaires anyway giving the prices of some content

 

One thing I've been saying for years on my streams is that the reason things happen as they do, be it high pricing, slow bug fixing, seemingly rushed releases etc, is simply because it works from a business perspective. We can complain all we like, but as far as I'm aware, and I'm happy to be corrected on this, is that the game's generated more profit annually. Now even if that information is false, and it could be as I don't have evidence myself of it, the proof it works is simply in the fact that many things haven't changed for years. And what makes it work for them is us the players. Not all of us are buying DLC at full price (and before I'm called out yes some of us don't pay at all), but enough of us are, and enough of us are still sinking hours into the game. The saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind. Ultimately, I believe if most of us was in a position where running a business a particular way was generating more and more income, we'd be less and less inclined to change how we're running it.

 

There maybe ‘room for flaw’ in watching people that spent money but in my opinion someone that has spent hard-earned is much more likely to be critical and honest in their opinion.
Your millionaire’s comparison is a poor example really…if one has a huge amount of disposable income every week then ‘losing’ £33 isn’t going to worry them whereas if one only has £40 every month to spend on a piece of dlc they’re going to be a lot more critical. Choices need to be made wisely.
It’s also slightly worrying to me the number of ‘ambassadors’ DTG need. If the software was half decent and less buggy the game would sell itself. Surely, there’s a correlation there….poorer the the game more brand promoters needed to push it out.
If I don’t think there’s value in a dlc then I don't buy it. Anyway, that’s the final word from me on the pricing as per the thread title.

 

This was the exact point I was making and where I suggested there may be a flaw, perhaps I didn't word it well.

 

"Value" is so subjective that it's hard to make personal comparisons meaningful. You can only discuss rough guidelines such as "it's this many kilometers of track, this many stations, this many locos attached" but even then it falls short of truly measuring "value" because there are plenty of things I don't personally care for that don't "value" at all, but others might value a LOT. Then there's the also very personal issue of what you like or don't like. Some people like a certain style of artwork, or lighting. Some people are concerned most about sounds, or visuals, or "details" like even if the doors on non-working toilets or engine rooms open. Others don't care and it has no effect on their judgement of how "good" a route is.

In the end, I don't think what you get is a price set by "value of the route" per se in game terms.
What you are getting is a rough estimation of what people need to charge to make their money back based on how many they can sell versus what time they spent making it.

Example: If it costs me $200,000 to make a route and I think it will sell 5,000 copies...I need to sell it at $40 to break even. At $45 I make a 10% profit to start making the next DLC.

There's a certain level at which you can't go under or you can't pay employees and keep making routes.
That's the low level. That's the least you can charge.

The high level is what the community will pay, above which you sell little to no copies and lose money too. That's the most you can charge.

In between those two numbers is where you can "adjust" your figures, but that's all the space you really have.

If you charge too little, you sell a lot but don't make much per sale so lose money.

If you charge too much, you make more but sell less, losing money.

Only in the middle of moderate sales and moderate cost do you make the most money.

It's a "bell curve."


If you go outside the "value window" then you don't make enough money to stay in business.

The exact details may differ slightly (exactly how big a route is, how many hours it takes, how big your team is, how many people would like it) However, it's not THAT much different from DLC to DLC and studio to studio. There are general industry guidelines.

That's why you tend to see the same similar price range over and over.
It's not because someone is arbitrarily setting prices for no reason.
DTG isn't even setting the prices for the third parties, they're setting their own and they all happen to fall in the same general window.

(or "windows" plural really since different types of DLCs are quite different...routes vs locos, etc)

Locos are around $17 because that's roughly where they are most profitable.
Detailed routes seem to be around $40-$45.
"Expert" locos around $40
Shorter and older routes around $30.
REALLY older ones like Oakville and WSR maybe even lower around $25, but they made money YEARS ago so don't need to make much. At this point most people have bought them and you're almost giving them away to new players to get them to spend on newer related products (like Thomas DLC running on the WSR)

The further you get from the "ideal price point" either way you start losing money.

They're similar prices because the cost to make is similar because the products are similar.

If you had routes TWICE as long for example, they'd likely be about TWICE as much to make because they'd take TWICE as long.

There are some exceptions to the rule of course (the Santa Fe pack has two locos, but they aren't new builds, so they don't fit the mold of one scratch built loco) but the exceptions basically prove the rule.

Now one important caveat:
This isn't saying each DLC is equally GOOD.
Not in quality or value to customer.
As I said, value depends on customer, and more people (in general) may be interested in some locos or routes than others.
Some teams also simply aren't as good at programming or time management than others.
Humans are human.

So some DLC may be worth more or less to YOU as an individual.
Time however still went into making many of these DLCs, even the ones that turned out bad.
The mediocre and bad devs also want to get paid, just like the worst bus driver or worst teacher still expects a paycheck at the end of the week. It's STILL up to YOU to decide what something is worth to YOU as the consumer.

What you don't decide is how much effort or time they put into the product. "Should" it be $10 cheaper? Well I'm sure YOU think so... but the person who made it also thinks they "should" get paid for their time.

Then we run up against the hard truth. If you don't like it... don't buy it.
Or buy it on sale.
If you can wait a year to buy it...that sends a message to the developers that it was too much.
If you can't wait a year and still buy it.... that sends a message that it's worth it since you DID pay it.
Those are choices you can make that then weed out the "bad" devs over time.
If they don't make money they go broke and go do something else that doesn't involve TSW DLCs.

Simply saying "stuff is expensive" over and over doesn't really accomplish anything.

 

^^^^^^^^^^

 

I finally got round to checking out your channel. From all the videos I watched, the only time you did speak out was during the tfw 142 release, which I applaud you for.
After that though it’s just gameplay videos and no commentary. Why is that?

 

Because that's my style of content creation. I struggle with creativity sometimes and it affects how informative or engaging those videos would be. The bulk of my content are streams however, where you'll find me talking much more. I prefer streams as I can bounce off chat and that helps with the waffling, and so I put more energy into those than videos. There are a good handful of videos where I speak, but you would have to dig a little bit. A clue is usually the title and thumbnail, if you compare to my more usual type of video. I plan to do one for at least MVL, not completely certain on the class 90 yet.

 

I don't think not talking is necessarily a bad thing, some people may prefer that. Whilst normally I like to hear someone talking, there's been times when I've specifically looked for non-commentary videos of games so I can properly see if a game interests me enough to play

 

That was my favourite style of content when I was younger. My city car driving videos from years ago were the same style because I enjoyed those exact videos on that game at one point in my life.

 

Okay, that’s cool man. I won’t quiz you anymore about it as I don’t want to come across aggressive or anything. I still stand by what I said though about ambassadors not speaking out on negative aspects. Maybe you’re different to them then, which is a good thing.

Oh nice, I’ll be sure to check out your MVL review as I have high expectations on this route and I’m really looking forward to it

 

A Big Mac in Altstetten where I lived today is 15 francs for the burger alone. I did say Big Mac Meal in my original post which includes fries and a drink, making it around 20 francs. I was there in lockdown, so maybe prices peaked then.

 

I've only really seen two Ambassadors' content, British Ace and Dad Rail, both of whom criticise where they think criticism is due. So purely from personal experience, I disagree.

 

Thank you for the consideration but you're welcome to ask me as many questions as you'd like. If there's something I can't speak about for whatever reason, I'll say it but otherwise I'm an open book!

 

I remember how the Big Mac became a "Small Guy" some time ago when inflation was again a concern (here in France).
And now the price for that miserable little thing is picking up again.

 

The Cardiff route is a perfect example of the shrink. Feel like a caged tiger whenever I play that route. Needs some sort of extension to warrant the price.

 

Cardiff is a prime example where DTG should have specifically offered as an early access/proof of concept but, “Don’t worry folks, more to follow but thanks for having faith in Stage One.” But sadly, it now seems destined to linger in our digital storage and can’t be removed to free up HD space as it’s needed for the 150 and 153 layers on other routes.

 

Cardiff would have been a great place to start making content modular. It should have been designed so that route extensions could finally be a reality.

Of course that sort of logic is far too advanced for DTG’s ‘sell it & drop it’ philosophy.

 

well giving they were reluctant to tell us rivet had involvement in cardiff until the preview steam where matt finally confirmed rivet were involved that reluctance does make you wonder why they were so reluctant to tell us in the first place

 

British Ace was very fed up with the blurriness on Birmingham to Crewe and made it known.

 

Yes I bought it in a sale. It's quite nice for a quick out and back but I do feel should have gone up to Caerphilly and down to Barry at the very least.

 

Yeah Dad Rail I agree with you, he does criticise when it’s valid, but most of his content is streaming and that’s not my preferred way to view reviews. BA I don’t watch him personally as he’s not my cup of tea so I can’t comment on him.

The only really reliable source I use is Train Sim Society. He doesn’t hold back and he’s always honest about his concerns with the game.

 

The Cardiff route is a prime example of a demo. A snippet of a route that I feel had big ambitions, but due to strict deadlines it was cut short. This route was definitely not worth the £29.99 price tag at the time. £24.99 would’ve been more sensible.

 

TSS just copies what is said on the forums and takes credit for your thoughts and ideas.

And makes money off of you as well.

 

I don't know why anyone has to rely on some streamers view (ambassador or not). Dadrail is interesting as he's a train driver, BA I find relaxing in the most part. It's just a way for me to see what the content looks like, they seem to stream in better quality than DTG.

Fair enough for people to listen to views but I would worry if I bought stuff (or not) because someone from the internet said to or not too.

The worse are the ranting, introspective videos which seem more to be an ego massaging than anything.