Hello, as the title says I wonder why there are no German (or Central European) routes from the 60s-70s-80s. In the TSC the exact same thing happens and it is a strange phenomenon, after so many years and we do not have any routes from this era. On the contrary in the USA and UK there are routes from the 1970s period (TSC and TSW). Could it be a licensing issue (DR)? a political issue (West and East Germany)? a matter of interest? Thanks,
There is clearly a market for 80s UK / British trail stuff. gauging the reaction of people on this forum to releases from that era. Don't see that many asking for German and US content, except maybe for steam trains.
I can only think of one route set in the 70s and thats clinchfield route. Correct me if im wrong tho please.
The upcoming Neckartalbahn will be set in 1974 I think TSG said they would consider any time between 1945 and 1994, they might be moving back in time slowly with each route so there is more rolling stock to use for the next one
Dovetail is and always was super scared to touch any part of history with potentially negative connotations. The demand is clearly there, but the supply will have to come from third parties.
Would def love to have some DR / ex-DR stuff. Imagine some Halbersdtädter wagons those beige/green and beige/orange and a Ludmilla or so.
In a way, I'd love to see a ~2000 era route by TSG, just so we can have TSG's Expert loco's on their extrememly detailed routes. Wonder how many agree with this.
Definitely a third party job that, DTG themselves is unlikely to do such a thing anytime soon even if it would be incredibly interesting.
The Ludmilla was already on the Roadmap once, developed by TSG. It was added to the Roadmap back in the TSW2 Days, along with the BR 420. I have no idea if it will ever be released.
Hope someone will do one. From TSG would be great, tho. There'd of course also be opportunity for more stuff, like a 120 (Wumme), 118 (Babelsberger), Railbus (Ferkeltaxe) ect - I think these are all pretty rare among simulators.
Ludmilla (currently developed by TSG) My personal wishlist: - Dr Doppelstockwagen (both gen) - Dr 120 "Taigatrommel" - Dr 230 "Knödelpresse" Without forgetting those "U boats" (119) 1970s/80s Eastern Germans screaming: "we want to be brought in!"
Is that still the Case? The last I heard was that Development was supposed to continue once BR 420 is released, and this DLC is currently stuck in development hell. Did I miss any News about the BR 232?
Had been put on hold some time ago. Then dev resumed and (according to Markus?) should proceed behind scenes!
"Economically speaking there's no target group of significant size to make a profit." I've heard the same reasoning 20 years ago in the old MSTS era from German Railroads. They were known for producing historic railway lines. They made two and a half Eastern German routes and 6,5 Western German routes. Back then there at least was a target audience for that content - early Gen X, Baby Boomers and the last cohorts of Gen White. Now, 20 years later it's still the same demographic, but they're 20 years older, their lives have changed or, in the case of Gen White, ended naturally already. Those are the only generations to have experienced those eras. "Pretty small target audience." Now, the Western German content may still be of interest, prominently in Western Germany, which has a stronger economy than East Germany. It might be feasable to test that out and TSG are doing that with Neckartalbahn. Eastern German content may also be of interest, but the target audience is demographically smaller and is economically in a weaker position. There's also the technology issue with older generations, most Baby Boomers don't own a gaming PC or their last console was Gen 7. That's what I was told 20 years ago and how the alleged target audiences are faring now from what I am able to observe at least. What wasn't mentioned 20 years ago were younger Gen X, Millenials and Gen Z, mostly because the latter two were still in school and not part of the economy yet. Now, today's digital world is a completely different one than it was 20 years ago. Gaming has changed significantly, social media plays an enormous role in most people's lives, interests shifted. There is a community of young(er) railfans who would love to experience those times their parents and grandparents told them about, experience decades of steam in regular revenue service. But that community is relatively small compared to the ones of games like Fortnite, Roblox, COD, GTA.... and the gaming business is not in a good position these days. 1990's content is in a better position to sell, Millennials are the next in line for their obligatory mid-life-crisis, so they're a good target audience now, economically speaking. 1980's might also be in a better position due to Gen X's and early Millennials' nostalgia. Politically there are some issues with German content of those eras before reunification. There were MSTS routes from multiple publishers depicting historic Western and Eastern German railways. The western ones are less "problematic", the eastern ones were, but they were still produced. Mind you, MSTS was anything but immersive in comparison to what we have nowadays to play with. How immersive could an Eastern German route be without all the political propaganda and human rights violations in public? Would we want GDR transport police on the platforms? Would we complain if they weren't there because it's not era-appropriate without showing that side of the GDR? Or all the propaganda posters. Would they be missed? How would they be replaced and by what? Who'd be the one to throw the first stone and declare the route is glorifying or hiding the signs of the former regime? Personally I would love to see content, both Western and Eastern German, of the 1980's and ealier. From a purely nostalgic, railfan perspective there is so, so much interesting possible content. But how to realise them and not step on any major group's toes with railway safety boots and who to sell it in either state of the content? A safer bet would be something set in the early 1990's in my eyes and here's why: East Germany Railway infrastructure in East Germany was still mostly the same as it was before the fall of the Berlin Wall, workshops and depots were metaphrical bee-hives for all kinds of traction, Steam traction was officially a thing of the past, but there were countless engines still in steam to heat turnouts, depots and factories, The cadre of "Traditionsloks" of the Deutsche Reichsbahn was in large parts well maintained and in steam, being used for railtours, "Plandampf" was created during that time, there were so many events where the DR put their steamers into revenue service, Most Diesel and electric locos, along with most rolling stock of the GDR and pre WWII times were still in service or preserved, The infrastructure and the cities mostly looked like they did in the 1980's, but without the propaganda (the people were sick of it and tore down communist era monuments and propaganda posters already). West Germany A colourful mix of rolling stock, Diesel and electric traction were spread over the republic, Railbuses from the 1950's were still in services, side by side with the first ICE and multiphase current electrics, Steam was allowed back onto Bundesbahn tracks and it came from East and West Germany, Another transition time to the Produktfarben era with new trains like the ICE and the InterRegio, the Citybahn and S-Bahn systems, Many depots and workshops of old days were still open for business and you could still tell a "Railway-City" from the (already reduced, but still existent) hustle and bustle. There were endless possibilities on the horizon in the minds of the people of both Germanys and more than some came true, for railfans at least, on the tracks of both German states. There could be dozens of Livery-Gameplay-Packs sold alone for extra layers with colourful trains of both state railways and before everything became uniformed in the 2000's and early 2010's. So if it's colour people want, there's either the current era, but it'd need lots of licenses or 1990's where there were mostly the big two state railways painting with their whole palettes. Anyway, that's just my personal take on the matter and economic guesses adapted from 20 year old statements of now defunct game developers.
Yeah that crossed my mind, too. Shortly after reunification would be a nice alternative to avoid all the political stuff but have still those cool trains. Also it was an awesome mix of both worlds on the rails, like you said. All the old stuff could layer as railtours elsewhere, too. Is happening here all the time.
A real heartbreak for players from the former Soviet Union. Okay, the BR232 didn't work in the former USSR, only its younger brother, the 2TE116. But Lyudmila can still occasionally be seen at work, usually on service trains.
It is true that there is no exact route from the 70s, but there is the Ambergate of the 60s and the NTP and Tees Valley of the 80s. Well, for now there are 2 routes from the 90s. From DTG there are Koblenz - Mainz and Bremen Oldenburg from 2000
I think the idea that people are primarily interested in what they remember is not necessarily an accurate one.
Hello, thank you all very much for your comments. My question is mainly related to the comparison I make with my other railway hobby: the model railway. Big brands like ROCO in 1/87 manufacture a lot of material from German eras III and IV, so it has a lot of customers and a lot of fans. So, I don't think it's a political problem, I would find it naive, I won't go into details either because then we would start a political debate and that's not the subject (For me, this is more of an excuse.) I find that the 70s are one of the most beautiful decades of the railway due to its great variety of material, the impasse from steam to electric and diesel in between. I find that in the TSC there were more "retro" routes than in the TSW (Horseshoe Curve as an exemple), a shame really. I don't want a modern route with old rolling stock either, what I want is to capture the essence of a route from the 70s in its entirety. There is 1 free route for TSC that I love: the Italian "Nettuno - Campoleone", whoever has it will understand what I mean, this spirit of the 70s.
That's the Generation before the Baby Boomers according to Wikipedia. The ones who fought and or loved through WWII, some cohorts were parents to Baby Boomers like in my own family. My parents were late Baby Boomers and I'm a Millennial. Yes, there is interest in those periods even from generations who didn't live through them. But it's a niche game with a niche audience and 1970's routes for both Germanys also mostly mean steam traction, which is in the works in a second attempt. I'm positive that Neckartalbahn will sell well if TSG should be able to fix the steam aspect of Simugraph, also because it's a TSG DLC. The quality will be high both of the rolling stock and the route itself. We also got 7 locos that were already a common sight in that era in game, if dated back properly there are good possibilities for layers and future historic West German content. If done right, it'll sell. East Germany on the other hand.... We only got an outdated 155/250 and a lackluster 204/114 for that period. Both are old, both need a ton of work or complete rebuilds and backdating and we don't have a single passenger coach, not even a handful of goods vans and no possibility of layers, simply because most GDR built stuff was retired after the fusion of the state railways in 1994. We could add a third loco if TSG we're to modify their DB 194 into a DR 254, but what route would only feature those two big electrics and a 114? Classes like the 118, 112, 120, 130/131/132 and all the small shunters, big shunters like the DR 105/106, all those were broadly distributed and very common. If we had some of those it might be an enjoyable experience. But we don't, so it wouldn't and all we'd get would be a poorly treated one-off route without layers and no future like LGV or S-Bahn Luzern(Not giving up on the Netherlands yet, the route is "only" a year old, LGV is much older). Sales of another one-off would be worse than for something with a future.
Haven’t read the whole thread but I suspect the answer is the same as for UK and USA. DTG as a rule favour more modern routes, whether because it’s easier to research more contemporary stuff or they feel newer stuff is more commercially viable. That leaves heritage content in the hands of third parties like TSG who, as mentioned, are testing the water with an older route and steam loco. However TSG is but one developer who take their time to make stuff and will not churn out one route after another.
A train like this i would love to drive in TSW, truly is a shame that we do not have good variety of old trains in this game.
There should be a market for it however what would make it interesting is actually the existing East German Routes set in the 1970s combined mix traction is the norm
Bremen - Oldenburg is set in the late 2000's, so not in the 90's, however Niddertalbahn is set in the 90's.
maik has said to me on the tsw discord server that the br232 is still in planning to get added but there looking for what route they could add it too but yes it will eventually come the model itself is fully done mostly
My first Thought would be Dresden-Chemnitz or Ruhr-Sieg North. However, these Routes would need a Remaster first, and I doubt TSG has the Time and Money for that.
Ludmillas can still be seen all over the German network up until this day. You could put them on most German routes in theory.
The upcoming Neckartalbahn is set in the 70s, isn't it? It includes a BR23 steam loco and a green BR140, which likely sets it somewhere between 1957 and October 1977 (the end of timetabled steam operation in West Germany).
1974 to be precise, as was mentioned in the Season of Reveals Week 3 post. Also after just having visited the south-west on my recent vacation, I'm even more excited for that route now. Also saw a special service with 23 042, TSG likely having used the opportunity to record the engine. While I'd still buy any historic german route and especially one set in Eastern Germany, the possibility of that happening this decade are minute, so I've given up hope completely on that. So I've shifted my interest towards Western Germany, as it's more likely to get some more historic content in the future and all routes I just visited (and I'm talking double digits here) during the last two weeks, no Eastern German route comes to mind that'd come close to being as interesting landscape-wise anyway. Busy ones in the past, yes. But I highly doubt the landscapes have changed over the last 5 decades.
Well I’d argue that the Harz railway is definitely one of the most interesting landscape wise railway lines in Germany full stop. And who wouldn’t love a bit of 70s narrow gauge mountain steam routes?
I agree it's a lovely little network. An island network though which might get one loco DLC if we're lucky and that'd be about it. It would be an isolated line (we'd never get the full network, which might make it more interesting, most likely just the Brockenbahn like we got in TSC) with zero layers and no future in TSW. While I'd like to see it and would buy it, it wouldn't make much sense economically speaking since most engines used on that network only run on that network and nowhere else. Saxonian 750 mm narrow gauge wouldn't have that problem, as there are multiple routes and each one could come with its own loco. One route could feature the VI K, one the IV K, another the "VII K", variations of those and they could layer onto each other (with small adjustments like different couplers and numbers). Also those could be extensions to existing routes like Leipzig - Dresden (Döllnitzbahn and Lößnitzgrundbahn) or Dresden - Chemnitz (Weißeritztalbahn). Could be featured in a remaster of the latter route even. Would pay for it, since it'd bring substantial additions. But those will most likely never happen. I agree with your entry as well. It does look lovely. But it goes from Themar to Plaue, so basically from a hole in the ground to a tree in a field. Sure, it passes Schleusingen, which would provide a branch line to Suhl from where it could join the line to Arnstadt. And sure, there's also Ilmenau which had a porcelain factory on an industrial branch line. But those towns are and were rather small and not well connected to any main line. Now, if the 9 km from Plaue to Arnstadt would be added, it'd be another thing. Arnstadt had and has a substantial depot and is connected to main lines like Halle (Saale) - Bebra with big stations like Erfurt and Eisenach or interesting depots like in Weimar. Believe me, after visiting the TEV Weimar several times in the past two years now and it being a collection of mostly diesel and electric locos (which TSW already supports), the routes running many BR 612 units and BR 442 units (which we also already have), I've been contemplating if I should make a suggestion post for something in that area, in current times though since we've got modern traction to run there already. I looked at route maps and tried to come up with a good push. Simple A to B routes are quite monotonous and network style routes are much more engaging. Also the routes passing Weimar are either the branch line operated by a Stadler Regioshuttle (forget ever seing another Stadler train in the game as payware) to Kranichfeld (25 km, might be a nice romantic branch), Weimar - Gera (roughly 68 km, going via Jena, which is one terminus to the RE 3 [612] coming from Göttingen via Erfurt) and Halle - Bebra (210 km, waaaay too long for one DLC as a whole, but featuring interesting stations like Apolda, Naumburg (Saale), Gotha, Eisenach with the famous Wartburg and the Opel (former Wartburg) factory and the goods hub Großheringen). Now, Erfurt would be a good station to include, it's big and important and in current times connected to a high speed line. Was also important in GDR times without the modern high speed line. All those stations would be reasonable termini for a good route. Some offer massive gameplay like shunting and goods operations. But where to start, where to stop, what to include, what to leave for a different follow-up DLC? What would be feasable for DTG or TSG here? What would the players want from such a route to buy it and not (within reason) complain about? It'd be a good place for the 232 or a backdated 132. What would need to be built from scratch in rolling stock and traction from past decades to make the route not feel empty on release? What would such a DLC cost to produce, how long would it take to produce, what would be the selling price and would enough players buy it at that price? If there was a starting point with one route with "enough" appropriate traction and rolling stock out there already, it'd be a different thing. But there isn't. They'd need to make a start somewhere with something people actually want, that could be built upon from there. And for the 1970's we only got an outdated and awful sounding 155/250 and a third party 204/114, which is even more outdated and worse and will never get remade into something proper. The 143/243 wasn't built until the mid 1980's, so that's one loco less to use here. So while you two are right with your route suggestions, personally I've given up hope here. We'd need the bread and butter traction for that era and those haven't been in service with DB for decades now. Some still exist and even earn revenue for some private operators, but Bundesbahn traction and rolling stock from the same era is still in service with DB today and with private operators in much larger numbers, so easier to get references etc. The numbers are just better for west German historic content and we're getting some content in the foreseable future already. For my own sanity it's better to divert my hopes to things that are more likely to happen than to get constantly disappointed and soured. Don't need the east German Treuhand experience myself, it was bad enough as it was.
Simple answer, modern routes are a lot easier to make. Older routes may lack the resources, like the train company not existing anymore, licenses more difficult to acquire, getting source material (sounds) from older locomotives. Take your pick. Modern routes mostly everything is accessible and resources are easier to obtain.
Ha, I support having Erfurt in, just bc it's my home town. XD Of course, all totally valid points. Guess, it's just like everytime you add some new area / country and / or era - gotta start somewhere or you'll never diversify. A rough example would be how it was done with Stara Paka. Have a nice new route and bring in those 2 new trains (and those where done really well, imo), can always add more later - yeah it cost 5 bucks more or so, because it has lots of new stuff but was totally worth it. But whatever the case - always love the west historic content, too. Can't wait for the Neckartalbahn. Btw, what happened with Stadler and TSW? Did I miss something? So no regio shuttle or EuroDual ^^
