Dtg Are You Actually Trolling The Community?!

For those of you who don't follow Train Sim Society on YouTube, the contents of page 1 of this thread got a shoutout today in his video about MR being canned.

About 7 minutes in:



JB

 

I'm disappointed that the 'Special Edition' train, of that being the CrossCountry Class 220 Voyager, still has so many bugs which haven't been fixed.

A highly anticipated train which sadly turned out to be a disappointing experience. A real shame given how excited I was for it when it was first announced,.

I made an in-depth post (not a rant) about it here.

 

Well, you could just not personally buy anything and tell others not to buy anything...

If that is the case then that must have happened almost instantly after the company formed!

And things weren't even that great when we had the Preservation Crew!

 

When i thought DTG cares about quality back in tsw2 era times i spent hundreds of bucks every year for day one purchaises. That was when sam still was on board, to those times it seems to me dtg cared about well made realistic dlcs. I liked to support this vision.

Currently i skipped most of tsw5 / 6 release cycle to get the dlcs on 70-90% sale. I think it was with release of tsw4 when things shifted towards fire and forget.

 

Yeah there was certainly an upward curve towards TSW4, but you could tell then, that the yearly release cycle was breaking DTG. It took nearly the entire run up to TSW5 just to get TSW4 features on the games core routes, there’s still TSW4 DLCS that don’t have suspension. Thats before you get to the nosedive in technical quality.

Even since then though, we’ve had some nice releases from DTG, but even those got caught into bodged patches & left to rot.

Hopefully DTG are now shoring up their defences so to speak, and realise TSW is an incredibly important asset to them, which is currently being badly mistreated.

 

Deliverance? Hope he’s good at canoeing and playing the banjo! Sorry mate.. that’s no excuse. Who disappears from their/a business for a ‘few weeks’ and leaves nobody else in charge? We’re not talking about a local plumber.

 

There are other people in Charge, he is entitled to his annual leave.

 

I never said he wasn’t… merely pointing out, as many others have, in countless threads across these forums, that are easily found, that explanations on fix/updates bla bla never seem to be addressed for people shelling out hard earned cash. And if others are in charge as you put it… where are they? The buck stops, or should do, with the organ-grinder… not the monkeys! If you can’t stand the heat, don’t be a chef!

 

I don't think we should be going into a debate about what Matt does with his time off, or whether or not people should be entitled to their annual leave. His wife might be American but DTG is based in a developed country where people are allowed time off without it being a taboo subject, and there's a fair chance this time off was planned months before any inkling of this latest development / announcement was apparent. As Fawx quite rightly says, there are other people in charge at DTG, Matt isn't the only person on the management team.

There have only been two full working days since they announced MR was being binned, I suspect staff were already aware a few days ahead of the formal announcement but assuming a team of 20-odd people, maybe more, I would imagine there are quite a few interviews to get through, either to shift people to other teams within DTG or to, sadly, start talking about redundancy packages...

Only then can the focus shift to what's next for TSW. Hopefully it will mean more focus on QA and bugfixing in order to get customer confidence back on track, because right now people are making their purchasing decisions based on a long history of negative experiences, both with the state of initial releases and the very poor follow-up and communication around bugfixes.

JB

 

?Maybe Matt is stuck in the infamous Strait?

 

Or the Bermuda Triangle!

 

Ye gods (exasperated)… you sound like you’re quoting out of some PC manual issued by the ‘never say anything someone might not like society’… this thread, and as already pointed out in hundreds of other threads.. people are rightly not happy that stuff they’ve paid for isn’t only not fixed but promises aren’t kept that they will be. It’s not about some bloke being on holiday, where he takes his holiday and who with and what he does or doesn’t do on said holiday… it’s about broken things not being fixed, responsibility for that not happening and communication on said issues not being accurate and forthcoming. I understand if this isn’t covered in the aforementioned manual, but in REAL LIFE, when people don’t get what they pay for, they’re more than entitled to express an opinion even if it does touch a nerve!

 

I'm pointing out that moaning about someone daring to be on annual leave is a) irrelevant since companies don't suddenly grind to a halt when that happens, and b) it's not going to make a blind bit of difference in the context of twenty years of Kuju / RSC / DTG keeping this franchise alive without fixing core bugs. There are issues in the current build of TSC that have been there since v1 of Rail Simulator. The TSW core is not getting fixed, there is no point hoping for a miraculous change in DTG's strategy. People are still buying, the money's still rolling in, why would they bother?

If you read any of my other posts you'll see I spend a fair bit of my time complaining about this. I used to be a serial day-one purchaser, certainly for all UK content that's ever been released and even for US commuter routes which I'm only just about interested in. I stopped doing day-one purchases about a year ago and in that time I think the only TSW purchase I've made was Birmingham to Crewe and the Evero, so about £50 whereas before I'd spend hundreds of pounds a year. Problem is only a few of us seem to be doing this, judging by the number of comments in the feedback threads on day one of release, so it's not going to change anything since everyone else is continuing to buy on day one regardless of DTG's track record of releasing DLC crippled with bugs and then either a) fixing the bare minimum, b) not fixing it at all or c) promising other stuff as a distraction.

JB

 

Employers in the UK and most of Europe still have the right to restrict the timing of one's annual leave specifically for reasons like this, and in general you're guaranteed time in July-August. This is notwithstanding someone's ownership stake.

 

Again this has been happening for years and it doesn’t take much to see where it all falls apart.

Who wants all this BS?. The endless feedback loop that never resolved anything years later.
Customers or speaking generally don’t need to understand or hear the ins and outs of how a company works.
All a customer cares about is the product. We buy and use for what that product is designed to do.
If it falls outside of what’s it’s designed to do then it’s classified as non functional, defected or not fix for purpose.

Now we are speaking on a public forums and so all have a say on the matters. For one I appreciate the insight you and others have provided on the subject.
But each time we leave comments these will be forgotten in time and the same cycle continues.

And that goes for DTG too in what’s it’s done since TSW2 and TSW3, the. TSW4.
I can imagine this is who it played out in the board room.

Okay we have TSW2 with loads of faults and it will take a large team effort to resolve. Time and resources taken away from TSW3.
Right well we have buy time buy covering things over with roads maps to distract from certain issues.
We can get some YouTubers to be ambassadors and they can weather the storm for us.

I can see teams on the ground doing all the hard work of testing etc passing the findings onto higher level staff who no doubt have profit margins at the core of what they do. Everyone has a job to do.

So DTG carry’s on with TSW3 while all the hype is being generated by ambassadors, teams all excited about TSW3 and the public is all excited about the new weather system. The distractions.
But when TSW3 did land it did nothing to resolve matters for TSW2 users.

The rumbles were loud and so DTG with TSW4 offered a free game that again did nothing to fix issues from TSW2 including those found in TSW3. It being free was the next best thing to address the problem publicly yet for user experience from TSW2 didn’t see it that way.
I believe it was around this time two narratives emerged, ones that could be considered fans boys and then those that spoken openly about DTG business model and what it delivers to the customers standards. I myself opened many threads up in the past to discuss what’s going wrong and what could be done about it.

In some ways not be so hard or critical on what the devs do but rather who has the last word on if the product is ready for market.
Why I appreciate your opinions because it offers reader’s insight into what’s really happening behind closed doors.
It can’t be easy for staff at DTG to constantly get blamed for what’s going wrong with products.
I believe as a community can put down DTG all day long but where does it get the user or do to those staff members witness to all their hard work going down the pan all because of someone else’s decision.

Getting the root of the problem is key. Be for DTG or 3rd parties, it’s also important for the community and the public at large to make an educated decision about a future purchase.
Is it our responsibility to care what DTG do?, then yes if we love the franchise. But how about user base from TSW2 days that have seen it heard it and seen it all.

Well after TSW4 when the two narratives emerged then in time the community and the public understand DTGs business model and now they are taking advantage of that.
Once loyal hard core fan boys see with everything related to DTG brings them issues. Not just buying a product and enjoying it, no no no, it takes any down time for entertainment away by replacing it with frustration in bugs or errors.
Customer confidence drops each and every time it happens, but no long fools to the franchise buying at full cost hold off.
If done on a regular basis then sales and profit margins will fall dramatically, why I think the company has so many sales offers on.

Since TSW4 DTG has basically stuck to the same business model yet made the decision to focus on new products instead while 3rd party products reach market in a pretty poor manner. Be for the people or person who develops 3rd party products or customers who purchase them can be a rough deal.
All because somewhere along the line communication between parties or in house staff aren’t reaching those responsible for big decisions or decisions are being decided wrongly. Each step could leave those on the ground like devs with no real answers or control on what gets released.

And for the franchise now well I all I can say it’s not right (If being PC)

The free game is a con, by enticing people to download with the hopes a new player spends on added content.
Speaking for a younger audience the products can be quite confusing if new to the game or trains in general.
All these new players find themselves stuck or frustrated leading some to vent on the forums, this result in the narrative being that of open criticism, negative opinions or pure frustration.

I guess and looking at the situation now and the pattern that led up this position facing DTG is one of loss of customer faith.
Being a long standing customer seen the decline and so can relate to those that hold of or buy the odd item now and again.

I have used the word fool or used the word to describe the community acts as foolish by continuing to ramble about DTG and its failure to deliver. Walk away from the situation. That’s my personal choice.

However I am saying the process is complete without rubbing salt into the wounds of the innocent.
I can’t say a lot but it’s hard for people who work hard on anything to keep hearing the same old stories.
Is the damage done?, DTG damaged its teams, it’s 3rd party relationships and it’s once loyal customer base.

The narrative is essentially everything, lose that and lose the war. DTG has lost that because it has nothing to hide behind.
YouTubers now speak the truth over the past glossy reviews, all because the product is inherently flawed.
3rd party developers are even taken steps to avoid damage to their product or reputation.
Even key members have started to jump ship.

The public is now becoming increasingly wary about what DTG releases because the narrative has naturally shifted towards truth.
All this will eventually lead to a customer decline pushing DTG into a tighter position to act or even move forward because each new product has problems. And as you have already explained how the system works can see how slow the political process of getting word from teams to a manager table can lead to bringing the situation to a stand still.

It just falls apart eventually if trust is no longer there in a company. Be staff or customers will in time have enough and simply walk away.

✌.

 

Getting abit (read: very) ridiculous with that insinuation. As the EP he’s probably behind some decisions that won’t be popular with customers, but he’s clearly hard working & regardless of where we are at today, he’s probably one of a handful of people that have kept virtual train simulation alive all these years.

If Matt’s being away causes such dire issues at DTG, then him being away is the least of those problems.

I can’t believe we’re even discussing the notion that it’s a problem he’s taking time off, or discussing it beyond the initial fact he’s off at all.

 

If it were an oil spill or worker killed on the job yes I would expect the top brass to come off vacation.

But 1. We are talking about a video game not some major environmental disaster or a serious enough matter for someone to rush back for PR. If you think it is maybe step back from the screen and go outside for a few weeks.

And 2. Matt has others that are higher up the totem pole than he is. Maybe its time for the CEO to speak up or others above Matt for once.

And for those wondering about the conversation about this on Discord I can tell you there isn't one. People are actually talking about things they are enjoying about the game and asking questions when they get stuck and getting answers that actually help. Like the forums used to be.

Its like day and night on here its all doom and gloom and conspiracy theories and if you mention you enjoy the game at all be prepared for 20 posts on how can you possibly enjoy the game with issues.

 

I think a few people need to go outside and get some fresh air. Lots of the criticisms very valid but I hazard a guess that when looking at the Forum usage, there's probably a majority of people who don't use this forum, and for those that do, many are seeing an increasing level of toxicity on it to the point I'm almost tempted to stop using it. Despite valid criticisms I feel this place is becoming an echo chamber.

 

If they will go to UE 5, they better make sure the older content from TSW is transferable

 

That people are shifting their expressed concerns from the game to the people behind the game, like how and when Matt spends his vacation for crying out loud, is unbelievable. Actual attacks on the CMs, who used to be considered hands-off by even the bigger nonsense purveyors of yore, even more so. And then people complain about the lack of DTG presence in a forum that's continuing to become more and more acidic and disrespectful. That might not be an issue for those whose goal seems to be to do maximum damage to DTG rather than seek improvements in the game, but those who truly want the latter can help by calling out the more overt b.s. and toxicity rather than letting it take root.

 

Unfortunately, it's pretty much been made clear that moving to UE5 will require a full rebuild of the game. My own assumption is that due to the headaches that resulted whenever they upgraded UE4 to a higher point version (IIRC 4.19 to 4.23 and then 4.26), they're waiting until UE5 has finalized before making that jump. But UE5 also comes with its own issues, and most of the feature discussions I've seen in the upgrade encouragements in the forums have looked like nice-to-haves rather than needs. Many know more about that than I do, though.

Main thing would be, is the benefit of the upgrade worth the time and money investment in implementing it? Right now DTG has a known quantity in their years-stable version of UE 4.26. Adopting UE5 would mean modifying and bugfixing that in addition to the converted game core and all DLCs. And I don't know if or how much Simugraph ties in to UE, so would getting them to work together be still more dev time? Given that DTG has a host of bugfixes that they haven't gotten to and even patches that they haven't QAed yet, I don't know how they would even fit a UE5 update in.

 

Sorry, its the weekend. Gaming and the Forums close at 5. We’re open again Monday at 9..

Remember what happened over the class 390 leaks a couple of years ago in this very forum…

 

I occasionally wonder if some of the issues in game is that new locos are being developed in UE5 and back ported into UE4.26. It would kind of make sense if DTG are indeed looking at releasing a UE5 train sim so they have a book of stock ready to go out of the box so to speak.

But for now I’ll take my tin foil hat off

 

Its wholly doable…there’s a lot of work necessary but it can be done but for whatever reason it won’t

 

That is the trouble nowadays…if one has a contrary opinion one cannot voice it without being cancelled!

 

What do you suggest then? We all travel to DTG HQ with our pitchforks?

 

I guess from a company perspective the EP of trains being on leave while guys and gals are seemingly being atleast told their roles are officially under risk of redundancy isn’t ideal. But that got sweet FA to do with the player base and just like every European employee (excluding self employed) Matt is entitled to take his leave and have a well earned break just like the rest of us. Now I know over the pond paid annual leave isn’t a right (although from my understanding most decent employers still offer some even if it’s not the 28 days plus we get over here) so perhaps it’s merely a cultural difference?

 

They probably don't. But it is still a game and only because people these days can't stand waiting more than 10 seconds for an answer to what they have on their minds, does not meen that DTG members now have to start working on weekends, too.
Just wait for the next week, stop behaving like world peace depends on a reaction of DTG and enjoy your sunday!

And for the people whose arguments start by "But I spent XY amounts of money on this game": I cannot remember being forced by DTG at any time to buy one of their products the first day. I wait, look at the amount of bugs turning up - we all know they always turn up - and then decide whether or not I want to spend my money on the product.
Yes, I would love to see bugs fixed, too. But again: It's not worth all that hysteria. Wait for an answer and if there is not going to be one, plan your future behaviour accordingly. To keep buying new stuff and afterwards complain about bugs not getting fixed, when you already know the drill, is just nonsense.

 

If it’s a support ticket then yeh I agree about weekend working but a forum should surely have some sort of CM around - there are enough of them to stagger their working hours so that they only need to rotate once in a while. The world has moved on from nine to five, closed on a Wednesday and shut at the weekends!

Let me make this clear too…I’m not talking about anyone that is on annual leave!

 

Good. Nobody has said he isn’t a nice bloke or not passionate about TSW.

Apologies if I misinterpreted your post.. but for some extra context… I’ve run three businesses, one dealing with large transport operations that operate 24/7-365.. so that’s how we operated. There was never anyone not at the end of a phone.

Im very new, about three months or so, to this game. I find it quite good and actually like playing it even if my Mrs now thinks I’m odd. I’ve bought a number of add on DLC in that short time, so I’ve already invested a few £ in the game. With regard to earlier iterations of the game and DLC, obviously I can’t comment but even from your comments, stuff hasn’t been and won’t be fixed.

I was going to buy the 90 diesel for example.. but now I’ve got used to the forum, I’m glad I didn’t and won’t until they fix it. It’s absolutely best NOT to be a day one purchaser. It’s appalling that there’s been no followup. It smacks of taking the £ and clearing off into the sunset.

Eventually they’ll run out of a supply of mugs… of which I’m undoubtedly one.

Despite the fact I’ve bought what I’ve bought and maybe not had the game spoilt by an endless list of faults yet, I’m wondering if I should have got farm simulator instead, planted wheat, finished up with a crop of carrots that I ended up selling to the local abattoir.

For now, when I get back to the trains, it’ll be to redo yet again, the emptying of a long train of gravelly stuff, and backing out of a siding through a red light you can’t see placed about 300 yards short of where the game says you have to shunt to. Quite how you’re supposed to see a red signal 400 yards behind you without Doing an outside view, which you can’t do in real life, I’ve no idea. Perhaps this a bug I’ve found of my own and maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

Are you going to send in the Spanish Inquisition? Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. But please, not the Comfy Chair!

Butthurt. Is that word some kind of Americanisation for ‘upset’?

 

I'm British, but sure call me American because you have somehow never heard the phrase "butt hurt" LMAO

 

Erm, I would suggest not buying TSW DLC and then moaning that it has issues, considering DTG's extensive and long-term history of systematically releasing DLC full of issues and then not doing much / anything about it.

Only then might they reconsider their strategy.

 

If you are no longer getting enjoyment from the game go find something else. Whilst I’ve been more selective over my purchases it’s only the class 90 which I’ve yet to get enjoyment from.

Have they been perfect? No but they are still highly enjoyable and I’ve zero interest in cutting my own nose off to spite my face and boycott further DLC I want

 

In that case, don't expect anything to change and maybe don't bother getting involved in discussions with people who do want things to change. You're sending DTG the message that it's ok to release faulty DLC and then not fix it, which in my opinion isn't helpful unless you're happy being ripped off

 

I’ve heard of the phrase but thought it was normally used by American prisoners ..It’s just not a phrase that most English people would use to convey displeasure. I’ve used that phrase ‘arse ache’, after a cycle ride but wouldn’t say to any of my cycling buddies, ‘that ride was a ‘butt hurt’. I’ll send Shakespeare a message and see what he makes of it. LOL. Anyway, let’s get back to TSW.

 

That won't happen, all the DLC would need to be rebuilt from the ground up to work in UE5 it's not like flicking a light switch.

 

If I’m getting enjoyment from it how am I getting ripped off exactly? Could things be better? Yes, but a mass boycott isn’t going to get the improvement you want, it will only reduce the investment in the company which will lead to lower standards or the total lack of TSW. Selective purchasing of the better DLC however will show when they get it right there is more money to be made.

 

But even the good DLC's still have bugs that haven't been fixed even though it's been reported by the 3rd party developers that it had been fixed, and they were waiting for DTG to release it.

There seems to be absolutely ZERO issues with DTG pushing updates to their own products in quick order. For example the GWE remaster and the Riveria line have all had 3 or 4 patch drops since release, yet WCMLoS, MAC and Mildmay line are still waiting for theirs.

Do you see a trend here???

 

If you want to really confuse em call em a FUD! (waits for fellow scots to reveal it)

 

and for a very simple reason, migrating to UE5 would most likely mean making us buy all the dlcs again
and they know that would be a disaster because they would lose thousands of loyal dlc consumers
for me, it would be goodbye to tsw
so I really hope they DON'T do it

 

They could probably port the assets, but the world would definitely need rebuilding, and if you're doing that you may as well refresh the assets to take advantage of the newer engine, so yeah a UE5 change would mean basically rebuilding everything again and there's not a cat in hells chance of that being done for free.

 

"would need to be rebuilt from the ground up" makes it sound like they don't know how to port models, textures or audio.

I think if they had a failure and needed to make TSW in UE4 again "from the ground up" they wouldn't be unable to.

 

So you’re saying I should stop buying 3rd party DLC to teach DTG a lesson? That makes perfect sense yes. But seriously it’s the 3rd parties that should be fighting DTG over this issue not me. I’ve had hours of entertainment on all 3 of the routes you quoted.

 

I'm enjoying all the doommongers saying they'll abandon TSW if it moves to UE5 without backwards compatibility and I'm jyst sat here thinking "how's it different to TSC > TSW?"

 

Speaking for myself i moved to TSW from TSC not just for the graphics, my main reason was the free roam, and the timetable mode, you feel more part of a world than an instance in TSW, but TSC will probably be always in my top 5 mainly because of the audio and feel of the stock, to this day TSW still lacks the feel of weight and inertia that TSC has, i can't pin down exactly what's different between the two, but TSC feels better to drive.

 

Nope. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm just saying that DTG, can get updates out for their own routes quickly, yet 3rd party dev's get stonewalled with QA silence for months.

 

Not true, the assets can be ported across. The environment would be completely different but it’s not insurmountable however.

Anyway, at some point TSW or it’s successor will be on a different engine whether that’s Unreal or something different. What are you gonna then? Moan about it is my guess!

 

It’s still up to the 3rd parties to take that up with DTG not us as players. With the exception of the class 90 every DLC I own is extremely playable and I don’t regret those purchases one bit whether it’s a 3rd party route or not. Updated or otherwise

 

We might not like it, but the most likely root cause of delayed 3rd party patches is due to the consoles. Since we already know that DTG handles all the distribution, and 3rd parties are not game studios with their own relationships with MS and Sony, to get developer kits, they are at the mercy of what is available at/through DTG. And this most likely means that builds for consoles are prepared by DTG based on the code and assets that the 3rd parties commit into a release, while they can pack and internally test on PC the consoles need to go through DTG. And we know confirmed from the Medway issues that in depth PS5 testing is not really even being done due to them not being in Sony's proper Beta program.

In conclusion, DTG can prepare and submit updates for in-house content as often as they wish and keep to at least delivering something each month, while any patches coming for 3rd party content get placed in a queue of sorts in order to be processed by someone at DTG in order to get it through QA and into a patch window. If there is any issue it all goes back to the bottom when the 3rd party submits a new code revision. And most likely new content still takes priority over fixes.

Order of priority of what gets released to QA and in the end to stores, most likely is:
- New Game versions
- New In House DLC
- New 3rd Party DLC
- Core Patches
- In House DLC Patches
- 3rd Party DLC Patches

Both DTG Liam and DTG Lukas are now both 3rd pary developers and DTG team members as well (as far as I know). And not even their content that they produce as 3rd parties is exempt of the process, it would be immoral if they got preferrential treatment yes, at the same time these are the people that could help make the process better by seeing both sides.