We As A Community Need To Buck Up Our Ideas, Improve Ourselves & Do Better...

Maik has not left the forums completely, as he yesterday replied on here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/br218-to-the-rescue-scenario.84109/

The post he replied on, was not friendly at all and an accusing one. TSG already submitted a patch, but DTG never released it. So people are frustraded because of unsolved issues, the dev already did a fix, but DTG does not release it. So this shows exactly why people are getting frustraded about DTG and it's also frustrating for the 3rd party devs.

 

I see nothing wrong with the OP post there. I see no toxicity. He found something not working, he reported it. No blame placed anywhere. That's not toxic, is it?

 

Not the OP, but the post before the post of Maik

 

I don’t really agree that the game is in a downward spiral - it certainly HAS been, but clearly the discontent has been heard because we are also seeing acknowledgments that it needs to be fixed. Whether or not these prove to be empty promises still remains to be seen - if it’s still in a mess this time next year then fair enough, the evidence will speak for itself. But right now I think they have a chance to pull it back.

And so do we, as a community. We don’t need to be so polarised. Perhaps this is just a reflection on the way society in general is going, but I for one think there’s still hope. Again, I might be an idealist and this time next year I’ll have quietly left the forums, but right now I’m cautiously optimistic.

 

Asking if they (TSG) have testers or they're sleeping, is not very polite. We don't know when the patch was submitted to DTG, but is can be quite some time ago. Also, as Maik explains, when you're on time you can still finish it, so it's not really a bug. It's always better to be polite when you don't know the ins and outs.

 

I didn't say it was toxic, however it sounds not friendly but accusing. But as I said a few times earlier in this thread, people are getting frustrated so the tone is shifting too. This issue could aldeady been fixed, as TSG has already submitted a patch to DTG, so DTG is the one to blame here, again.

 

Not very polite, also not factually correct, but also not 'toxic'. If you want examples of toxic, there's plenty of those on these forums.

 

This is one of the areas where the CM's should (in both my and I think others, opinion) be earning their biscuits. Updates on items reported in both the Troubleshooting and Feedback forums. Do what SimRail do, mark issues as open, duplicate or even invalid and anything resolved is then locked with details of the action taken (or not). There's just no organised system or structure that I can see to do this. Frequent updates would avoid much of the perceived *toxicity" which I'm afraid, again, comes to to poor community relations.

 

Here is another games bug tracking using Discord. DTG have all the tools needed to do something similar but it's another example of "everything is extremely difficult for DTG".

Remembering that they close tickets when bugs are reported before there is a resolution, it would be strange for them to list all the issues with their game in a single place everyone can see them when they have such an evasive business ethic.

 

Ah, do I spot a fellow World of Warships player, MadduckUK ?

 

Not wanting to out myself as a crazy person, but yeah from closed alpha.

 

I'm sorry but what is this take?

Do you think community managers are corporate drones that aren't allowed to have a personality? And that because she took what like 2 minutes of her time to talk about a snake that means she isn't busy?

Outstanding logic.

 

Same here, although I've been avoiding any PvP as best as possible, because of toxicity. And that gets up back on topic

 

What do you want them to say other than "we are aware of this issue and are looking into it"?

Also both Candace and Jamie are active in the feedback thread for Trent Valley on their Discord server so nothing is being ignored here.

 

I'm reminded that no sooner did Candace say hi than someone accused her of being an AI bot.

The problem is, once that culture gets set in, with a circle-jerk of snark and misinformation being generated and repeated mindlessly and with automatic upvotes guaranteed, it's as hard to excise as a fibroid tumor. Kinda like some politicians, when the ounce of prevention fails, the pound of cure becomes more like a ton.

 

Whisper: Asymmetric is the best thing to happen for YEARS, watch them continue to wreck it!

 

...aaand what was the correlation between the thread topic and this post again?

 

I have been a member of these forums from the beginning and was a frequent contributor, but have avoided them for several months because of the lack of decorum and maturity of many. Still enjoying TSW, but don’t need to waste time here the forums since almost ever thread seems to degenerate into useless diatribe.

 

Spot on could not agree more.

 

This is it and why it's become an echo chamber and that is why there is so much glumness here because those of us who are enjoying it, I suspect feel the forum offers very little. Therefore you get 40 or so regular posters most of whom seem to be unhappy.

I used to visit several times a day, not any more and this is why the forums will end up becoming irrelevant in the future.

 

Technically you just did it...

 

And there is the problem, they have abandoned the forum for Discord, a format which is not geared to structured discussion or that many on here wish to use. While the forum exists, it should be supported equally.

As regards Candace being a bot, that may have been me but the assertion at the time was based on information received in very good faith and subsequently corrected and apologies made for the misunderstanding.

 

I this is one of the main reasons why this community is not worth the time.. snarky and not needed…

 

If they're more active on Discord than the forum, there's a good reason for it.

But I agree that the forum should be supported more fairly. Unfortunately, I also understand DTG too to be less active when you see what the forum in question looks like.

 

Can't speak to forum vs Discord since I've never used the latter. People here say that's closer to live chat. It's also been said here that the Discord crowd can also be high maintenance, so maybe they need more of a mod presence. At any rate, I daresay that if the forums move to being more enjoyable and less of a FromSoft poison swamp, we'd see them here more.

IIRC, it was someone else who tossed out the accusation (and who, unlike you, never mea culpaed). But my point, and the point of the thread, is the behavior, not targeting specific people.

 

Unfortunately the type of snarky remarks and rude behaviour you received is exactly the type of stuff I'm trying to advocate against and return to some form of etiquette.

It's like I said in my original post, it's always the vocal minority that are bringing the forum down, and that vocal minority are often the loudest.

I'm sure we can all agree there's no issue with some slight sarcasm or jovial remarks... We are not complete androids. But the amount of unpleasant behaviour towards Devs, DTG and even just in this thread to others that is unnecessarily rude just isn't on, and the scale of it is getting out of hand and is derailing what can be fairly decent threads.

In terms of discord someone would have to tell me what the moderation and etiquette is like on there as I'm to old and long in the tooth to bother with such things... Forums are more my cup of tea. I think DTG are trying to cater for the younger generation at the cost of us who are slightly older and prefer different formats. There certainly needs to be a balancing act between the two. But I do get the impression the forum is becoming a more and more hostile environment that make DTG want to only interact where necessary because anything they say or do is brought down by this vocal minority who like to hijack things and become unnecessarily personal and abusive at times.

As I've said dozens of times already, criticism is completely valid, but it's the way some are conduct themselves and that criticism that just isn't on at all. It doesn't take a lot of effort to conduct yourself like an adult or voice your grudges in a productive manner.

 

Sorry I didn't see this earlier and is worthy of a reply...

I am not blaming the entire community for single peoples reactions. But I am trying to advocate the community collectively calling out such behaviour and not turning a blind eye to it... Like in the case of Harry, I felt I was one of the only ones that called others out whilst others turned a blind eye. If I see someone getting bullied in real life, or personally abused for no reason, I have, and would like to think in future I'd step in.

Moderaters have the overall job to officially act on this in type of personal abuse. But as individuals we should also call out these people to make sure they know their behaviour is unacceptable at an official level and as a collective community that doesn't tolerate bullying or personal insults.

I think what I'm advocating for has a very marmite reaction, but I'd like to think if we want to stop this type of behaviour we all have a role to play where possible not to tolerate it. I'll often call out personal remarks or insults, not because I want to be a forum 'sheriff' but because alot of it is unjustified and unhelpful. But I'm fairly sure 90% of the forum are decent people, with etiquette who wouldn't tolerate personal abuse either.

We are never going to have complete perfection, but we can certainly try our best to make the forum a more welcoming place and return to some form of etiquette we have lost over the last year or so.

 

The post Lead got is much less rude than how people who announce how they're leaving the forums get treated, those threads are filled with snark. Heck, the OP of the thread was doing that in this thread, which caught me off guard.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/im-done-with-dtg.94209/

I'm sure someone will argue "They were was rude, so he got what he deserved", but if you're going to argue that "We as a community" need to call out stuff, then that involves treating people you don't like with that same respect you want. If you treat the people with snark don't be surprised when people then assume that they can use it against you or others you like.

Shout out to Harry though who actually did a very professional response to that thread.

 

To be honest I completely stand by that comment as it wasn't personal or rude like you're trying to make it out to be. It was telling someone to calm down on a thread that was highly abusive and swearing... I think Michael Winner could do with intervening in other threads and telling them to calm down when they were being abusive, swearing and being outright disrespectful.

Sort of feeds back to my other points of intervening when people are being extremely and unnecessarily rude. If I was swearing, being highly abusive and carrying like the individual in that thread and someone on the forum told me "where is Michael Winner when you need him, calm down!" that would probably be one of the most tame jovial replies you could get.

 

My counter is that when you're not in a great mood a "jovial" don't get taken very well, the fact you're treating their situation as a joke itself can be taken the wrong way.

You reply to Lead that-

But fundamentally I don't see much of a difference between their reply and yours from that perspective. Neither reply I'd expect the person in question being replied at to magically see "the error in their ways". In both cases if anything it just cements that the place you've rejected is not gonna take you seriously and that you're right for cutting it out.

That is how I read them at any rate.

 

For me atleast it just just comes across as clutching at straws as I've done something to get under your skin so you're desperately trying a "gotcha!" moment... But you haven't, and I'm not even ashamed of the example you gave. If I'd be swearing and balling like the OP in that thread then sure, but to use the Michael Winner example of me being snarky, rude, or personal to someone doesn't really hold weight to me, and in actual fact it's likely something I would repeat and say again in a similar circumstance. Also the insinuation that I'm fanning the flames of that individual is sort of duff too. He was told to calm down in the fashion of Michael Winter in an advert... Hardly the provocation you're making it out to be. Sometimes people need to see the ridiculousness in their abusive behaviour.

The example you gave from that OP is also the type of abuse I'm on about. Swearing, balling and being genuinely abusive... Not being able to conduct themselves or their criticism like an adult and completely embarrassing themselves at the same time by acting like a loud mouth and abusive forum member. Surely even you've got to see that isn't the way to conduct yourself or talk to people?

I'm advocating to stop people being abusive to staff and Devs first and foremost and having some etiquette in general. And secondly the smarky remarks from this thread are being done in a completely different fashion and context... I just feel I've touched a nerve with some (not all though). From that thread you use as the example of a comment (from me) saying calm down in the fashion of Michael Winner towards a highly abusive forum member. In this thread the smarky remarks were being made to someone just for discussing what they perceive to be abusive comments on the forum. I don't think the two are that comparable or in the same context.

 

again, totally uncalled for.. with over 70 years under my belt, I understand decorum and polite public discourse. This forum used to be a useful avenue for discussion and even healthy debate. But comments like yours add nothing to a discussion and to be rather honest, does not shine a very flattering light on whatever the point you are trying to put forth. What I get from it you would rather not have polite discussions, or even showing a modicum of proper courtesy but rather put out snarky one liners. I totally agree with the OP’s original post and your comment supports his points more than you know.

Edit - I see the uneccessary and uncalled for comment was removed by the poster --- maybe a move in the right direction

 

I'd consider myself to be a member of a few gaming communities.
The train simulation community is truly something else...... so thank you for this post.

 

In 2026 people are way too comfortable saying things behind a keyboard and with a level of anonymity that they wouldn’t say to a person’s face. These forums are no different than the rest of the internet.

I have frustrations as well and enjoy voicing them here in the right setting, but I just don’t understand how people can be so disrespectful just because they can hide behind a keyboard. But unfortunately that’s the world we live in today.

 

I've noticed it too.
There are people who criticize TSW in an almost mocking way, but then as soon as an addon is released, they start a race to see who can download it to their SSD first.
Lots of words and little coherence.
Clearly people who don't have much to do in life...

 

I've been on many a forum as has many people and I use to run a large forum with a team of Mods and had great fun but what I found out very quickly is that any forum is only as good as it's moderators the best forums are the ones with the least rules and petty rules at that. I've seen a lot worse forums than here but then again I've seen a lot better.

As a poster recently posted any forum member trying to moderate the forums will only get some angry it should come from the mods.

 

Agree with this almost completely, but when mods start banning/closing threads, then people start saying they are silencing the community. So it’s lose/lose, but I’d rather have a forum where it’s more respectful than one that is more open but lacks common courtesy.