General Discussion Has Survived (just)

that makes it sound much worse than it actually is, as if there’s 80,000 active threads right now. the vast majority of threads’ race is run after a month or two, so it’s not like dtg have to constantly monitor them

 

Volunteers. Grant limited moderator rights to prominent users and topic authors. There are plenty of people here who don't want "power" but want to help. This is normal practice on large forums.
At the same time, create an archive: close and move there topics that have been inactive for about a year (except for feedback and other important topics).

 

I think most that needs to be said has been said already. I will just add my 2 cents.

First, it is difficult to anger so many people with just one decision, including many well known and trusted forum members, content creators (one of them made the best guides for german content by far) and modders (including the one that made the probably most used external app for the game).
I understand the CMs think this is a good decision as I have heard and read some of them pushing for changes in this direction previously. Let me put it this way: Even if you are right (and I think you aren't), getting the customers angry is always a bad idea. Doesn't matter how good you think your reasons for the change are.

Second, if you do not allow to make threads about any game related topic in this forums there can only be 2 possible outcomes:

1. People switches to another forum out of your control to post about any topic they want freely. In fact, wouldn't be surprised if people start posting about all the problems in the Steam Discussion forums instead. I'm sure you will love that.
2. They just stop visiting this forum except maybe once in a while to post a bug report, and lose contact with what is new in the game.

You tell me if any of those options benefits DTG at all.

Last I will say is when I think if I should buy a DLC or not I usually check what others say in the forums first and, if still in doubt, ask others what they think about the DLC. Mostly if it has many annoying bugs (I don't care that much about small things) and if the timetable is well done (this is difficult to assess with 3/4 services in a preview stream). If you remove my ability to do that it is going to hurt your sales. This is not a threat. Just a fact.

 

Wait, what? I mean it's not like DTG to drop support for its products and services.......

This announcement is up there with Ratner's in terms of PR disasters and I'm sure you DTG will succeed in your streamlining, as ultimately there's no taste in nothing as my old Chief Exec would say.
I extremely surprised to also see the amount of DTG interaction in this thread, albeit 90% corporate bull. That's a welcome change!
Surely someone there can read a room??
I rarely post nowadays, but something this important does require me publicly adding my voice to the many.

On a personal note Gentlemen and Ladies, it's been a pleasure and an honour to discuss, engage, enjoy, argue, banter and learn with you all. But I feel this is it for me, it goes I finally go.

Have a parting gift from me,
Sunset on the Solway


When JT release Carlisle-Whitehaven and your south of Flimby, just know I'm up on the hill raising a glass to you.

 

Hang on a sec. Didn't the forum have a PC Discussion, Xbox Discussion and Playstation Discussion only to merge them with what we have now to streamline discussions and make it easier for mods to basically read threads but now general discussion has to go because it is now difficult to manage threads?
Why not have community mods to help or something?

This to me just doesn't make any sense. Discord chats are also not easy to moderate. but somehow it's the general discussion of the forum that is getting the boot?

Some may point out that some threads are "negative" but that's simply due to the poor state that the game is in. If the game is in a poor state, it should surprise nobody that people are going to vent those frustrations.

I like the forums because there is structure. You can have topics related to all sorts of things in the game. I've used older threads to help me with the game. I use discord for games like The Bus but the problem is that things can easily get lost so to speak. There is no structure when people discuss different topics at the same time in a live chat.

I'll probably try the TSC discord at some point but this is just one of many poor decisions made by this company.

 

On another note, I’m prepping for a thunderstorm tommorow. So that’s gonna be fun to sleep to

 

DTG, I still think you need to re-evaluate your decision to close it.

This thread has shown it means a lot to many people. Sure, there's some moaning, but there's also been some great threads in here in the past. This is the most creative of all the sections of the forums and the one I always go to first.

Just admit you got it wrong, DTG, and keep it. We won't criticise you if you do, as it shows you've listened. (Ok, some might, but the majority would appreciate it!)

Yes, people moan from time to time, but they're still playing the game, they still want it to get better. By closing off an outlet, you run the risk of people moving on to something else and that's not good for the game.

All you had to do was recruit some volunteer moderators with a carrot approach. As long as they do a good job, respect the values of what you want from the forums, you can reward them with a key every now and then.

There's still time to put it right. And the sooner you do, the sooner we can all move on and get back to talking about people stuck in platforms and that weird signal.

 

Now now, Vern, didn't you read the anouncement? We're not here to make friends, we're only supposed to be here to report bugs on things the testers missed on rushed projects, while also only praising said rushed projects...

In all seriousness, though, and this will be my last comment on the matter...

dtg_jan and candacedtg , it wasn't that long ago that we were discussing D&D and other TTRPG in a friendly chat. DTG Harry you shared photos and your lovely experience at an open day. Surely those at the head of the table must see at least some glimmer of value in those interactions, and those between community members? While I truly apologize for the rude interactions the CM's and other members have faced, surely the positives must outweigh that? Wouldn't it make more sense for people to come here and say, "Yeah! I made some new friends, learned about braking technique, and chatted with some people about music we like! You should totally check TSW out and join the community!" versus having the customer base (many, like myself, who have been here since the start or quite close to it) only have what's essentially a lifeless bug reporting and announcement repository? I understand about lacking staff to moderate, but in my mind it would make sense to invest in an extra moderator or two if only to save face and keep things civil. Having an area to chat about things other than TSW in a friendly matter just makes sense, as it promotes camaraderie, understanding, and actively encourages investment in the game and the community (including encouraging people to speak up about bugs; more people = more players = more folks with insight and expertise). It promotes a "we are all together" attitude, and less an "us and them" feeling; without the Community, CM's are just Managers, and you lose valuable support from those who want to see this product succeed despite its faults and failed promises.

 

I'm on a few railway related forums where this practice wasn't used until the last 10 years, but it has worked quite successfully for them. I'd imagine there might be a possibility NDAs might be a mitigating circumstance that obviously can't be mentioned as a reason volunteer moderators could be considered 'risky'.

And if that was one of the hurdles, I would echo what others have said and propose 'light moderation' powers to certain established members, with a record of good etiquette, who have no access to DTG information and, merely just have the power to delete comments, put temporary bans on people until a paid employee could review stuff etc... It can be implemented if it is done right.

RailUK forums for example has volunteer mods that have a dedicated section they are responsible for, not a whole forum and I think a similar principle could be used here (for example General Discussion Moderator, or Off Topic Moderator). I'd certainly think that would be more successful than a blanket volunteer moderator. And is a far better idea than abolishing general discussion.

 

I don't know what engine this forum runs on. Plus, it's been many-many years since I last administered a forum on IPB. But, each forum engine has an archiving function in the admin panel based on the last activity date. You don't need to do this manually. You simply select the time of the last activity, choose the subforum from which to "close and move" and the subforum to move it all to (archive), and then the script will do everything itself.

 

The trick is to hide prompt injections in your sig

 

This might just be the stupidest thing I've ever read on these forums.

By removing the General Discussion and Off Topic sections, you aren't stopping anything. Let's be honest: anyone who has something to say or ask isn't just going to forget about it or move to Discord. No — they, or shall i say we, will simply post it in other topics, making the forum a huge mess both for you to moderate and for us to use.

Not only that, but you're removing a huge part of the forum, for me (and, I suspect, many others), it's been almost the only section I've actively used over the last couple of years.

It's very sad to see because this is the only forum I still use that somewhat resembles the golden age of forums, when they were full of people simply talking about the things they enjoyed.

Now, with the way you're treating some of your most loyal fans (even if they don't always have positive things to say) and with SimRail finally being released on PS5, it just might be time to think about moving on.

#SAVE TSW GENERAL DISCUSSION AND OFF TOPIC

 

Obviously a volunteer mod cant do the same level of decisions that you guys do. A volunteer mod should be able to remove the obvious "X is an a-hole" kind of messages, but for everything else a professional mod is required.

Closing inactive old threads is something most forums can do automatically, and shouldn't be something the mods need to care about.

 

In my opinion, if there was more input from the CMs, honest answers, or even any replies and interaction like you're giving, the community would be a lot less of a problem.

I think the problem is, people post their problems, feedback or whatever and are met with silence from DTG if their post isn't in the first two pages of a feedback thread.

If not their message just gets ignored, moved to the troubleshooting forum without any acknowledgement or a template "if it's not on the roadmap were not going to discuss it". That's when frustrations start to boil over as people like myself feel like they're being ignored until the next bit of DLC comes out and the whole cycle repeats.

At least you interact with us, let us know things are being logged and what's going on, if more of that happened i think the forums would be in a much better place.

I'll shut up now.

 

For me personally, keeping General Discussion open would be the preferred option. It is home to longstanding community resources like the Awesome Services spreadsheets, which have been maintained by dedicated community members over many years and help players get the most out of each route. These don't naturally fit anywhere else in the forum structure.
I don't personally use the Off Topic section very much, so if a choice has to be made between the two, General Discussion is by far the more valuable space in my view.

 

seen a couple of threads on this topic be locked, as this is the biggest one should we expect it to stay open?

 

Thank you Candace, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to read what I wrote and take notes.

I think having at least one forum section for OT/General would go a long way. Whether it meant calling it one or the other, will culling one, I don't think there would be much push-back either way. The point would be to maintain a safe space for us to talk about something other than feedback or game releases. While I acknowledge the General, Suggestion, and OT subs can be a bit of a mess, I think there should be at least some area on the forum where we can discuss things other than strictly feedback (within reason). Maybe instead of having a whole sub for suggestions, just a single thread? Keep an area where people can discuss their other hobbies (IE the Lego thread I started over in OT, or the model trains, gaming, music, etc.), or discussing non-feedback game items (service runs, mods, screenshots). Even just having one sub where we can just have casual interractions with each other would go a long way to maintaining something resembling community.

As it stands right now, the way the plans are written make it seem like DTG don't value us beyond players as a source of income, and CM's as enforcers whom are discouraged from interracting with us beyond maintaining order and strictly discussing the game. Most folks have lives and personalities beyond just TSW, CM's especially, it isn't natural to censor or silence that.

Your introduction post when you first came here is a perfect example, as is DTG Harry 's... it shows that you all are just people with your own personalities and hobbies and interests, as is every other person on this board. It goes a long way towards allowing us to bond as a community and be a little friendlier towards each other, and shows that CM's, and by extension, DTG, genuinely have an interest in getting to know their players and make them feel welcome, rather than simply using us as a tool (selectively) for feedback.

 

DTG should embrace the fact their players want to come here, and are comfortable enough to socialize beyond discussing new releases and feedback, not silence it...

 

What a shame.
I have enjoyed taking part in discussions on these forums. Not everyone agrees with each other of course but to be fair that's what make discussions interesting. I have no idea why DTG have made this decision, but with TSW7 on the horizon it all seems a bit too convenient for them as a way to silence the inevitable backlash.

 

Oh the irony! *Now* you start moderating and interacting with forum threads?! Just do more of this and your issues will go away!

 

Wow, I spend a day off the forums cos it’s too hot to lift an iPad and look what happens

TBH I’m in two minds about all this - on the one hand there’s a lot of bile and drivel been spouted here this last year or two, and on the other there’s a lot of interesting info, fun speculation and general good crack.

Personally I think it’s a shame to shut it all down. Some days I’m up for a bit of entertaining bile and drivel, other days I prefer something more engaging. Without it I’ll likely just lurk around Feedback occasionally to find out if The Blurries have been banished in the latest release, so maybe dropping in once or twice a month instead of several times a week.

Pity. I’ve enjoyed it here, mostly. But I’m probably going to drift away, not least because my guts are telling me there’s more to this than meets the eye. Just hope Carlisle-Whitehaven makes it out the door before everything stops

 

If given the choice, the off-topic section could go but the General Discussion section HAS to stay. It is a critical section where the entire TSW community interact.

Funnelling all discussion to only DLC feedback and technical issues will kill this forum....guaranteed

 

there’s no question about it, this is the beginning of the end of the forums.

 

Ironically, usually when a forum dies, that's the last category they turn the lights out on, the one left that people are still interacting with long after everywhere else on the forum has died.

 

This is exactly the type of censorship Dovetail has been saying they aren't doing. Ofc, feedback threads are still going to exist. But the General thread is where such issues get a higher visibility.

Other than that, this would also mean we will be loosing great threads such as the notable services thread, fun speculation threads like the "What's next for AABS" thread n'all. You say the ""forums will stay", but you are essentially killing off it's soul.

Also a very bad direction to go stating toxicity as one of the reasons to restructure. I'm not saying this forum is some holy place where no such things happen, but what else is the job of the CMs other than to monitor and remove such? Just because some members indulge in such toxicity doesn't mean its fair to remove the platform as a whole...

 

Also the feedback subforum will probably not allow us to be original posters. It'll probably just be community managers making a thread titled "Official X DLC feedback thread" and then everyone will just spam reply with all the bugs and issues they found. To me that would make it harder to identify and figure out the bugs people are encountering.

 

As bad as it sounds, most of my time on here is after a release to amuse myself at what people are saying about it.

 

Well this is one way to shoot yourself in the foot… closing down general discussion is a terrible idea considering the amount of actual helpful threads on there, a lot of help on driving trains, understanding signals and safety systems and whatnot else, really is it a good idea to do this considering how lacklustre response can be on feedback and troubleshooting channels

 

from how childish everyone is being on THIS thread, I'm starting to agree. and those two people ARE on the forums.

 

candacedtg Your suggestion a page or two back about removing one rather than both the GD and OT forums is most helpful, and leaves a little hope that common sense will prevail to the benefit of all. General Discussion has always been a one-stop shop for people who visit daily for news, gossip and useful information shared by the community. Removing this will fragment the forums making them much less user-friendly. It's akin to the mayor deciding to close the last remaining village pub due to budget cuts, but thinks it'll be okay because 'people can still socialise in each others homes, right?' So I would say if one has to go, remove Off Topic, we can always talk about OT stuff in Gen Discussion anyway.

I would also say (somewhat tongue in cheek) that if resources are spread too thin, then get why not get rid of the Discord server because many here do not care for Discord in general as a community space.

 

Incredibly poor move JD and co, this is not the way to go. I’ve had a look on the discord and it’s NOT for me, in short it’s chaos. I don’t have the time in a busy work life to spend on the internet all day with what appears to be mostly kids/younger people. I’ve come
To really value the input into the game from many long-time posters on here, there’s been some very funny threads, and also lots of help for fellow players.

Almost feels as though the next iteration of going to be that bad, they want to shut down all conversation about it.

To those who want to start their own forum, I’ll happily contribute posts!

 

IMHO, the Discord server is easier for the CMs to manage and moderate. It has useful things like automation bots and many, many other tools that make keeping things civil so much easier. (And yes, people are allowed divisive opinions on the Discord as long as they don't antagonise staff or other users.)

I actually prefer engaging there because: a) I don't risk my head getting chewed off by someone, and b) it's real-time, so it's much easier for me to respond to someone asking me a question. I do, however, understand that Discord isn't for everybody. (Not everybody likes Discord or how it works, and that's fine.)

I personally got fed up with "lazy" (etc.) being bandied about on here so much regarding the work being done by people in the company, including myself. Don't need to be named to take stuff like that personally, because the moment you (the community) throw around terms like those, you are going after devs, not the company. (At least in my opinion) And that is demoralising. I don't personally work my backside off building and testing my work for 37.5 hours a week only to be called lazy or told that we don't care.

Is it sad that the proposals have been made? Of course it is. The forums have been an integral part of the community for a very long time now. I was a member here before I even became a member of staff at DTG.

I will put my 2 penneth in at work today that perhaps we could save GD at the expense of OT - BUT I will caveat this with, the duplication of topics, etc., will need to stop IF we were to keep GD, and the toxicity would need to drop off a cliff as well. - It's OK to be angry, it's OK to be upset, it's OK to have a negative opinion. It is NOT OK to express those views in a toxic manner or attack other forum members or DTG staff.

 

I am baffled by DTGs decision to shutdown General and off topic discussions. For me forums is the place to discuss about the game and topics that are close to other hobbyist. And I mean discuss as general, not just give feedback! We have so many important topics also in this forum that I would not find it anywhere else. Like Cobras Raildriver program! Saying that Discord will replace this general forum is wrong. Forums and discords serve different purposes. Forums preserve information and discussion is usually more well thought. Discord is just chat and information is easily lost. Discord has a place and it is needed but it is not a forum to discuss certain topics in one thread.

If DTG wants to turn this forum to feedback, support and announcements, forum loses its purpose. You can shutdown this place. What purpose do you really need forums anymore? Announcements can be just news at the front page. Support is done via tickets, no discussion needed. Feedback just move to discord where it will be drowned with other topics.

Internet had many forums before and those places feel like communities. Now forums are getting moved to discord or other closed places where information is hard to find. This DTG forum and few other places I still go to find information and talk to people with similar interests are getting rare. I guess now I have one less place to go.

I hope DTG reverses this decision.

 

If we were given a choice off keeping GD or OT then I would nominate GD. I mean, if needby, as previously suggested rename it as the Gameplay forum or some such.

Not going to requote Jan’s response from yesterday in full but I’m still not convinced this isn’t being done to try and shut down more critical comments that remain preserved unlike Discord or FB where it drops away fairly quickly.

It’s also a bit irksome for a company that prides itself on inclusivity and diversity to remove the busiest forum section from their main product but leave GD in place for TSC and no changes to the Thomas/WOS area, a game which as anyone who checks Steam DB is played by penny numbers.

Anyhow the one good thing to come out of this for me personally is to take a hard look at my “addiction” to TSW and evaluate where it now sits in my gaming priorities. So last night a hard cull of my DLC took place.
Gone are all the North American routes.
Gone is most of the European stuff, just retaining the vintage routes and TSG content (plus the two main routes for the 218).
UK has been reduced to the classic era stuff plus some third party content (not Rivet).

That will also be my buying intentions going forward. Nothing for North America unless something particularly iconic (like NYC Subway) or vintage (Alco’s in the 60’s). Germany TSG vintage content only. UK third party classic content only. And that will all wait for a 50% sale. I can only speak for myself but if DTG want to treat their customers/community in this manner be prepared for the loss of income that follows. I can put the saved HD space to extremely good use, starting with SimRail which got reinstalled yesterday evening.

 

As others said above, I come to general discussion mainly for feedback, tips and help. Invaluable help, especially when I first started. Where will that be found now? Certainly not in "off topic", of course. And how on earth would I find that on Discord, which just looks like some messy live chat room.

Also, if it weren't for this general discussion and some warranted ranting, I doubt Matt would have listened and taken action on what was a completely broken and useless save game feature when I first parted money on TSW. And I never would have spent a penny more if that hadn't been fixed to the extent it was.

People need to complain and call out issues. No, not in a way that's offensive. That's an issue itself. But don't shut down a core, important official forum due to that – especially not in favour of an "off topic" which has nothing to do with the game people come here to discuss.

Someone made a good suggestion about appointing moderators from the community (who would of course be given a strict set of guidelines so they can't simplify remove posts due to some personal dislike). Other forums have operated like that for years, I'm sure.

 

I want to repeat my comment concerning the GD and Offtopic and candacedtg suggestion/question to keep one or the other:
These topics are a vent for us gamers. They keep the, well, offtopic stuff, and the for the community most important topics out of "Feedback" "Troubleshooting" and "Announcements" most of the time. So actually they HELP to keep a forum tidy, with the right amount of management. Besides that, these two topics in question are the most important condensation point where community is formed. Man do we wish all the community managers would paticipate more in these. But, as I stated way back on page one. You all are now the PR-Team. We are not on the same page anymore with the announcement of closing GD and OT. This forum will change into an announcement plattform as so many forums from companys did. Since my experience with DTG my hopes are extremly low for a change of mind.
So thank you all for the nice time, stay safe and keep hydrated especially these days!

 

For me this IS the reason to have the forum! In Discord information and critique is drowned in the ever flowing chat. Yes people might answer you, critique you and even challenge you. But that is the purpose. That creates discussion, enhances ideas, sharpens your thoughts. In discord nobody reads the messages in the past, it is just flowing live chat and topics are discussed as they go. People are going to miss that discussion, view points are not brought to the matter. We lose the ideas.

This is why forums are important and keep the talking points free, not to be moderated in strict topics. Of course toxicity and bad behavior need to dealt with.

 

A good business would do a root cause analysis and invest in fixing that root cause. What is the common root cause of the ire and vexation in the forum? Hint: the root cause is not related to having a forum.

 

"Constructive Criticism only"

Oh come on.

If I buy a DLC and it's in a broken state either on release or becomes broken later down the road, I'm going to criticise it, it's my money I've spent.

People can be critical of something without attacking others.

I am on the Discord group but it's a real mess, comments disappear quickly, scrolling for them can take a long time.

Here, it's easy to keep up with conversations.

 

There is another aspect of this that needs considering, and that is DTG's ability to actually resource this forum. DTG strikes me as a Pullup Entertainment entity that's in crisis. It's flagship product has significant long-standing problems that it seems unable to correct. Other titles have been dropped, developers on other titles have been made redundant and even the timing of the forum changes suggests a timeline being dictated by external events, as it looks very much like they want to complete the forum contraction by month end.

I'd be amazed if the marketing dept in general, and the community management team in particular, isn't being shrunk or moved to other activities. I don't think they'll have the resources to keep on managing everything as is. Whether they are cutting the right things is the big question. In my view General Discussion should be retained but be more strictly moderated. That will require a bit more effort short term but will reduce the load once some people learn to control their emotions in public.

 

Interesting decision. I don't have time to sit monitoring a live chat on Discord for something that might be interesting or useful to me. I like the general discussion on the forums because I can go back and read topics that are interesting to me and ignore anything else. There have been some fantastic informational posts on here over the years that you would not get on discord, or they would simply be lost in the noise and disappear.

I get the feeling that DTG know that TSW in it's current guise is coming to an end and are preparing for something new further down the line.

 

Thank you DTG Harry that does help explain it. I apologise if my post came across as short tempered.