General Discussion Has Survived (just)

But on the other hand we are being told you are taking away the whole dish because you can no longer remove only the extra seasoning...

 

maybe a good thing to get the general temper a bit down would be to elaborate more on where the "general discussion" topics are going to shift, like in which section will those topics be in, since they arent exactly the same as feedback (at least not always)

otherwise, personally I am fine, I am sure there will be space to discuss things here, just different location

 

something about if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. people clearly aren’t willing to try to give it a go, because we’re relatively happy with how things are at the moment, despite the increased toxicity in recent months. besides, where will we give feedback to the changes once this subforum is gone?

 

This thread has seen more responses from Candace, Alex, Harry and Jan than I've seen in any of the "feedback" threads for months on end. And that's the problem. Either the CM team just don't get support from the team to deliver back to the community factual responses and timely updates, or DTG train colleagues to try not to engage with players as to not get drawn into actually having to provide technical answers. It's 100% obvious that the entire team comes out to market and celebrate new DLC, then they run off and hide. [I could pull up multiple threads at this point but that wouldn't be fair on any particular CM].

DTG ask to be held account and actively want feedback good or bad, but when players vent frustrations the DTG line is to ignore or publish some wishy washy everyone is to blame but no one is to blame, it will never happen again, apart from the last time and the next time and we listen definitely (class 90 response) but then role out the same bug juicy carrot with different terminology to convince players that the same issues are being fixed, when it seems DTG cannot do so.

In TSW5 is was "Core Issues" - those pesky little varments, they must be someone else's fault.
in TSW6 its "Optimisations" - everyone is working hard, we just discovered these after so many years.

We have so many CM but so little. That's an inherent DTG problem.

 

that’s fair enough, i think most of us would be willing to give it a go but i don’t see how it’ll make things easier for us as a community in the long run

 

Ironically, in that analogy, any time I am in a restaurant and it turns out a member of my party has a problem with a particular ingredient, they DO take away the dish, but the thing is, they replace it free of charge with something more to the person's liking.

 

I'm certainly not willing to give the chances a go. Removall of the biggest and most used part of the forum can't have anything but negative effects on the community as a whole. It stifles discussion. All one has to do is scroll through and see threads that don't really fit anywhere else. What use is a forum if we, as users can only make threads relating to either suggestions or issues and troubleshooting?

Look at some of the more popular threads. Awesome service mode runs. Doesn't fit anywhere else. That thread that popped up a few days ago about linked journeys, doesn’t fit anywhere else. I even saw one CM say it could go in suggestions...? It's not a suggestion for future add ons at all? What? I don't understand that logic at all. Monthly masteries thread could at a push be moved to player troubleshooting and issues, because it often is people reporting that masteries are broken, but even then, that isn't the only thing it's used for. People use it to try to guess what the challenges may be, and inform others on what the challenges are. The fact that it has remained in general discussion for this long also implies that the moderators and CMs believe it belongs there.

What about the Jetwash enhancements and the weather/annotation app threads? I've never interacted with those threads, as a console user, but they're pretty popular, but what other section do they fit in?

 

This would be the sensible outcome. For too long, GD has been cluttered with duplicate topics because some people insist on starting their own thread when others exist, or giving feedback in GD rather than the actual feedback threads. Clamping down on duplicate threads in the Suggestions sub-forum wouldn't go amiss either; we've been told quality over quantity, but a 'the more, the merrier' attitude seems to exist which hasn't been squashed in a way it has been on Discord.

Equally, though, DTG need to stop duplicating threads themselves in the Dovetail Live Article Discussion sub-forum.

 

Something needs to be done about useless, one line suggestions as well, imo

 

Nowhere more so than Preston to Crewe where we had the ongoing thread in GD, the It’s Out Now thread in Dovetail Live then the route specific thread in the Feedback Forum. Where might I add, the mods were efficiently moving anything they deemed not directly as feedback to guess where - oh yes, the thread in GD.

Also seems to have spread to the official Facebook page. Announcement about release of the HIS GP60 pack to which I commented I won’t be buying as a result of of the Forum changes (and other concerns/not really of interest) but it appears to have been removed. So much for, use our other social media outlets to discuss the game in general. George Orwell could write a book about it… DTG thought control alive and kicking. Really making me more and more inclined to delete the whole game and try to forget it even existed.

 

Well benefit of the doubt then, as FB does have a habit of burying comments. Which is exactly why it is no substitute for a good, decent, emergent and structured forum thread.

 

What does this actually look like though? You've just said that the GD is being removed alongside the OT. Is this a place where DTG are going to make official discussion threads for content? What about when the community have come up with some great threads: Steam a realistic challenge, connected journeys, Mastery. These sorts of threads need to be encouraged as they keep the game fresh.

Again I'm all for stricter moderation. Protect the staff and the community. Please it does need it. I'm just not convinced cutting out general discussion and off topic posts are the way to do it.

Is there a way of using an approval system for new threads? So we don't get duplicates or needless threads posted? The GD and OT sections don't get that many new threads every day so can you moderate thread creation against a list of guidelines?

There has to be some way to allow community discussion in a healthier environment. Because so far I haven't read anything about the changes which has made me think okay I'll give it a go?

 

I think some of the extra "seasoning" comes with frustration. It is pretty frustrating to report same scenario is broken after many years with no fixes. And when this happens time and time again, people will get frustrated because they don't see the change. And now I think many of us see this new DTG move to sweep problems under the rug and call it. You wont be getting feedback as much as you did before the forum changes, but scenarios will still have game breaking bugs they are just not reported anymore.

After the time people will vote with their wallets and DTG is wondering how come people don't buy the content we don't even have bugs anymore!

 

This forum is the place where i feel connected with a community who share the same niche hobby.

It is this place that makes me feel connected to Train Sim World.
The trainsim community is more than just a game.

It feels like DTG is taking my TSW family away, it makes me sad.

After all these years it feels like a slap in the face.

I dont like discord it is chaotic

Thanks everyone for the nice years and
Au revoir

 

I believe Jan stated they could go in Suggestions which seems more than a little barmy for general gameplay threads. And yes, worth repeating if anything should go should be the Suggestions forum. Most (not all) either dupes, poorly written, one liners or an essay to rival War And Peace. None of which stand a cat in hell’s chance of ever getting made.

 

"give it a go"
Give what a go? Once the open discussion part is removed, it's gone for good along with probably 90% of user interest. Little more left than a glorified bug report ticket system. There won't be much more but a dying husk of a once active forum to "give a go" at.

There's still time to walk back and pretend it was an out of season april fool's joke, btw.

 

There is a complete feedback forum. If people don't post in that due to some petulance, "well DTG took my toys away" attitude, then that is on that individual person.

I wonder how many of the "I'm not playing anymore" brigade will be buying DLC in the future, most I suspect.

 

Given a choice, yes the Discord is the greater misuse of resources.

 

Yes there is! But if people keep posting, things don't get fixed, what is the point of that forum? People will try to voice their concerns on some other place where is more discussion. Keep ignoring the voices and you will see the consequences.

And I don't think it is "some petulance" for DTG. People actually care about the game and the content. They just want to make it better or you know not crash every time at the same place.

For this day I have not be able to run "international rescue" scenario. And that is little bit frustrating.

 

Not sure why the Forum isn't just volunteer moderated anyway.

 

Well I can't see why starting a thread in general discussion is more likely to get something fixed than in a thread designed for players to leave feedback.

 

I honestly don't see "too much discussion" as a big issue. If someone posts a one-line post and it disappears from no responses, it's not a problem. The only issue would be behavior on the forum, not "too many posts." That's literally what a discussion forum is for. Sounds like people taking on too much by micromanaging. As long as the content doesn't violate community standards, just leave it.

People will choose what to post on and what to ignore.

 

I agree. No need for insults or illegal websites. However, when 99% are NOT doing that, punishing the 99% who have no ability to police the 1% seems a bit penial. Now if you had the forum policed by volunteer community mods for rule violations, then there wouldn't be a huge workload on the DTG staff.

I figured that was already a thing all these years that you'd been mobilizing your huge passionate fan base for that and it wasn't paid full timers doing this. Kind of surprised that this resources isn't being used.

 

Because the "Feedback" threads aren't created by players.

That's the problem.

 

Is it? They are the threads which are apparently monitored for issues.

Who monitors a thread on the general discussion forum, especially when it gets muddied by arguments or disagreements?

 

Out of interest, what happened to the additional forum moderators that were selected from the community to support the forum day to day running .?

 

yeah, especially when being polite literally doesnt cost anything or require exceptional effort

 

You are making an entirely different point than mine.
I'm not saying it's "more likely to be fixed" in Discussion.

I'm saying Feedback forums won't provide feedback on things that DTG doesn't already know about. Players can't create threads in Feedback, so how would DTG know what they don't know? And they only create Feedback threads on DLC...not on anything specific to the core or game in general.

If I have a general game issue, DTG doesn't know about it, I can't TELL them about it since I can't create a thread.

If it gets brought up in GD, then it's at least a chance to tell someone because you CAN make a thread, and it's not tied to something else or told "well that doesn't belong here." The beauty of GD is that you can post anything, even if it doesn't "fit" into a box created by DTG.

If it has to be moved to that section (like suggestions or bug report) then that's easy enough to do. However, the thread exists...whereas you can't make a feedback thread so many things would never be known about at all.

That's what GD is for.

Not that it's "more effective" but that it catches things that wouldn't exist or be known.

That and it's where COMMUNITY exists. Where would the "awesome services" thread go otherwise? Where would general opinion polls go? Or any other general community interaction not tied to a specific DLC?

At best you can say "Off Topic" but.... it's not "off topic" since much of it is about the game still and then you just have General Discussion with a different name. Off Topic is in particular for non-TSW stuff. GD has a unique place and role.

 

It’s not just that, but there have been pretty significant changes to routes that so-happened to be heavily discussed in GD. Notably the TSW2 version of SEHS received lots of discussion & received seldom seen updates between preview & release.

WCMLS was another hot topic in GD, notably one of few routes that got consistent large updates.

The feedback threads of course serve their use as they are, but typically those have always been more technically oriented where players rightly put the genuinely critical issues, however the creative side of feedback more often than not comes from GD.

Also, unless they plan to change when they put discussion articles for specific content up, we’ve always had the community discussion posts surrounding known routes - often months before a DTG post we can comment on is posted.

Those points specifically are where my main issue is with this decision, I’d like to be able to discuss a route without having to converse around bug reports, I’d also like to leave my bug reports without the thread being filled with discussion. Removing GD is going to absolutely tank any excitement about inbound content as you’ll have to wait until DTG want to make that post, which as above happens much much later after it’s become known.

 

Who here would be willing to volunteer as moderators if asked? I'm pretty sure that'd be the next objection "we can't find anyone to help with the workload?" I'd do it if pushed, but I think there are far better people here with a better temperament for it =-)

 

And closing down the general forum section will help in what way? It's not like that people who cannot be bothered with using the forum search functionality will be bothered not placing their repretitive topic into another forum section, if the general section is not there....

Anyway, this whole post reads... weird to me... In way it's like a dev saying that he/she spends too much time fixing bugs, as an explanation for why the company he/she works for is reducing the ability of people to report bugs...

It's not like you, candacedtg, is clamping down on the forum, becasue it's too much work for you... This is not your personal forum, or something where you dedicate your free time into (if you do... you realy shouldn't ).. It is a company ran forum, and I imagine that all those points you're presenting here to us, were also presented to those people that hold the reigns...

And the decision, of DTG, was that the benefits of having an active community forum is not worth the investment it takes to have that forum moderated. You can try to sugar-coat it with buzzwords like 'strealime', 'effectivity'..etc, or try to play the empathy card. But it's a company business decision.

And yes, feedbacks section, creative section..etc will stay open, but you must be aware that, with this decision, the volume of people visiting this forums will decrease, thus the activity also in those sections will take a dive. Because lowering the active userbase is, I feel, the only way how to decrease the load on the moderators.

 

It's quite clear to see the reason DTG are doing this to stop general customer criticism

There is another way this can be achieved and we, not DTG, will be in control of

Stop being customers of DTG

We have to face facts DTG are an awful company with poor practices in place to try to cover up that fact.

I mean seriously, they said on the last roadmap stream that they have mitigated blurry textures with products going forward. That statement was proved to be a lie within 24hrs with the release of Trent Valley

Time to put the sword to this company by closing our wallets. It's the only way things will change

 

That's a great point. Like the community discussion of the Class 70 or the Crewe to Preston route. I THINK that's useful to DTG and Devs to point out any potential issues and expectations early before release. After can be too late. Can also judge interest as well.
I KNOW it's a great advantage to the community to discuss it. If everything is after the fact, that's often too late to be useful.

Even outside of the DLC, just people pointing to an interest in ECML routes (kind of tired of the WCML) or wanting a Class 66 alternative... those aren't things that are related to a specific DLC. More a "general" game thing.

 

Fair enough I was referring to someone taking about feedback for specific DLC, or I thought I was!

I don't want to see this forum closed any more than you do.

Whether it turns out to be a bad thing then only time will tell.

Personally I will miss a lot of the nice discussion but won't miss the unpleasantness. I am sure there will be somewhere else to congregate.

 

Yes GD is basically the only place for particular points of feedback too, quite a lot of discussion happens around core gameplay elements, from suspension to route art & from gen8 discussion to route era being skewed in one direction. A lot of points don’t fit into the box of singular DLC feedback posts.

The other problem is how often outstanding issues within 3P routes are immediately rebutted by them as a core problem & not relevant to their feedback. Given how much 3P content there is now & how little first party stuff gets released, where will that feedback actually go & have something done with?

 

An active fanbase is its own blessing and curse.
While the crowd can get wild, it's also their greatest marketing tool, not because of the official announcements, but because people engage with the "community" and get excited about the game, sharing their experiences.

I know I would not have gotten far into TSW without the diverse community here that were super helpful and encouraging. It it were just a list of DLC release articles, I wouldn't have gotten so deep into the game or bought nearly as much. That's for me what has set TSW apart from a lot of other games I've stopped playing.

Taking the activity away from the active fanbase sterilizes it and will cause traffic here to plummet. As a byproduct, there won't be many eyeballs to see those DLC press releases and thus buy more content. Again, I'm not making any threats.... just observing that it's happened to other games as a byproduct of alienating the fanbase. It's not so much a "boycott" as just drifting away to somewhere else that has an active community.

Right now the "marketing" and "tech support/playtesting" parts of this forum are piggybacking on the huge draw of the General Discussion community. It's what brings eyeballs to the forum. If people get bored and lose interest, they won't see stuff you want to sell either. It's basically free advertising to a willing audience that yes takes some work to manage, but also is a huge source of income.

When those "creators" (youtube,twitch, social media) refer to "discussion on the forums" about something and that gets out to their fans watching reviews of TSW....that's THIS forum in large part. That's more often than not the GD part.

 

I just popped over to the Discord "discussion" section to give it another go. It's the equivalent of walking into a room and everyone is in the middle of a conversation, or several conversations over the top of each other, no idea what's going on – so I walked back out and quietly shut the door behind me.

 

Thinking this over more, I guess I can sort-of understand the logic behind trying to keep discussions relevant and on-topic, and trying to control the proliferation of multiple threads about the same subject. I can even sort-of understand the ideas behind trying to limit/cull any fire-stokey echo-chamber moanfests where people just call each other names and descend into typical internet nastiness.

What I don't understand is the complete blanket ban of user-started threads, which is what GD is all about. I come here to stumble over things I didn't know about, news I missed, bugs and general railway crack. If that goes then this place is very much diminished - the good content here far outweighs the trolls and muppets.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems the intention going forward is only to allow us to discuss defined topics - announcements, DLC feedback etc - there'll be plenty of "it's the end of TSW" and "fix the frappin blurries already"-type comments to police in those, let alone all the other spouts that immediately crop up (multiple times!) whenever anything new happens in TSW. But where do we discuss other stuff without it getting booted out as "off topic"???

My suggestion is to allow us to submit a new thread for discussion, but it has to be approved before it is made public...?

 

That describes my feeling of Discord as well, and it is exactly why I don't like it. Maybe Discord is fine for the young people who want everything right now and get restless if they can't get the answer they want within two minutes of asking. For me, it's a hopeless mess.

The old fashioned forums like this are far more easier to use, browse and find information from. I have gotten wealth of information from here, anything from gameplay tips to accounts from people who either have or still are working in real world railways and offering their insights. As far as I can see, there is no way for the Feedback and Troubleshooting forums alone to replace that, unless their scope is reviewed and broadened accordingly (which would in turn make them more like a general discussion forum anyway).

 

Easier to search old threads too for answers.
Plus they come up on google.

 

Discord is just IRC with a fresh paintcoat(yes, I'm that old ).
Great chatting tool, terrible tool for having persistent discussion that also builds a knowledge base of the community.

 

Yep, it's an absolute mess, I tried it a couple of times but I just can't keep up with it, the thing is absolute [EDIT - Language]. and I won't be going back for a third time.