General Discussion Has Survived (just)

I am baffled by DTGs decision to shutdown General and off topic discussions. For me forums is the place to discuss about the game and topics that are close to other hobbyist. And I mean discuss as general, not just give feedback! We have so many important topics also in this forum that I would not find it anywhere else. Like Cobras Raildriver program! Saying that Discord will replace this general forum is wrong. Forums and discords serve different purposes. Forums preserve information and discussion is usually more well thought. Discord is just chat and information is easily lost. Discord has a place and it is needed but it is not a forum to discuss certain topics in one thread.

If DTG wants to turn this forum to feedback, support and announcements, forum loses its purpose. You can shutdown this place. What purpose do you really need forums anymore? Announcements can be just news at the front page. Support is done via tickets, no discussion needed. Feedback just move to discord where it will be drowned with other topics.

Internet had many forums before and those places feel like communities. Now forums are getting moved to discord or other closed places where information is hard to find. This DTG forum and few other places I still go to find information and talk to people with similar interests are getting rare. I guess now I have one less place to go.

I hope DTG reverses this decision.

 

If we were given a choice off keeping GD or OT then I would nominate GD. I mean, if needby, as previously suggested rename it as the Gameplay forum or some such.

Not going to requote Jan’s response from yesterday in full but I’m still not convinced this isn’t being done to try and shut down more critical comments that remain preserved unlike Discord or FB where it drops away fairly quickly.

It’s also a bit irksome for a company that prides itself on inclusivity and diversity to remove the busiest forum section from their main product but leave GD in place for TSC and no changes to the Thomas/WOS area, a game which as anyone who checks Steam DB is played by penny numbers.

Anyhow the one good thing to come out of this for me personally is to take a hard look at my “addiction” to TSW and evaluate where it now sits in my gaming priorities. So last night a hard cull of my DLC took place.
Gone are all the North American routes.
Gone is most of the European stuff, just retaining the vintage routes and TSG content (plus the two main routes for the 218).
UK has been reduced to the classic era stuff plus some third party content (not Rivet).

That will also be my buying intentions going forward. Nothing for North America unless something particularly iconic (like NYC Subway) or vintage (Alco’s in the 60’s). Germany TSG vintage content only. UK third party classic content only. And that will all wait for a 50% sale. I can only speak for myself but if DTG want to treat their customers/community in this manner be prepared for the loss of income that follows. I can put the saved HD space to extremely good use, starting with SimRail which got reinstalled yesterday evening.

 

As others said above, I come to general discussion mainly for feedback, tips and help. Invaluable help, especially when I first started. Where will that be found now? Certainly not in "off topic", of course. And how on earth would I find that on Discord, which just looks like some messy live chat room.

Also, if it weren't for this general discussion and some warranted ranting, I doubt Matt would have listened and taken action on what was a completely broken and useless save game feature when I first parted money on TSW. And I never would have spent a penny more if that hadn't been fixed to the extent it was.

People need to complain and call out issues. No, not in a way that's offensive. That's an issue itself. But don't shut down a core, important official forum due to that – especially not in favour of an "off topic" which has nothing to do with the game people come here to discuss.

Someone made a good suggestion about appointing moderators from the community (who would of course be given a strict set of guidelines so they can't simplify remove posts due to some personal dislike). Other forums have operated like that for years, I'm sure.

 

I want to repeat my comment concerning the GD and Offtopic and candacedtg suggestion/question to keep one or the other:
These topics are a vent for us gamers. They keep the, well, offtopic stuff, and the for the community most important topics out of "Feedback" "Troubleshooting" and "Announcements" most of the time. So actually they HELP to keep a forum tidy, with the right amount of management. Besides that, these two topics in question are the most important condensation point where community is formed. Man do we wish all the community managers would paticipate more in these. But, as I stated way back on page one. You all are now the PR-Team. We are not on the same page anymore with the announcement of closing GD and OT. This forum will change into an announcement plattform as so many forums from companys did. Since my experience with DTG my hopes are extremly low for a change of mind.
So thank you all for the nice time, stay safe and keep hydrated especially these days!

 

For me this IS the reason to have the forum! In Discord information and critique is drowned in the ever flowing chat. Yes people might answer you, critique you and even challenge you. But that is the purpose. That creates discussion, enhances ideas, sharpens your thoughts. In discord nobody reads the messages in the past, it is just flowing live chat and topics are discussed as they go. People are going to miss that discussion, view points are not brought to the matter. We lose the ideas.

This is why forums are important and keep the talking points free, not to be moderated in strict topics. Of course toxicity and bad behavior need to dealt with.

 

A good business would do a root cause analysis and invest in fixing that root cause. What is the common root cause of the ire and vexation in the forum? Hint: the root cause is not related to having a forum.

 

"Constructive Criticism only"

Oh come on.

If I buy a DLC and it's in a broken state either on release or becomes broken later down the road, I'm going to criticise it, it's my money I've spent.

People can be critical of something without attacking others.

I am on the Discord group but it's a real mess, comments disappear quickly, scrolling for them can take a long time.

Here, it's easy to keep up with conversations.

 

There is another aspect of this that needs considering, and that is DTG's ability to actually resource this forum. DTG strikes me as a Pullup Entertainment entity that's in crisis. It's flagship product has significant long-standing problems that it seems unable to correct. Other titles have been dropped, developers on other titles have been made redundant and even the timing of the forum changes suggests a timeline being dictated by external events, as it looks very much like they want to complete the forum contraction by month end.

I'd be amazed if the marketing dept in general, and the community management team in particular, isn't being shrunk or moved to other activities. I don't think they'll have the resources to keep on managing everything as is. Whether they are cutting the right things is the big question. In my view General Discussion should be retained but be more strictly moderated. That will require a bit more effort short term but will reduce the load once some people learn to control their emotions in public.

 

Interesting decision. I don't have time to sit monitoring a live chat on Discord for something that might be interesting or useful to me. I like the general discussion on the forums because I can go back and read topics that are interesting to me and ignore anything else. There have been some fantastic informational posts on here over the years that you would not get on discord, or they would simply be lost in the noise and disappear.

I get the feeling that DTG know that TSW in it's current guise is coming to an end and are preparing for something new further down the line.

 

Thank you DTG Harry that does help explain it. I apologise if my post came across as short tempered.

 

But on the other hand we are being told you are taking away the whole dish because you can no longer remove only the extra seasoning...

 

maybe a good thing to get the general temper a bit down would be to elaborate more on where the "general discussion" topics are going to shift, like in which section will those topics be in, since they arent exactly the same as feedback (at least not always)

otherwise, personally I am fine, I am sure there will be space to discuss things here, just different location

 

something about if it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. people clearly aren’t willing to try to give it a go, because we’re relatively happy with how things are at the moment, despite the increased toxicity in recent months. besides, where will we give feedback to the changes once this subforum is gone?

 

This thread has seen more responses from Candace, Alex, Harry and Jan than I've seen in any of the "feedback" threads for months on end. And that's the problem. Either the CM team just don't get support from the team to deliver back to the community factual responses and timely updates, or DTG train colleagues to try not to engage with players as to not get drawn into actually having to provide technical answers. It's 100% obvious that the entire team comes out to market and celebrate new DLC, then they run off and hide. [I could pull up multiple threads at this point but that wouldn't be fair on any particular CM].

DTG ask to be held account and actively want feedback good or bad, but when players vent frustrations the DTG line is to ignore or publish some wishy washy everyone is to blame but no one is to blame, it will never happen again, apart from the last time and the next time and we listen definitely (class 90 response) but then role out the same bug juicy carrot with different terminology to convince players that the same issues are being fixed, when it seems DTG cannot do so.

In TSW5 is was "Core Issues" - those pesky little varments, they must be someone else's fault.
in TSW6 its "Optimisations" - everyone is working hard, we just discovered these after so many years.

We have so many CM but so little. That's an inherent DTG problem.

 

that’s fair enough, i think most of us would be willing to give it a go but i don’t see how it’ll make things easier for us as a community in the long run

 

Ironically, in that analogy, any time I am in a restaurant and it turns out a member of my party has a problem with a particular ingredient, they DO take away the dish, but the thing is, they replace it free of charge with something more to the person's liking.

 

I'm certainly not willing to give the chances a go. Removall of the biggest and most used part of the forum can't have anything but negative effects on the community as a whole. It stifles discussion. All one has to do is scroll through and see threads that don't really fit anywhere else. What use is a forum if we, as users can only make threads relating to either suggestions or issues and troubleshooting?

Look at some of the more popular threads. Awesome service mode runs. Doesn't fit anywhere else. That thread that popped up a few days ago about linked journeys, doesn’t fit anywhere else. I even saw one CM say it could go in suggestions...? It's not a suggestion for future add ons at all? What? I don't understand that logic at all. Monthly masteries thread could at a push be moved to player troubleshooting and issues, because it often is people reporting that masteries are broken, but even then, that isn't the only thing it's used for. People use it to try to guess what the challenges may be, and inform others on what the challenges are. The fact that it has remained in general discussion for this long also implies that the moderators and CMs believe it belongs there.

What about the Jetwash enhancements and the weather/annotation app threads? I've never interacted with those threads, as a console user, but they're pretty popular, but what other section do they fit in?

 

This would be the sensible outcome. For too long, GD has been cluttered with duplicate topics because some people insist on starting their own thread when others exist, or giving feedback in GD rather than the actual feedback threads. Clamping down on duplicate threads in the Suggestions sub-forum wouldn't go amiss either; we've been told quality over quantity, but a 'the more, the merrier' attitude seems to exist which hasn't been squashed in a way it has been on Discord.

Equally, though, DTG need to stop duplicating threads themselves in the Dovetail Live Article Discussion sub-forum.

 

Something needs to be done about useless, one line suggestions as well, imo

 

Nowhere more so than Preston to Crewe where we had the ongoing thread in GD, the It’s Out Now thread in Dovetail Live then the route specific thread in the Feedback Forum. Where might I add, the mods were efficiently moving anything they deemed not directly as feedback to guess where - oh yes, the thread in GD.

Also seems to have spread to the official Facebook page. Announcement about release of the HIS GP60 pack to which I commented I won’t be buying as a result of of the Forum changes (and other concerns/not really of interest) but it appears to have been removed. So much for, use our other social media outlets to discuss the game in general. George Orwell could write a book about it… DTG thought control alive and kicking. Really making me more and more inclined to delete the whole game and try to forget it even existed.

 

Well benefit of the doubt then, as FB does have a habit of burying comments. Which is exactly why it is no substitute for a good, decent, emergent and structured forum thread.

 

What does this actually look like though? You've just said that the GD is being removed alongside the OT. Is this a place where DTG are going to make official discussion threads for content? What about when the community have come up with some great threads: Steam a realistic challenge, connected journeys, Mastery. These sorts of threads need to be encouraged as they keep the game fresh.

Again I'm all for stricter moderation. Protect the staff and the community. Please it does need it. I'm just not convinced cutting out general discussion and off topic posts are the way to do it.

Is there a way of using an approval system for new threads? So we don't get duplicates or needless threads posted? The GD and OT sections don't get that many new threads every day so can you moderate thread creation against a list of guidelines?

There has to be some way to allow community discussion in a healthier environment. Because so far I haven't read anything about the changes which has made me think okay I'll give it a go?

 

I think some of the extra "seasoning" comes with frustration. It is pretty frustrating to report same scenario is broken after many years with no fixes. And when this happens time and time again, people will get frustrated because they don't see the change. And now I think many of us see this new DTG move to sweep problems under the rug and call it. You wont be getting feedback as much as you did before the forum changes, but scenarios will still have game breaking bugs they are just not reported anymore.

After the time people will vote with their wallets and DTG is wondering how come people don't buy the content we don't even have bugs anymore!

 

This forum is the place where i feel connected with a community who share the same niche hobby.

It is this place that makes me feel connected to Train Sim World.
The trainsim community is more than just a game.

It feels like DTG is taking my TSW family away, it makes me sad.

After all these years it feels like a slap in the face.

I dont like discord it is chaotic

Thanks everyone for the nice years and
Au revoir

 

I believe Jan stated they could go in Suggestions which seems more than a little barmy for general gameplay threads. And yes, worth repeating if anything should go should be the Suggestions forum. Most (not all) either dupes, poorly written, one liners or an essay to rival War And Peace. None of which stand a cat in hell’s chance of ever getting made.

 

"give it a go"
Give what a go? Once the open discussion part is removed, it's gone for good along with probably 90% of user interest. Little more left than a glorified bug report ticket system. There won't be much more but a dying husk of a once active forum to "give a go" at.

There's still time to walk back and pretend it was an out of season april fool's joke, btw.

 

There is a complete feedback forum. If people don't post in that due to some petulance, "well DTG took my toys away" attitude, then that is on that individual person.

I wonder how many of the "I'm not playing anymore" brigade will be buying DLC in the future, most I suspect.

 

Given a choice, yes the Discord is the greater misuse of resources.

 

Yes there is! But if people keep posting, things don't get fixed, what is the point of that forum? People will try to voice their concerns on some other place where is more discussion. Keep ignoring the voices and you will see the consequences.

And I don't think it is "some petulance" for DTG. People actually care about the game and the content. They just want to make it better or you know not crash every time at the same place.

For this day I have not be able to run "international rescue" scenario. And that is little bit frustrating.

 

Not sure why the Forum isn't just volunteer moderated anyway.

 

Well I can't see why starting a thread in general discussion is more likely to get something fixed than in a thread designed for players to leave feedback.

 

I honestly don't see "too much discussion" as a big issue. If someone posts a one-line post and it disappears from no responses, it's not a problem. The only issue would be behavior on the forum, not "too many posts." That's literally what a discussion forum is for. Sounds like people taking on too much by micromanaging. As long as the content doesn't violate community standards, just leave it.

People will choose what to post on and what to ignore.

 

I agree. No need for insults or illegal websites. However, when 99% are NOT doing that, punishing the 99% who have no ability to police the 1% seems a bit penial. Now if you had the forum policed by volunteer community mods for rule violations, then there wouldn't be a huge workload on the DTG staff.

I figured that was already a thing all these years that you'd been mobilizing your huge passionate fan base for that and it wasn't paid full timers doing this. Kind of surprised that this resources isn't being used.

 

Because the "Feedback" threads aren't created by players.

That's the problem.

 

Is it? They are the threads which are apparently monitored for issues.

Who monitors a thread on the general discussion forum, especially when it gets muddied by arguments or disagreements?

 

Out of interest, what happened to the additional forum moderators that were selected from the community to support the forum day to day running .?

 

yeah, especially when being polite literally doesnt cost anything or require exceptional effort

 

You are making an entirely different point than mine.
I'm not saying it's "more likely to be fixed" in Discussion.

I'm saying Feedback forums won't provide feedback on things that DTG doesn't already know about. Players can't create threads in Feedback, so how would DTG know what they don't know? And they only create Feedback threads on DLC...not on anything specific to the core or game in general.

If I have a general game issue, DTG doesn't know about it, I can't TELL them about it since I can't create a thread.

If it gets brought up in GD, then it's at least a chance to tell someone because you CAN make a thread, and it's not tied to something else or told "well that doesn't belong here." The beauty of GD is that you can post anything, even if it doesn't "fit" into a box created by DTG.

If it has to be moved to that section (like suggestions or bug report) then that's easy enough to do. However, the thread exists...whereas you can't make a feedback thread so many things would never be known about at all.

That's what GD is for.

Not that it's "more effective" but that it catches things that wouldn't exist or be known.

That and it's where COMMUNITY exists. Where would the "awesome services" thread go otherwise? Where would general opinion polls go? Or any other general community interaction not tied to a specific DLC?

At best you can say "Off Topic" but.... it's not "off topic" since much of it is about the game still and then you just have General Discussion with a different name. Off Topic is in particular for non-TSW stuff. GD has a unique place and role.

 

It’s not just that, but there have been pretty significant changes to routes that so-happened to be heavily discussed in GD. Notably the TSW2 version of SEHS received lots of discussion & received seldom seen updates between preview & release.

WCMLS was another hot topic in GD, notably one of few routes that got consistent large updates.

The feedback threads of course serve their use as they are, but typically those have always been more technically oriented where players rightly put the genuinely critical issues, however the creative side of feedback more often than not comes from GD.

Also, unless they plan to change when they put discussion articles for specific content up, we’ve always had the community discussion posts surrounding known routes - often months before a DTG post we can comment on is posted.

Those points specifically are where my main issue is with this decision, I’d like to be able to discuss a route without having to converse around bug reports, I’d also like to leave my bug reports without the thread being filled with discussion. Removing GD is going to absolutely tank any excitement about inbound content as you’ll have to wait until DTG want to make that post, which as above happens much much later after it’s become known.

 

Who here would be willing to volunteer as moderators if asked? I'm pretty sure that'd be the next objection "we can't find anyone to help with the workload?" I'd do it if pushed, but I think there are far better people here with a better temperament for it =-)

 

And closing down the general forum section will help in what way? It's not like that people who cannot be bothered with using the forum search functionality will be bothered not placing their repretitive topic into another forum section, if the general section is not there....

Anyway, this whole post reads... weird to me... In way it's like a dev saying that he/she spends too much time fixing bugs, as an explanation for why the company he/she works for is reducing the ability of people to report bugs...

It's not like you, candacedtg, is clamping down on the forum, becasue it's too much work for you... This is not your personal forum, or something where you dedicate your free time into (if you do... you realy shouldn't ).. It is a company ran forum, and I imagine that all those points you're presenting here to us, were also presented to those people that hold the reigns...

And the decision, of DTG, was that the benefits of having an active community forum is not worth the investment it takes to have that forum moderated. You can try to sugar-coat it with buzzwords like 'strealime', 'effectivity'..etc, or try to play the empathy card. But it's a company business decision.

And yes, feedbacks section, creative section..etc will stay open, but you must be aware that, with this decision, the volume of people visiting this forums will decrease, thus the activity also in those sections will take a dive. Because lowering the active userbase is, I feel, the only way how to decrease the load on the moderators.

 

It's quite clear to see the reason DTG are doing this to stop general customer criticism

There is another way this can be achieved and we, not DTG, will be in control of

Stop being customers of DTG

We have to face facts DTG are an awful company with poor practices in place to try to cover up that fact.

I mean seriously, they said on the last roadmap stream that they have mitigated blurry textures with products going forward. That statement was proved to be a lie within 24hrs with the release of Trent Valley

Time to put the sword to this company by closing our wallets. It's the only way things will change